Ideal Poker: the Players Revolution - Page 3

On December 02 2014 00:25 diggerflopboat wrote: If all these pros like limon Negraneau all the names starting going around saying that *'s is not the site to play on then nobody would play there. And the whole point of this conversation is the over raking of games and if games are over raked it doesn't matter if Negraneau is a fish at some stakes. If it isn't try that pros attract and maintain recreational depositors then why do we give them rake as stars pro contracts that we could use keep in the prizepools and buyins for the games? I believe limon and I ultimately agree, but I think it would take shots and shots of hard liquor to finally arrive at our conclusion. I propose something never brought before the poker community and we clearly have not thought in this line before.

before they pulled out of the US market due to UIGEA, PartyPoker was the #1 poker site, and also had the most fish.

who were their pros that attracted everyone and gave them the biggest player base?

if recreational players chase pros, Full Tilt should have completely dominated the market prior to their scandal unfolding, since they had by far and away the biggest number of recognizable pros. instead they were behind or even with Stars.

my point isn't that pros don't matter, but they're just one way of marketing a site.

also i didn't read the thread so i'm not responding to this in whatever broader context you're talking about (i guess it's about making a new poker site), i'm just responding to the assertion that fish follow pros rather than the reverse.

On December 02 2014 11:46 bigredhoss wrote: before they pulled out of the US market due to UIGEA, PartyPoker was the #1 poker site, and also had the most fish. who were their pros that attracted everyone and gave them the biggest player base?

You aren't addressing the context of the argument. And one could argue there were pros on party, and that the recs were destined to leave to sites with "better pros". Keep in mind the phenomenon I describe gets stronger in the future when "recs" are generally smarter compared to today (ie they look for lower raked games).

if recreational players chase pros, Full Tilt should have completely dominated the market prior to their scandal unfolding, since they had by far and away the biggest number of recognizable pros. instead they were behind or even with Stars. my point isn't that pros don't matter, but they're just one way of marketing a site. also i didn't read the thread so i'm not responding to this in whatever broader context you're talking about (i guess it's about making a new poker site), i'm just responding to the assertion that fish follow pros rather than the reverse.

What you point out seemingly reflects the reality, and is the general thesis or point of mine, Full Tilt was a growing competitor until the US gov turned PS/FT into an industry monopoly.

You see its the government interference and monopoly that has everyone confused about the way poker economics works. But we have an anti monopoly strategy available that we didn't before because of new math and new technology. I wish to present and explain it to anyone that think they might understand (and be useful).

There are now some threads started in the nvg section of the global players forum it would be helpful to eventually start the discussion on what is "ideal poker"

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/29/...ws-gossip/pokerstars-bitcoin-1493115/

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showpost.php?p=45399701&postcount=83

On December 01 2014 22:50 bigredhoss wrote: Show nested quote + On December 01 2014 13:05 diggerflopboat wrote:   On December 01 2014 12:01 bigredhoss wrote: um i didnt read the rest of your posts but obviously baal is right about pros chasing fish its not obvious, its not logical, and it doesn't reflect reality. If you read my post I pointed out baal and other pros get paid by sites, why? To attract recreational players! Baal points out that live pros move to the best casinos and of course those pros get immense benefits from those casinos to play there. You can market the game both ways and perceive it either way but you cannot tell me that the "pros" are doomed to play where the recs play. Old school pros simply fail to explain to the recs why lower rake is important for both the rec and the pro. Having Baal and Dneg argue vs this just supports my point. it's not uncommon to find games with stars pros running 2-5 handed for hours without filling up. if one fish sits, the game fills in seconds and soon has a 20-person waitlist. the reverse never happens. the fact that a small % of pros are paid to attract players is not an argument that fish generally follow pros. in some cases the "pros" attract players simply because the pros themselves are fish, i.e. when negreanu sits in highstakes cash games.

If those pro's were Sammy Farha and Daniel Negreanu etc instead of "Nanonoko" it would be different. Most of the team online and the guys acctually playing a lot online most recs never heard about

I feel like this is a good plan:

*Everybody gets behind bitcoin poker
*Site gets lots of regs that quit pokerstars
*Pokerstars feels the pressure and lowers the rake
*Goes on massive campaign and goes back to 2005 perks and traffic
*We then ditch buttcoin and go back to Lee Jones loving arms
*LPers start quitting jobs/uni to go back to playing and ball like Rekrul again
*Profit?

