Ideal Poker: the Players Revolution - Page 2

^guess whos back, back again

On November 08 2014 10:25 fira wrote: Show nested quote + On November 08 2014 08:48 VanDerMeyde wrote: I miss something like wgtour for brood war players that were run by players and not by investors. If any stuff came up that were bad for the games/players etc they would bann it or make some rules - in poker they never do nothing about any problems that dry up the games. Its really annoying. Pokerstars have thou done a lot of very good things for their players i must say, but more could be done. Other sites like Betfair, Full tilt poker etc just refuses to make any good change for real poker players and game died. B- WGT highest i got :S i was such a nit back then

There was no such thing as B- on WGT iirc. That came with PGTour, and later ICCup.

WGT ranks were from C6 to C0, then from B6 to B0, and A and an olympic rank above that I believe?

On November 09 2014 15:17 hilly114 wrote: hi people im just wandering if any1 can do me a massive favour and transfer me a dollar to my poker stars account as i need 1 more point to release £10 and ran out of money in bank.... il transfer you $2 back lol.... pm me if any1s willing

seriously? check your couch cushions for spare change

yea gl, sounds kinda like you are talking about bitcoin and seals with clubs.

problems at this time are.
1. decentralized currencies are too difficult for donks to obtain, store, and spend. large hurdle and some progress is being made.

2. you refer to a large disgruntled group of players and act like that is a majority. It may be a majority of winning players but even all the people you are talking to on all the forums is only a small part of the overall player pool. There are far more recs than regs, it just doesn't always seem that way because they play far less tables and far less frequently. They aren't even aware of rake changes; just what they see in commercials.

3. You would need a ton of money to get it off the ground; not just for building and operating a site but mainly for advertising. You need to show the donks this place even exists and then give them some compelling reason to switch or even just check it out. So without rake to pay off debt who will invest in this.

On November 24 2014 11:34 traxamillion wrote: yea gl, sounds kinda like you are talking about bitcoin and seals with clubs. problems at this time are. 1. decentralized currencies are too difficult for donks to obtain, store, and spend. large hurdle and some progress is being made. 2. you refer to a large disgruntled group of players and act like that is a majority. It may be a majority of winning players but even all the people you are talking to on all the forums is only a small part of the overall player pool. There are far more recs than regs, it just doesn't always seem that way because they play far less tables and far less frequently. They aren't even aware of rake changes; just what they see in commercials. 3. You would need a ton of money to get it off the ground; not just for building and operating a site but mainly for advertising. You need to show the donks this place even exists and then give them some compelling reason to switch or even just check it out. So without rake to pay off debt who will invest in this.

1) 10 seconds you will have a wallet https://counterwallet.io/# copy/paste your wallet address to me and you will get your coin. "bitcoin" was hard only in 2010, it is 4 years later now...

2) The recreational players follow the pros, and there is a bonus that people that receive the universal poker coin first gain the most.

3) its not a site, it is already off the ground and it costed zero $. there are 21 million naj coins, and if you want some lemme know...once enough players have them we will use our coalition to build our network of trusted poker sites by getting EXISTING sites to accept our coin.

2) The recreational players follow the pros

lolol

its the other way around buddy

On November 29 2014 22:30 Baalim wrote: Show nested quote + 2) The recreational players follow the pros lolol its the other way around buddy

shake your head and think about it for a moment...start giving examples...

edit: also while you are at it, since its faster and takes 10 secs...sign up for a wallet, post me your public address from it, and ill send you some coin then you can tell me what is up ...
I am well studied and prepared, you are laughing at what you don't understand but in 10 seconds you could.

The centralized poker industry....

its over..

On November 29 2014 22:30 Baalim wrote: Show nested quote + 2) The recreational players follow the pros lolol its the other way around buddy

Winning a big pot vs some known pro is every recreational players dream....... I hear this kind of babble all the time @ live poker

On November 30 2014 07:14 VanDerMeyde wrote: Winning a big pot vs some known pro is every recreational players dream....... I hear this kind of babble all the time @ live poker

Exactly and how ironic is it when you have stars "pros" telling players the opposite is true...

