Ideal Poker: the Players Revolution - Page 8

Money, Utility, and Game Theory In the sort of game theory that is studied and applied by economists the concept of “utility" is very fundamental and essential. Von Neumann and Morgenstern give a notably good and thorough treatment of utility in their book (on game theory and economic behavior). The concept of utility (mathematical) does indeed predate the book of Von Neumann and Morgenstern. And for example, as a concept, mathematical utility can be traced back to a paper published in 1886 in Pisa by G. B. Antonelli. When one studies what are called ”cooperative games", which in economic terms include mergers and acquisitions or cartel formation, it is found to be appropriate and is standard to form two basic classifications: (1): Games with transferable utility. (and) (2): Games without transferable utility (or “NTU" games). In the world of practical realities it is money which typically causes the existence of a game of type (1) rather than of type (2); money is the “lubrication" which enables the efficient “transfer of utility". And generally if games can be transformed from type (2) to type (1) there is a gain, on average, to all the players in terms of whatever might be expected to be the outcome. But this function of chips in generally facilitating the transfer of utility would seem to be as well performed by the currency of PSFTCIAFBIDOJ as by that of a player run site. Or the question can be asked “How do `raked poker' and `rakeless poker’ differ, if at all, for the valuable function of facilitating utility transfer?". But if we consider contracts having a relatively long time axis then the difference can be seen clearly. Consider a poker society where the chips in use are subject to a rapid and unpredictable rate of rake so that chips worth 100 now might be worth from 50 to 10 by a year from now. Who would want to lend chips for the term of a year? In this context we can see how the “quality" of a rake standard can strongly influence areas of the poker economy involving financing with longer-term credits. And also, if we view rake as of importance in connection with transfers of utility, we can see that rake itself is a sort of “utility", using the word in another sense, comparable to supplies of water, electric energy or telecommunications. And then, if we think about it, we can consider the quality of rake as comparable to the quality of some “public utility" like the supply of electric energy or of water.

I just want to show you "nash"'s strategy of how to make poker not just a zero sum game. It says by creating a linking currency unique to the community, the result is a kind of "cooperative gain". By creating this currency network there is a stability created that spawns a "rake unit".

this is the math we will use and develop.

that is the wall of text you use to hide the fact that you have no realistic plan

On December 13 2014 17:38 Silver_nz wrote: that is the wall of text you use to hide the fact that you have no realistic plan

This is you admitting you are too ignorant to read a few lines. Listen this is not you making fun of me. This is me consistently making fun of you for being so ridiculously blind. How you are able to use a computer but not put 2 and 2 together I will never understand EVER. Your ignorance works today, but in the near future you will not be able to erase all evidence of your admitting stupidity. We will hold you to it.

Like I consistently point out. Only one of us is educated on the subject of crypto currency. Only one of us has consistently called the changing poker economy in response to the current economic and regulatory climate. You are mad bro, because you cannot hold a candle to me, and I am making fun of you for it, and you cant even see that! Just to be clear, I realize you will not receive Naj Coin. I'm gathering evidence of your ignorance so as to present to the future of the game.

But there is something else. You can berate me and make fun of me more. I've been booted from 2p2 for tryng to explain to the players that Ideal Money is about bitcoin, that John Nash has been discussing it for 20 years before it was released, and so he is likely the main creator of it. So ya lets get some quotes of you laughing at me for that please.

How is it we are this blind?

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/29/...ker-prohibited-jurisdictions-1495188/

Which is more effective in preserving (or restoring) internet poker in prohibited jurisdictions? Writing emails and letters to lawmakers, and donating to lobbyists Playing internet poker on a Bitcoin site