Here are a few facts:

- All pros follow fish
- 99% of poker profesionals are not famous
- some fish follow 1% famous pros


So again, I obviously understand the marketable value of personalities in poker and fish will join tot poker for that, but poker professionals will always try to find edges and game selecting (following fish) is a big edge.

friends a worldwide movement among poker players is happening right now (except on 2p2, the only credible poker forum in existence, where i get insta banned). let us ask ourselves, what is "ideal bullshit", or "asymptotic trolling forums and trying to coin inane phrases with double quotes"? well it all goes back to a lecture by well known mathematician and schizophrenic Russel Crowe who prophesied that one day the masses would become free of PSFTBBJWTFBBQLOLLMAO by all following well known pros such as Baalim to adopt a dodgy bitcoin variant and mass migrate their play from pokerstars. The revolution is happening right now, you better believe it because i have some super complicated math i keep alluding to which is too hard for you to understand, but trust me it is the next e-mail
+ Show Spoiler +

On December 02 2014 21:26 whamm! wrote: I feel like this is a good plan: *Everybody gets behind bitcoin poker *Site gets lots of regs that quit pokerstars *Pokerstars feels the pressure and lowers the rake *Goes on massive campaign and goes back to 2005 perks and traffic *We then ditch bitcoin and go back to Lee Jones loving arms *LPers start quitting jobs/uni to go back to playing and ball like Rekrul again *Profit?

Yes this is the plan, there is more too it, and its barely a plan but more of an economic outlook of what will happen. I have been trying to explain for the last year that bitcoin has destroyed the centralized site model (ie PS/FT). Crypto-currency creates a liquid market. Stars isn't a monopoly because it is the best product, its a monopoly because of regulatory controls laid down on black friday. Bitcoin changes this landscape dramatically. And btw you won't be "ditching" bitcoin, we will be ditching government fiat currencies within a year.

On December 03 2014 00:07 Baalim wrote: Here are a few facts: - All pros follow fish - 99% of poker profesionals are not famous - some fish follow 1% famous pros So again, I obviously understand the marketable value of personalities in poker and fish will join tot poker for that, but poker professionals will always try to find edges and game selecting (following fish) is a big edge.

I don't mean to argue you in this context. I have read some of your writing around on the game and I respect it, you don't have the traditional view. I do believe we agree on much of it put approach it from a different perspective (this is something I can't say to many people). I mean to say on a large economic scale, the gravity follows the mass of pros. And also I have written a paper to re define the word pro to the most skilled players or those that consider poker regular income (ie not likely raph nadel). If all stars pros left stars because it had a reputation for being not profitable not friendly to its customer then the site would become barren. It would NOT because soft and so then the pros would come back because all the recreational players remained.

But please keep it in context, because I DO agree with much that you point out, but my point is that the players have an intricate network amongst the global population and the top tier of "regs" and "pros" on all of the forums can in fact reach down to nearly the entire field of players amongst the world. So then is it so far to suggest that if we had our only universal crypto coin (which we do) that pays out to early adopters, that we could "naturally" create a crypto network based on the incentive.

Let us be reminded, bitcoin did exactly that, and when it was proposed nobody would have done anything but ridicule it...and that poker is going through an incredible transition period right now.

I'd really like to send you some Universal Player Coin so that you can argue against it from the other side of "understanding" it by actually doing it. It takes 10 seconds to sign for a wallet, anyone can do it....its a well establish company in the bitcoin world, click the link, save your wallet password (you can't recover a lost wallet password), and copy/paste me your wallet address...

On December 03 2014 06:44 Romm3l wrote: friends a worldwide movement among poker players is happening right now (except on 2p2, the only credible poker forum in existence, where i get insta banned). let us ask ourselves, what is "ideal bullshit", or "asymptotic trolling forums and trying to coin inane phrases with double quotes"? well it all goes back to a lecture by well known mathematician and schizophrenic Russel Crowe who prophesied that one day the masses would become free of PSFTBBJWTFBBQLOLLMAO by all following well known pros such as Baalim to adopt a dodgy bitcoin variant and mass migrate their play from pokerstars. The revolution is happening right now, you better believe it because i have some super complicated math i keep alluding to which is too hard for you to understand, but trust me it is the next e-mail + Show Spoiler +

I am not a dumb dumb head because you cannot understand. It's ok dude grownups are talking.