SOOO many levels!

On November 30 2014 01:55 diggerflopboat wrote: Show nested quote + On November 29 2014 22:30 Baalim wrote:   2) The recreational players follow the pros lolol its the other way around buddy shake your head and think about it for a moment...start giving examples... edit: also while you are at it, since its faster and takes 10 secs...sign up for a wallet, post me your public address from it, and ill send you some coin then you can tell me what is up ... I am well studied and prepared, you are laughing at what you don't understand but in 10 seconds you could. The centralized poker industry.... its over..

I laugh because you are oblivious to something anybody in the poker world knows, and for somebody trying to start a poker room bussiness not knowing it its insane.

Do you want examples?

Dwan, Ivey, Antonius, Robl, Juanda not only changed casinos chasing fish.. they moved to another country that has a language thei dont speak ffs.

From negreanus blog:

Back when I was just starting out I used to play at a private club in Toronto called Check N' Raise. It was a really nice club, good food, clean, no smoking, high ceilings, and always good action with an extremely fair rake- there wasn't one. Instead, players were encouraged to tip, and most did tip $2.50 a hand, but it wasn't required. That was one way around the law that you can't take a rake. Food was free and so was the poker. It was a pretty good deal, and most people really appreciated the system and didn't take advantage of it. The room started to really boom for a while with weekly tournaments that were well attended. The Likes of Howard Goldfarb, our hometown hero after finishing runner up to Dan Harrington in the 1995 WSOP main event used to frequent the place as did plenty of other professional gamblers. Of course, we had a Tommy "The Greek" and we also happened to have a Jimmy "The Greek." It was always a treat when Woody the Vegas bookie would come to town and regale us with stories from the desert. It was a good atmosphere, lots of fun, and friendly people. There was also a guy who used to come and play named Moshe. Moshe was really bad! He virtually never won, and didn't care much for folding. He lost for a few months and everyone profited from it. At some point, Moshe came up with the idea to run his own club. It was in a dingy basement, reeked of cigarette smoke, was hot, stuffy, the tables were dirty and cramped together, and the food offered wasn't like what players were accustomed to at Check N' Raise. Moshe had friends, and they were no better than he was so he invited them to play at his club too. Guess what happened? All the pros chose to play at Moshe's instead of the much nicer Check N' Raise because... well, that's where Moshe played. Winning poker players will always put profit over comfort! If the game is good enough, they will play in a train station toilet. They may complain, but they will play. Of course, all the pros would prefer to play at Check N' Raise, but as long as Moshe was playing at Moshe's place, that's where they would be. Pros will flock to where the games are. It's their job and it only makes sense. They come to you, they will fill seats as long as there is something in it for them. Typically that something is money. Check N' Raise had our hero Howie, but that didn't trump the value of playing with Moshe. This is how the poker economy worked when I started, and it remains the same today. If you like Commerce better than the Bike, but the games at the Bike are better action, it's a no-brainer for a pro to play at the Bike. Why do you think so many pros have been traveling to Macau? For the scenery? For the VIP bonuses? For the hospitality? No, they go there because it makes financial sense to them and that's where a lot of recreational players with big bankrolls are playing. The most important ingredient to any poker game is always going to be VALUE. Not fancy chairs, designer water, or big screen TVs. If you can attract the right clientele you automatically get the rest to flock to your games. You don't need to pander to the pros, or convince them to come- they will be there happily. If you run poker games you know this. It's a given, but many people don't get that the focus needs to be aimed towards the recreational players first and foremost. If you are a pro, you should look at it like a partnership. The guy running the game provides the rec players, and you profit from it, while he makes some money off the games running. In private games, that requires a pro to be gracious and thankful for the opportunity. Imagine if you were running a private game and Moshe said, "I don't like this Negreanu kid, I don't want to play with him. If he plays I quit." What would be in your best interest? Letting Moshe leave, or telling me I can't play cause Moshe doesn't want me to? You'd be foolish to let me play. I'm not the main draw for the game, Moshe is.

