Ideal Poker: the Players Revolution - Page 6

I am still beating my head around why you think this wallet is so grand because it's a trustless P2P environment running on a open software. If you weren't aware, wallet like this has been around for a long while and there's constantly new ones popping out. This service is a middle-man that lives off of exchange. It doesn't provide any solution for what I have asked. All the assets, NAJCOIN, or anything you create here requires someone to hold, collect and distribute those assets which carries a counter party risk. Hence the name, Counter party.

Exactly about this. Counterparty seeks to be a DECENTRALIZED exchange, it rides on bitcoin and so by saying "counterparty" its really a play on that it takes the role of a counter party essentially ELIMINATING it.

So what you point out is important, and the exact reason we are having this conversation. We have NOT had this before such ventures as counterparty.

We create our "naj coin", it is fixed, and we get to choose what ever distribution method we want. This is the new technology, first we raise the value of it by spreading the network, and then we create a price by rallying for other poker services to adopt and honor it.

This is what diggerflop sent me that will enlighten you. 100 play money coins...

Yes it took five pages of people calling boogy man before 1 person finally could be an example of how easy our universal poker coin will be to adopt.

Now let me describe the intrinsic value and I want you to argue me on it:

Today’s global poker network might not be readily comparable to Nick Szabo’s extension of Metcalf’s Law:

Metcalfe’s Law states that a value of a network is proportional to the square of the number of its nodes. In an area where good soils, mines, and forests are randomly distributed, the number of nodes valuable to an industrial economy is proportional to the area encompassed.

However if we assume a global internet landscape of Ideal Poker and the general goal is to facilitate the “probabilistic” exchange of chips from the less efficient players to the more efficient players, then the value of the Ideal Poker network becomes comparable to Nick Szabo’s formalization of Adam Smith’s works:

The number of such nodes that can be economically accessed is an inverse square of the cost per mile of transportation. Combine this with Metcalfe’s Law and we reach a dramatic but solid mathematical conclusion: the potential value of a land transportation network is the inverse fourth power of the cost of that transportation. A reduction in transportation costs in a trade network by a factor of two increases the potential value of that network by a factor of sixteen. While a power of exactly 4.0 will usually be too high, due to redundancies, this does show how the cost of transportation can have a radical nonlinear impact on the value of the trade networks it enables.

The networks’ value, is the value that Ideal (and therefore Moral) Poker brings to our society and how Ideal and how Moral the poker network is. The “transportation” cost in the trade network then becomes the “effective rake” (ie site profits per “transaction”).

So the potential value of an Ideal Poker network is the inverse fourth power of the “effective rake”.

This outlines an intrinsic value for a “Poker Coin“

On December 09 2014 23:22 diggerflopboat wrote: the general goal is to facilitate the “probabilistic” exchange of chips from the less efficient players to the more efficient players

don't tell the fish about this.

but yeah, so the value of using counterparty as a base for the poker-coin is that it could quickly establish the poker-coin using proof of stake. The poker-coin could be created to have attributes of fast transaction confirmation times, lobby listings, and cheating countermeasures. The poker-room GUI can be created to reside on players machines, but all the important information is protected in the blockchain. Is that right?

Jesus Christ if I can't understand this, what more Uncle Norman or grandpa? Can't you guys just build the software so people can actually play and try it out? Call me an idiot digger, but this is just way too complicated for a recreational player to grasp. Rake in live casinos is nuts but you see fish line up and play there giving zero fucks because it's idiot proof easy

don't tell the fish about this. but yeah, so the value of using counterparty as a base for the poker-coin is that it could quickly establish the poker-coin using proof of stake. The poker-coin could be created to have attributes of fast transaction confirmation times, lobby listings, and cheating countermeasures. The poker-room GUI can be created to reside on players machines, but all the important information is protected in the blockchain. Is that right?

We re wrote the game to not include "fish", when there is less rake taken out you don't need degenerate players anymore and the game functions fine off of rich philanthropic types vs winning pros.

What you say is all fine but it is not part of this plan. It is simpler, we now have a finite amount of poker "coupons", that is the plan. Once distributed amongst the players we will ask EXISTING sites and business to accept the coupon like it is money. It is very easy to receive some of this coupon, so if you want to be an early adopter you should do so.