On December 03 2014 00:07 Baalim wrote: Here are a few facts: - All pros follow fish - 99% of poker profesionals are not famous - some fish follow 1% famous pros So again, I obviously understand the marketable value of personalities in poker and fish will join tot poker for that, but poker professionals will always try to find edges and game selecting (following fish) is a big edge.

Did you not attract a ton of mexican recreationals ?

On December 04 2014 07:08 VanDerMeyde wrote: Show nested quote + On December 03 2014 00:07 Baalim wrote: Here are a few facts: - All pros follow fish - 99% of poker profesionals are not famous - some fish follow 1% famous pros So again, I obviously understand the marketable value of personalities in poker and fish will join tot poker for that, but poker professionals will always try to find edges and game selecting (following fish) is a big edge. Did you not attract a ton of mexican recreationals ?

Not sure if you are trolling but I already said it, we are a very small minority of sponsored pros who actively are paid to promote poker and attract new players to poker, but I play every day with thousands of other pros who arent known and dont attract any new players, they just live from poker.


So thinking a big name pro will dump a big contract to switch to this bitcoin site makes no sense.

All the regs wont touch that site unless it has enough recreational players, so... back to my main point, recreational players are the ones who drive the poker economy and the games.

Recreational players are way less likely to use bitcoin and they care less about rake than regs, so I dont see this working easily.

I really dont have anything more to say about this, I dont want to throw any more dirt in his idea, good luck in this and any future endeavors.

Not sure if you are trolling but I already said it, we are a very small minority of sponsored pros who actively are paid to promote poker and attract new players to poker, but I play every day with thousands of other pros who arent known and dont attract any new players, they just live from poker. So thinking a big name pro will dump a big contract to switch to this bitcoin site makes no sense. All the regs wont touch that site unless it has enough recreational players, so... back to my main point, recreational players are the ones who drive the poker economy and the games. Recreational players are way less likely to use bitcoin and they care less about rake than regs, so I dont see this working easily. I really dont have anything more to say about this, I dont want to throw any more dirt in his idea, good luck in this and any future endeavors.

I wish you would not make your own conception of what the "idea" is. It is not a site. It is a "coin", and you spend and receive it. There is no new site needed. Its a universal poker coin and it gains value from the efficient cryto network it creates.

This is the new technology, learn it today or learn it in a year...it will happen...'

We just fear the unknown so we make ridiculous derails addressing what is not the topic.

1) get wallet 2) get coin

done.

Just semitrolling a bit Baal, good points

He could be Woodbrave for all you know...

I've played on Seals for over a year and I've lost money because of BTC falling. I still keep the site up incase HSNL runs but it has been a complete waste of time and I wouldn't recommend it to anyone.

On December 06 2014 04:09 AndrewSong wrote: I've played on Seals for over a year and I've lost money because of BTC falling. I still keep the site up incase HSNL runs but it has been a complete waste of time and I wouldn't recommend it to anyone.

Today yes, what is your future recommendation?

What I propose is a linking currency between all sites, all players, all poker related services, and even live venues. You already use bitcoin, do you have a counterwallet? https://counterwallet.io/#

Will you get one so you can explain to the members what it is?

I don't see a future in BTC as a replacement for currency. I would not recommend playing on BTC site for a living nor storing considerable portion of your cash in crypto-currency. There is everything wrong with a BTC poker site. The structure it self promotes bots, colluding, cheating and your forced to keep a bankroll in the most volatile currency. All of operating BTC sites have no regulations and show lack of transparency. Seals is undoubtedly the best BTC poker site but it's shady at best and I would trust my money in Bodog over Seals.

On December 06 2014 17:36 AndrewSong wrote: I don't see a future in BTC as a replacement for currency. I would not recommend playing on BTC site for a living nor storing considerable portion of your cash in crypto-currency. There is everything wrong with a BTC poker site. The structure it self promotes bots, colluding, cheating and your forced to keep a bankroll in the most volatile currency. All of operating BTC sites have no regulations and show lack of transparency. Seals is undoubtedly the best BTC poker site but it's shady at best and I would trust my money in Bodog over Seals.

Yes but admittedly you don't know anything about btc, so what would cause you to comment?

What could I not know about BTC that you know? Judging from your posts, it seems that you are blind sided to reality by your love of crypto currency.

On December 06 2014 19:18 AndrewSong wrote: What could I not know about BTC that you know? Judging from your posts, it seems that you are blind sided to reality by your love of crypto currency.

keep walking, grown ups are talking.