Get 1,000 Regs in your site and nobody will play a single hand, they will be sitting out till a fish sits, and then the games will run.

On November 30 2014 07:14 VanDerMeyde wrote: Show nested quote + On November 29 2014 22:30 Baalim wrote:   2) The recreational players follow the pros lolol its the other way around buddy Winning a big pot vs some known pro is every recreational players dream....... I hear this kind of babble all the time @ live poker

Yeah ofcourse somebody with 200 bucks wants to play a pot vs Ivey.

But sit Ivey on a 500/1k table and see how much action he gets.... or sit Guy Laliberte in a 500/1k and see how many action he generates.


Ofcourse I undestand the marketing value of key pros, I am a small one myself and in a broad scale after heavy marketing and branding we have some pull but thats after being paid to promote the site and we are lilke what, 0.1% of pros?


Its beyond me im discussing these things to people who should know better -_-

On November 30 2014 17:33 diggerflopboat wrote: Show nested quote + On November 30 2014 07:14 VanDerMeyde wrote: Winning a big pot vs some known pro is every recreational players dream....... I hear this kind of babble all the time @ live poker Exactly and how ironic is it when you have stars "pros" telling players the opposite is true... SOOO many levels!

Again, its amazing that somebody starting a poker business knows so little about the poker world, when you say pros you mean a handful of extremely known people who need to be paid big amounts to promote your site, when we hear pros we think of the thousands and thousands of unknown people who play poker for a living

It would be interesting to see some hard data on what exactly it is that motivates your average fish to play poker
-dreams of a big tourney score
-playing with pros
-other friends are doing it
-competitive drive
-memories of playing with old ma n pa around the kitchen table
each would have its own weight, but one would be more important than the others

On December 01 2014 01:58 Baalim wrote: I laugh because you are oblivious to something anybody in the poker world knows, and for somebody trying to start a poker room bussiness not knowing it its insane. Do you want examples? Dwan, Ivey, Antonius, Robl, Juanda not only changed casinos chasing fish.. they moved to another country that has a language thei dont speak ffs. Get 1,000 Regs in your site and nobody will play a single hand, they will be sitting out till a fish sits, and then the games will run.

I am not trying to start a business or a poker room. I am simply pointing out the simple and obvious game theoretical option available to use, a player created/adopted coupon. The coupon gains value over time from its usefulness in the industry that you might not see because you have never used this "technology". Its the next "email".

The whole point is that its the opposite of a business.

I don't think that pointing out pros that move from casino resort location to other resort destinations is really making an argument against my point. You are a sponsored pro, why do you think that is? Part of pokers allure is that the recreational fan/player can join in and play with the top players often for a comparatively reasonable price. And unlike many sports/competition there is a chance they will win as well.

You are arguing yourself out of a job, while remaining living proof of what I am saying. If the pros decide that X site is no longer the site for the general poker community because its shady then that site will soon become and remain barren.

Sir, what I offer is something so much simpler than you and others realize, but we fear what we don't know and there is always the mental barrier of adopting something new.

Its very simple (https://counterwallet.io/#), you sign up for an account by clicking "generate password", save the password, and then you are logged into your wallet, copy/paste the wallet address, and then pm/post the address to receive the coin. I did not create this system of wallets and coins, bitcoin did, this is the next generation of the technology bitcoin 2.0.

It is not my business I 'own' nothing here, the point is simple to set up a network connected by "email 2.0" or "naj-coin", something we don't yet understand but we will. People want to argue their own misconceptions on these issues, but I am suggesting that once everyone shuts up and gets a wallet/naj-coin, the issues in the industry will dissolve over night-I am saying you cannot understand until you receive najcoin.

its like not being able to understand email in 1995 until someone signed you up and sent you one!

um i didnt read the rest of your posts but obviously baal is right about pros chasing fish

i m gonna quit playing on pokerstars coz i feel hunted by all them fishes

On December 01 2014 12:01 bigredhoss wrote: um i didnt read the rest of your posts but obviously baal is right about pros chasing fish

its not obvious, its not logical, and it doesn't reflect reality.

If you read my post I pointed out baal and other pros get paid by sites, why? To attract recreational players!