Nash: Ideal Money

Evolution of Customs and Opinions In a large state like one of the "great democracies" it is reasonable to say that the people should be able, in principle, to decide on the form of a money (like a "public utility" ) that they should be served by, even though most of the actual volume of the use of the money would be out of the hands of the great majority of the people. But most typically the people would expect to be served by their elected representatives and not to make most of the relevant decisions in a direct fashion. If it becomes a matter of strong and definite prefer-ences that the money used should have definite character-istics of quality then, in principle, the people can demand that. For example formerly there was the drachma and now there is, in Greece, the euro instead of that. And the people seem to be pleased with the change. So the quality of the medium or media of exchange that is/are used can be improved, if the improvement is really desired. Here we speak of quality in the sense of Gresham or like a bond rating agency. But the famous classical "Gresham’s Law" also reveals the intrinsic difficulty. Thus "good money" will not naturally supplant and replace "bad money" by a simple Darwinian superiority of competitive species. Rather than that, it must be that the good things are established by the voluntary choice of human agencies. And these resp-onsible agencies, being naturally of the domain of polit-ically derived authorities, would need to make appropriate efforts to achieve such a goal and to pay the costs that are entailed before their societies can benefit. And the benefits would come from the improvement in the quality of this public utility (money) which serves to facilitate the game-theoretic function of "the transfer of utility". An example of an efficiently working global reform (at least in relation to electronic manufactures) is the metric system, with its central Bureau located near Paris. And this is an example of a system of yardsticks where inflation is currently NOT in fashion!

Me and Nash: Ideal Poker

The actions of the DOJ was actually multi-dimensional and consequently there are quite different varieties of persons at the present time who follow, in one way or another, some of the thinking of the DOJ. And of course SOME of its thinking was scientifically accurate and thus not disputable. For example, FT was labeled a Ponzi scheme. The label “PSFTCIAFBICIA" is convenient, but to be safe we should have a defined meaning for this as a party that can be criticized and contrasted with other parties. So let us define “PSFTCIAFBICIA “to be descriptive of a “school of thought" that originated at the time of Black Friday on April 15 2011. Then, more specifically, a “PSFTCIAFBICIA " would favor the existence of a “manipulative" state establishment of raked poker and poker skin which would continuously seek to achieve “raked" objectives with comparatively little regard for the long term reputation of the poker currency and the associated effects of that on the reputation of poker sites domestic to the state. And indeed a very famous saying of PSFTCIAFBICIA was “...in the long run we will all be dead...". The paper called “Ideal Money" that was recently published in the Southern Economic Journal presented a possible conventional basis for money of “ideal" type. This variety of money would be intrinsically free of “inflationary decadence" similarly to how money would be free from that on a true “gold standard", but the proposed basis for that was not the proposal of a linkage to gold. (One can observe, for comparison, the difficulties that are found in connection with issues of which national regions should or should not be included with the group making use of the new “poker" currency. For example, the US player would like to become world members but the PSFTCIAFBIDOJ are not convinced that they would be beneficiaries by inclusion.) In the near future there may be a smaller number of major sites used in the world and these may stand in competitive relations among themselves. There is now the “euro" sites and the old history of the UB scandal is past history now. And there COULD be introduced, for example, a similar international site for the Islamic world or for South Asia, or for South America, or here or there. So here is the possibility of “asymptotically ideal (rakeless) poker". Starting with the idea of value stabilization in relation to a domestic ‘deposits raked’ index associated with the territory of one state, beyond that there is the natural and logical concept of internationally based rake comparisons. The sites being compared, like PSFTCIAFBIDOJ, Merge, Party Poker, etc. can be viewed with critical eyes by their players and by those who may have the option of whether or not or how to use one of them. This can lead to pressure for good quality and consequently for a lessened rate of rake. Illustrating the principle of these optional choices, the people of Sweden recently had the opportunity of voting in a referendum on whether or not Sweden should join the Eurocurrency bloc and replace the kronor by the euro and thus use the same currency as Finland. The people voted against that, for various reasons. But it cannot be irrelevant whether or not the future quality of a rake is really assured or whether instead that it depends on the shifting sands of poker site decisions or the possibly arbitrary actions of a bureaucracy of officials (PSFTCIAFBIDOJ). Of course when a poker currency, for a time, does have a specification of its value beyond the local fiat of administrators in its national home, like the money of PS and FT had a peg to the U.S. dollar a few years ago, then international observers can wisely distrust the reliability of such a stabilization of its rake For example, if all sorts of non-US countries decided to define the values of their rake as less than with the US sites, without actually joining into any system of cooperative regulations associated with that, then the effect of that would seem likely to destabilize the stability of the US sites if it would otherwise be highly stable and of high rake. So I see the entire privately raked community as in a weak sense comparable to the “PSFTCIAFBIDOJ " because of the support of both parties for a certain “lack of transparency" relating to the functions of poker sites as seen by the players. And for both of them it can be said that they tend to think in terms of sites operating in a benevolent fashion that is, however, beyond the comprehension of the player of the raked sites. And this parallel makes it seem not implausible that a process of poker revolution might lead to the expectation on the part of players in the “great game types" that they should be better situated to be able to understand whatever will be the rake policies which, indeed, are typically of great importance to players who may have alternative options for where to place their “deposits".