On December 10 2014 09:35 whamm! wrote: Jesus Christ if I can't understand this, what more Uncle Norman or grandpa? Can't you guys just build the software so people can actually play and try it out? Call me an idiot digger, but this is just way too complicated for a recreational player to grasp. Rake in live casinos is nuts but you see fish line up and play there giving zero fucks because it's idiot proof easy

No you aren't an idiot for this. But this thread is not for grandpa. Grandpa uses email now, and grandpa will soon be using bitcoin, he might even use it and not realize it in the future because its an underlying protocol. If you want simple here:

Create 21 million poker coins (done).
Distribute to poker players
Get existing poker sites to accept poker coin.

Now if you want to argue that getting and using poker coin is too difficult then you must get some first otherwise you dont know what you are arguing about. And yes its extremely easy ask Andrew.

nobody gives a fuck about "Nick Szabo’s extension of Metcalf’s Law".

pls answer concisely in plain english without copy pasting anything or making any analogies: how and at what point in your "plan" is somebody is going to be able to exchange the coins you conjured out of nothing for actual money that can be used to buy things?

On December 10 2014 11:18 Romm3l wrote: nobody gives a fuck about "Nick Szabo’s extension of Metcalf’s Law". pls answer concisely in plain english without copy pasting anything how and at what point in your "plan" is somebody is going to be able to exchange the coins you conjured out of nothing for actual money that can be used to buy things?

Lol, I realize different people have a different level of interest, and I am fine at giving answers to different questions. The value of the coins comes from the benefit that a crypto network would bring. Since there is a such a giant monopoly effective rake and the cost of playing poker is so large there is a giant bubble of value to be accessed. In order to do so we need to reach a tipping point level of adoption from the players side (hence metcalf's law) AND we will need to have a certain amount of merchants accepting the coin.

The coin is immediately transferable on the crypto exchange market however it obviously won't have a price established yet.

We must understand, we expect a spike in the price, early adopters stand to make the most, but in the future we are not looking for "poker coin" to be a store of wealth, it is a means to an end. In the future it might be a useful collectable for other technological reasons than "price". But in the meantime we are using as a means to join into cooperation, by giving individuals incentive to participate.

Pls don't be upset if I don't explain well, it is a difficult subject for all of us. Once one community starts to spread the coin, even for "fun" it won't take much for 1 or to others. Once some players realize the power of what we are doing 2p2 will catch on and the movement will spread like wildfire. The status quo will have to face an army of a crypto currency connected network over night.

why the coin you made up and why not bitcoin? why not lightcoin or any of the 10000 other coins? why not a coin I make up myself using this counterparty thing called romm3lcoin?

when you keep repeating early adopters will gain most (if it catches on), and wanting to give "individuals incentive to participate", it sounds exactly like you're trying to sell a ponzi scheme. sure if you somehow convince everyone to use the coin you made, you and the early adopters will do fine. but if i want to get into the business of starting ponzi schemes, why don't i work for myself and make up my own coin instead of try to peddle the one you made? i can try to sound smart by copy pasting articles from journals and changing a few words too...

On December 10 2014 12:05 Romm3l wrote: why the coin you made up and why not bitcoin? why not lightcoin or any of the 10000 other coins?

There can only be one universal players coin, I hope you see this and why it is true. Bitcoin and Litecoin do not incentivize poker players. Only a players community coin can harness the value of the inefficient poker network that currently exists.

why not a coin I make up myself using this counterparty thing called romm3lcoin?

this is the question we eventually expect. It is more valid than bitcoin and litecoin (for reasons stated above). Now you want to ask why the players should trust and use Naj Coin rather than Romm3lcoin? Gives us your arguments, we will see if they hold vs mine...in other words who can suggest that a universal players coin is the correct thing to do yet your coin is better than Naj coin?

when you keep repeating early adopters will gain most (if it catches on), and wanting to give "individuals incentive to participate", it sounds exactly like you're trying to sell a ponzi scheme. sure if you somehow convince everyone to use the coin you made, you and the early adopters will do fine. but if i want to get into the business of starting ponzi schemes, why don't i work for myself and make up my own coin instead of try to peddle the one you made? i can try to sound smart by copy pasting articles from journals and changing a few words too...