Baal points out that live pros move to the best casinos and of course those pros get immense benefits from those casinos to play there.

You can market the game both ways and perceive it either way but you cannot tell me that the "pros" are doomed to play where the recs play. Old school pros simply fail to explain to the recs why lower rake is important for both the rec and the pro. Having Baal and Dneg argue vs this just supports my point.

On December 01 2014 02:07 Baalim wrote: Show nested quote + On November 30 2014 07:14 VanDerMeyde wrote:   On November 29 2014 22:30 Baalim wrote:   2) The recreational players follow the pros lolol its the other way around buddy Winning a big pot vs some known pro is every recreational players dream....... I hear this kind of babble all the time @ live poker Yeah ofcourse somebody with 200 bucks wants to play a pot vs Ivey. But sit Ivey on a 500/1k table and see how much action he gets.... or sit Guy Laliberte in a 500/1k and see how many action he generates. Ofcourse I undestand the marketing value of key pros, I am a small one myself and in a broad scale after heavy marketing and branding we have some pull but thats after being paid to promote the site and we are lilke what, 0.1% of pros? Its beyond me im discussing these things to people who should know better -_-

From what I heard Guy Laliberte didnt attract a lot of recreational players... he attract all the sharks and some weaker regs that got owned really hard by Durrr/Galfond etc...

By "big pot" it can be 1000$ double up at 2000nl and then leave the table vs someone they have seen on "high stakes poker". Almost all the recreational guys in my live game has acctually seen high stakes poker. "Have you played starcraft vs Raszi?" "WOOOOOOW" And some of them have gambled up a decent stack online and taken shots vs some really well known pro's at HU tables/ring games. My friend got 1 story that he gambled up a bankroll to 5000$ on sports betting and then sat down vs some smaller sites pro at 5000nl and doubled up, cashed out and left the network. The reason he sat down was because he recognized the guy from their homepage.

On December 01 2014 13:05 diggerflopboat wrote: Show nested quote + On December 01 2014 12:01 bigredhoss wrote: um i didnt read the rest of your posts but obviously baal is right about pros chasing fish its not obvious, its not logical, and it doesn't reflect reality. If you read my post I pointed out baal and other pros get paid by sites, why? To attract recreational players! Baal points out that live pros move to the best casinos and of course those pros get immense benefits from those casinos to play there. You can market the game both ways and perceive it either way but you cannot tell me that the "pros" are doomed to play where the recs play. Old school pros simply fail to explain to the recs why lower rake is important for both the rec and the pro. Having Baal and Dneg argue vs this just supports my point.

it's not uncommon to find games with stars pros running 2-5 handed for hours without filling up. if one fish sits, the game fills in seconds and soon has a 20-person waitlist. the reverse never happens.

the fact that a small % of pros are paid to attract players is not an argument that fish generally follow pros. in some cases the "pros" attract players simply because the pros themselves are fish, i.e. when negreanu sits in highstakes cash games.

it's not uncommon to find games with stars pros running 2-5 handed for hours without filling up. if one fish sits, the game fills in seconds and soon has a 20-person waitlist. the reverse never happens. the fact that a small % of pros are paid to attract players is not an argument that fish generally follow pros. in some cases the "pros" attract players simply because the pros themselves are fish, i.e. when negreanu sits in highstakes cash games.

The purpose of this point is that if all the pros packed up and left stars the recs would leave too. There is a prevailing argument that games would get softer and so pros or "new pros" would come back and nothing would change but its a circle and nonlogical argument.

If all these pros like limon Negraneau all the names starting going around saying that *'s is not the site to play on then nobody would play there. And the whole point of this conversation is the over raking of games and if games are over raked it doesn't matter if Negraneau is a fish at some stakes.

If it isn't try that pros attract and maintain recreational depositors then why do we give them rake as stars pro contracts that we could use keep in the prizepools and buyins for the games?

I believe limon and I ultimately agree, but I think it would take shots and shots of hard liquor to finally arrive at our conclusion.

I propose something never brought before the poker community and we clearly have not thought in this line before.