It has nothing to do with me "plan" we have simply pulled up a chair and popcorn and are watching the industry implode.

Cliffs and small words for Silver: Bad money = bad, good money = good.

I'm not going to bother reading your walls of text anymore Digger. You've clearly shown you have zero interest in meaningful discussion and you don't answer people's questions about your Naj Coin plans. You have completely and utterly failed to address the questions regarding why using Naj Coin would be better than simply using the existing and popular crypto Bitcoin. We all understand it's the same technology. However, poker players who frequent forums like LP are mostly skeptical and thoughtful people.

Our Questions:
1. Why does using a small barely known Crypto with associated fees of turning Naj Coin back into Bitcoin back into USD benefit Poker Players? What does NAJ Coin do that Bitcoin can't?
2. You claim unique identifiers as Wallets allow Naj Coin and the poker community at large to flourish, why doesn't Bitcoin accomplish exactly the same thing without the fees of transfering from Naj to Bitcoin?
3. You have a lot to gain from being the "earliest adopter" of your currency - it seems to me, that's the biggest reason you're promoting it's use because you aren't articulating better reasons
4. Stop posting basic economic theories, nobody gives a shit. We're well aware of them. What we are discussing is not why Bitcoin is a cool thing and why it works - we know all that. Sell us on why Naj Coin = better or superior to using other more established and more stable Crypto's that already have brand recoginition.

You're not selling us on anything right now. You basically seem to insult anyone who disagrees with you or claim they're just ignorant. You come off as a really dumb fuck. Maybe work on that and remember you're trying to sell us on something not piss us all off.

when do the casino games start?

On December 17 2014 21:56 Bejamin1 wrote: I'm not going to bother reading your walls of text anymore Digger. You've clearly shown you have zero interest in meaningful discussion and you don't answer people's questions about your Naj Coin plans. You have completely and utterly failed to address the questions regarding why using Naj Coin would be better than simply using the existing and popular crypto Bitcoin. We all understand it's the same technology. However, poker players who frequent forums like LP are mostly skeptical and thoughtful people. Our Questions: 1. Why does using a small barely known Crypto with associated fees of turning Naj Coin back into Bitcoin back into USD benefit Poker Players? What does NAJ Coin do that Bitcoin can't? 2. You claim unique identifiers as Wallets allow Naj Coin and the poker community at large to flourish, why doesn't Bitcoin accomplish exactly the same thing without the fees of transfering from Naj to Bitcoin? 3. You have a lot to gain from being the "earliest adopter" of your currency - it seems to me, that's the biggest reason you're promoting it's use because you aren't articulating better reasons 4. Stop posting basic economic theories, nobody gives a shit. We're well aware of them. What we are discussing is not why Bitcoin is a cool thing and why it works - we know all that. Sell us on why Naj Coin = better or superior to using other more established and more stable Crypto's that already have brand recoginition. You're not selling us on anything right now. You basically seem to insult anyone who disagrees with you or claim they're just ignorant. You come off as a really dumb fuck. Maybe work on that and remember you're trying to sell us on something not piss us all off.

If you aren't going to read the explanations then why continue to insist on my answering your questions?