Yes out of ignorance we fear. We don't really understand ponzi schemes, we don't understand financials, and we don't understand crypto currency and counterparty, yet we are sooooo quick to point that its a ponzi scheme.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ponzi_scheme

A Ponzi scheme is a fraudulent investment operation where the operator, an individual or organization, pays returns to its investors from new capital paid to the operators by new investors, rather than from profit earned by the operator. Operators of Ponzi schemes usually entice new investors by offering higher returns than other investments, in the form of short-term returns that are either abnormally high or unusually consistent.

Ponzi schemes require money invested from the bottom to filter up to the top, so people at the bottom get SCREWED. What I suggest requires no "investment", and EVERYBODY gains. Do you see that your religion does not allow for such a thing? It is the very opposite of a ponzi scheme. How hard have we worked in this thread to paint me as a malicious attacker when all I have clearly done is spend all my energy and destroyed my entire image just to bring back the game that we all love.

You've been abused all your lives financially...

but i am not trying to hurt you, I am bringing a perfectly crafted solution by John Nash to the poker players.

Romm3lcoin, sir, how about no more arguing from habit, get a counterparty wallet it, give me your address, I will send you Naj Coin and we can discuss this in a civilized manner?

what you suggest requires no investment?

do you realise thats the same as saying nobody will ever pay real money for your coin lol. if nobody ever invests then how is your coin worth anything? value is what you can exchange for other goods and services, not some fourth root of nodes

On December 10 2014 13:00 Romm3l wrote: what you suggest requires no investment? do you realise thats the same as saying nobody will ever pay real money for your coin lol. if nobody ever invests then how is your coin worth anything? value is what you can exchange for other goods and services, not some fourth root of nodes

The concept is perfect, not for someone like you with a half a brain to pick anything apart about it. You need a full brain to do so.

The PLAYERS neednt invest. Meaning its not a ponzi scheme, and nothing your ass can say can make it so. Use your head, try to think for even a moment, try to make your brain cells work. Its a very simple concept and not malicious at all. We have coupon, we adopt it, we get businesses to participate in our network.

If you have a 4 year old mentality you are not going to be able to understand, do you see this?

when i played poker on stars i was able to increase my purchasing power of actual goods and services if i won. you still havent answered who is going to exchange your coin for proper money. if players dont invest then your coin is just play money chips as andrewsong said. wheres the money?

On December 10 2014 13:07 Romm3l wrote: when i played poker on stars i was able to increase my purchasing power of actual goods and services if i won. you still havent answered who is going to exchange your coin for proper money. if players dont invest then your coin is just play money chips as andrewsong said. wheres the money?

Such a better tone thank you. The money comes from the effective rake that the industry monopoly is currently taking from the game + the money leaving from the friction of the current payment network.

Because *'s has an industry monopoly the "effective" rake is actually way higher than it would be if there was no monopoly. The difference between the two is profit. Please don't think of me as an infant because I say it so simply. It is what Nash teaches in Ideal Money. We take the ideal, and the difference is the value of the change.

Not only is there value from breaking the monopolistic control, but also because crypto currency networks are cheaper for all players and all sites. So there is a GREAT value in adoption of it. And this value gets reflected into the coin that bring about the change.

So basically you are asking "So digger you are telling us this counterparty Naj Coin is magically going to plug into PS and suck its value into a "price"?"

And I'm saying...after a year of research, and after an incredible amount of deciphering the unbelievable lecture Ideal Money...yes we are coming up a new technological currency revolution...this is our role.

Also more value can be put into "price" by having poker related merchants give a discount for the coin.

on the contrary i would think you were much smarter if you were able to express anything in simple terms. at that you are still failing.

Where's the money?

I get that lower rake means more money in players' pockets. But lower rake and playing for your funnymoney only means more funnymoney in players' pockets. Where does real money come into this?

+ Show Spoiler +

On December 10 2014 13:23 Romm3l wrote: on the contrary i would think you were much smarter if you were able to express anything in simple terms. at that you are still failing. Where's the money? I get that lower rake means more money in players' pockets. But lower rake and playing for your funnymoney only means more funnymoney in players' pockets. Where does real money come into this? + Show Spoiler + where's the money?