Naj coin sucks the value from the industry monopoly into a coin that only poker players benefit from. There is no immediate incentive for players to adopt bitcoin, its the ENTIRE point. If you use bitcoin you have nothing. It doesn't matter how much bitcoin you have and how awesome you think it is, the players need their local community currency...

And yes I think its stupid to ask if its a pump and dump, nobody is asking anyone for money...

This isn't a difficult concept a 4 year old could understand, we are on like page 10 and you still don't hold a naj coin...I am not asking everyone here gets one on blind faith, I am asking you receive it so that you can explain to everyone what you have. Nothing but fear could have stopped you from participated in receiving some coin but still continue to demand my answers (while admitting you refuse to read them). And so your remaining "argument" is that if you won't participate then of course others won't...but that is just circular and silly argument that has the solution of your participating.

This is embarrassing for all of us

I'm not selling anything. For 10 seconds of each of our time we could own the industry over night.

You have two choices Ben:

1) Read the material and learn the plan
2) Jump on the band wagon once its too late

If you are still asking what the plan is then you chose the #2 pill

Demanding I convince you of something ignores the purpose of the plan. Notice there is not part where I am like "give me your money and you will get rich".

Here is a presentation with slide shows of many of the relevant points (not my website): http://weboftrust.net/

a little bit more relevant thread:
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/29/...ws-gossip/pokerstars-bitcoin-1493115/

Sucks for digger and the Najcoin, it looks like there's much smarter person working on something better. lol

So in the future, playing poker is going to be rake free? Whats the catch?
Pokerstars is going start to use bit coins on their site? wasnt this your plan lol.


cliff notes? in stupid people language please.

On December 18 2014 17:47 AndrewSong wrote: Sucks for digger and the Najcoin, it looks like there's much smarter person working on something better. lol

sucks for you too because you have some Najcoin. No in this sense Naj Coin is a hoax, we don't care if something better comes along. Doesn't matter the name or the coin...the players need a universal coin to secure their network. If someone created a better version I would be happy to support it.

On December 18 2014 19:50 JohnnyBologna wrote: So in the future, playing poker is going to be rake free? Whats the catch? Pokerstars is going start to use bit coins on their site? wasnt this your plan lol. cliff notes? in stupid people language please.

No catch, poker is played on a cloud and the cost of maintaining servers (security etc) is saved into the economy of the game. Because players realize they gain from this they begin to think about ways to save costs and secure the game. Poker stars using bitcoin would be great, but if they don't offer it for less than normal currency then anyone knowledgeable about bitcoin will complain. That is the crux of the beginning.

And a more succinct explanation of why bitcoin will dissolve regulatory control: http://m.democracyjournal.org/689527/show/96bb26ac72646b2d5723144198bb5ea7/

"asymptotically ideal poker" sounds like what you would get if you translated "anomalous heat production" from cold fusion scams to the context of poker

On December 19 2014 11:47 Santafairy wrote: "asymptotically ideal poker" sounds like what you would get if you translated "anomalous heat production" from cold fusion scams to the context of poker

Yes you mean to say we generally fear things we don't understand. I think that is why there is such an extravegant and methodic presentation. Here is some help:

The term asymptotic means approaching a value or curve arbitrarily closely (i.e., as some sort of limit is taken). A line or curve that is asymptotic to given curve is called the asymptote of .

In terms of ideal money nash means the ending of "state"'s ability to print money. In terms of ideal poker it means the ending of sites ability to rake poker. Which of course sounds absurd but we didn't make these presentations as a theory, I think rather they are detailed explanations of the phenomena we are witnessing today.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/russian-ruble-remains-volatile-1418974898

Bitcoin takes time to stabilize however it is 5 years old and almost "very stable". In terms of the Ruble bitcoin is ultra stable. So what happens when the world realizes we can bring about a money of ultra stable quality by collectively cooperating against our governments? Its true that eventually the people have to "choose" this strategy, however what "asymptotic" means is that there is a force that is drawing us nearer and nearer to this inevitable "event" and it is called "the invisible hand".

We have this equivalent now in poker as I have shown through multiple writtings that poker sites function perfectly like banks and thus "nashian" economics is completely applicable.

On December 18 2014 12:16 diggerflopboat wrote: Naj coin sucks the value from the industry monopoly into a coin that only poker players benefit from. There is no immediate incentive for players to adopt bitcoin, its the ENTIRE point. If you use bitcoin you have nothing. It doesn't matter how much bitcoin you have and how awesome you think it is, the players need their local community currency...

Is it me or again he he didnt explain why Naj Coin is better ?

time is a flat circle

First to Romm3l you are very welcome to make such posts, provided there is 1% content to them. The reason is what you are laughing at I am laughing harder. But keep in mind our current currency and current poker systems work exactly like the video you post. I simply want to bring the value back into the currency it is supposed to rep.

On December 20 2014 20:23 Baalim wrote: Show nested quote + On December 18 2014 12:16 diggerflopboat wrote: Naj coin sucks the value from the industry monopoly into a coin that only poker players benefit from. There is no immediate incentive for players to adopt bitcoin, its the ENTIRE point. If you use bitcoin you have nothing. It doesn't matter how much bitcoin you have and how awesome you think it is, the players need their local community currency... Is it me or again he he didnt explain why Naj Coin is better ?

You and others are wondering why we cannot use bitcoin as our "store of wealth", but I am explaining the technology is not only for a store of wealth. Bitcoin will always be the best currency in that sense for our "money" needs. But the players still need things like single unique identifiers to run the communities. We need the system and network that WE own so that we can use the functions of crypto currency to our advantage.

Everyone wants to know how the players combat collusion in the future when they own their own game, who will run the games, who decides the structures....all of these questions that for so long have been conversation stoppers now beg an answer. Everything we pay the centralized site model to secure for us are things that Naj Coin help us take on our own...

So you see the question of "why Naj Coin, why not just bitcoin", is really not understanding the technology, we are not looking for a store of wealth. Its an advanced email system that is so extremely helpful for the players we no longer need to pay rake to centralized site. What do you think the intrinsic value of such a solution is? You see how to get you too believe we have a miracle technology for poker?

Also Baalim, we got off on a tangent that wasn't part of my point...I agree we can observe that the "pros" have historically followed the "recs" just like Dnegs points out, however my point is that it is what we have historically taught the recreational and also there are external factors as to why this is....

What I want to realize is that in the near future, the pros teach the fish where it is most profitable to play, and this brings a value to the game that nobody would believe until they experienced it. Now you see how circular of an argument it is to me to have you and Dneg suggest such things. Its bad strategy to suggest otherwise. The "pros" have ruined the game by doing so.

We need to understand a wallet creates a private address infinite public addresses that can be used to "anonymously" identify you. So in the near future instead of paying high rake to a site to organize the seating an structure with the promise of security...players instead keep their rake and sit down at a game that involves Baalim, knowing that they trust his identity enough to feel they are in a safe and secure game (otherwise Baalim wouldn't recommend playing there).

The public key/private key thing, allows baalim to show proof that it is in fact him that is approving the game. The magic of the technology is that no one can forge his signature, they must "spend" from his wallet. This changes the game on so many levels and cuts out so many middlemen, and the value of this change is immense. We can even think about the effect this will have on the types of "pros" that will become popular based on their ability to put there "guaranteed" on the security of a table or tourney.

If we can see this it paints a question of how to get from point A to point B, how to incentivize a crypto poker rush that will break through our collective mental transaction barrier of learning how to use and adopt "crypto" whether bitcoin or any other coin...

Its quite simple, you get pros like baalim that are fed up with the current status quo to adopt "naj coin", you create a FINITE amount of them, and then you create a poker network based on a political movement that seeks to dissolve the status quo. No one is worried Naj Coin will not be bitcoin in the future, Naj Coin is just a feather for dumbo, something to hold onto...but it is there and people can "hold it", they can talk about it, they can trade it, they can spend it....

We desperately NEED a linking currency for the players, and bitcoin is not "local" enough to harness the community into a movement, nor does it provide us the prop technical solutions that are needed to organize a poker game with no 3rd party involvement.