Where did the money come from for bitcoin? Obviously I do not understand your question and you do not understand my answer.

Millions and essentially billions of dollars of value leaves the poker economy through raked monies. The reduction of this leak turns our "coupon" into a conduit of value. The "money" simply gets channeled back into the poker economy. If you cannot see this as an obvious explanation as to "where is the money" I cannot be blamed for your inability to see.

Bitcoin gains value (ie where the money is) from the efficiency it brings to the centralized banking industry. Poker coin does the identical thing to the poker industry. Bitcoin cannot do this to the poker industry, it is not what it is for nor will it work. The communities each need to adopt their own currency, and this is poker's coin.

Rom, get some Naj Coin, lets make this networks value on this forum n= 3, its exponential, remember we are talking value, if we want "price" (ie where is the money), that comes later when the coin is accepted throughout the industry.

When major businesses first started adopting cryto currencies, they tried to charge equal amounts with crypto vs fiat payments. But the bitcoin community turned it into bad press and complained that its just a business PR stunt if they don't at least incentivize the use of bitcoin. For many companies the NEXT DAY they reduced the price of bitcoin related transactions for the customers.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showpost.php?p=45495530&postcount=41

I wonder if they charge for the conversion fees when you need to transfer between bitcoins would not be surprised if they do this.

We are finally starting to realize and admit that poker sites are centralized exchanges/banks, and thus they are subject to the same financial and economic laws and solutions that central banking is. This means that Nash's solution to the centralized banking industry is perfectly applicable to poker. That is what we have done.

Effective rake is inversely tied to our adoption of Naj Coin, and the price of Naj coin will reflect the change as a result, once its adopted amongst enough useful merchants in the industry.
It means the gasoline has been poured and we simply need to light it one fire...

On December 10 2014 11:04 diggerflopboat wrote: Show nested quote + don't tell the fish about this. but yeah, so the value of using counterparty as a base for the poker-coin is that it could quickly establish the poker-coin using proof of stake. The poker-coin could be created to have attributes of fast transaction confirmation times, lobby listings, and cheating countermeasures. The poker-room GUI can be created to reside on players machines, but all the important information is protected in the blockchain. Is that right? We re wrote the game to not include "fish", when there is less rake taken out you don't need degenerate players anymore and the game functions fine off of rich philanthropic types vs winning pros. What you say is all fine but it is not part of this plan. It is simpler, we now have a finite amount of poker "coupons", that is the plan. Once distributed amongst the players we will ask EXISTING sites and business to accept the coupon like it is money. It is very easy to receive some of this coupon, so if you want to be an early adopter you should do so.

Your plan is:
distribute finite number of poker-coins evenly to all poker players (aka airdrop)
use community pressure to have the sites agree to exchange those coins for some small amount of cash
altcoin transactions established, people can now buy in to Pokerstars using bitcoin through the altcoin

is that right?

We are slowly waking up to the revelation of John Nash's lecture "ideal poker" that teaches us a new "poker currency technology" is going to revolutionize the centralized poker site industry:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/29/...nline-poker-will-go-dark-web-1494950/

It does seem like big money is set to sneak in a bill that will ban online poker, but it will not kill online gaming. Poker rooms and casinos will just emerge on the dark web and likely the stakes will be for bitcoins. There are already sites where we can play poker that way, more legislation and another poker site heist by the DOJ will only make those sites stronger.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showpost.php?p=45495897&postcount=42

I never bought a bitcoin before, but if it lets me play on pokerstars I'll take $5k worth of bitcoin right now.

why would pokerstars need to go to bitcoin though? I mean bitcoin would have been the solution before US players where booted.

On December 10 2014 14:28 Silver_nz wrote: Your plan is: distribute finite number of poker-coins evenly to all poker players (aka airdrop) use community pressure to have the sites agree to exchange those coins for some small amount of cash altcoin transactions established, people can now buy in to Pokerstars using bitcoin through the altcoin is that right?

doesn't have to be even, but it needs to be a decent distribution. We aren't worried about PS, we are going to campaign to all of the competitors, those that want a change to the status quo. Many people have incentive to cooperate vs the industry monopoly