Turn Decision vs Eric "The Nit" Liu - Page 2

On November 07 2014 20:58 MezmerizePLZ wrote: Eric tanked gave a sheepish grin

Was it like this?

On November 09 2014 17:40 TheHuHu3 wrote: Show nested quote + On November 07 2014 20:58 MezmerizePLZ wrote: Eric tanked gave a sheepish grin Was it like this?

why do you have pictures of me on your computer D:

Mez, I disagree in your statement that it's a mistake to fold pre. In fact, I believe its the opposite. Whether this was played live or online, it's still the same game. Assuming BB defends well and that Eric isn't leaking post flop, I doubt you can make up for 2.5bb even with the added money of BB calling.

On flop, Its very close between a call and a fold. We would need Eric's preflop and postflop frequency in this flop texture to get to a conclusion. However, raising is a clear mistake at this stack depth no matter how you are constructing ur flop range. As played, I think you have to 3b turn with the blocker and go with it on the river. I don't think its inconceivable for eric to be raising turn with a merged range to gain a check to him even with a hand strong as set. Im not sure what strategy you are playing on the flop and flush turns but since you raised this hand and bet, I'm gonna assume you're x/raising all your sets and some flush combos. As played, I think you have to always 3bet turn/jam river with a nut flush and the blocker. Call turn/re-evaluating river with sets and flushes. I think there's superior strat involving less flop raising that makes more in ev+ than having to risk so much chips for little to no gain.

On November 12 2014 02:53 AndrewSong wrote: Mez, I disagree in your statement that it's a mistake to fold pre. In fact, I believe its the opposite. Whether this was played live or online, it's still the same game. Assuming BB defends well and that Eric isn't leaking post flop, I doubt you can make up for 2.5bb even with the added money of BB calling. On flop, Its very close between a call and a fold. We would need Eric's preflop and postflop frequency in this flop texture to get to a conclusion. However, raising is a clear mistake at this stack depth no matter how you are constructing ur flop range. As played, I think you have to 3b turn with the blocker and go with it on the river. I don't think its inconceivable for eric to be raising turn with a merged range to gain a check to him even with a hand strong as set. Im not sure what strategy you are playing on the flop and flush turns but since you raised this hand and bet, I'm gonna assume you're x/raising all your sets and some flush combos. As played, I think you have to always 3bet turn/jam river with a nut flush and the blocker. Call turn/re-evaluating river with sets and flushes. I think there's superior strat involving less flop raising that makes more in ev+ than having to risk so much chips for little to no gain.

I agree with this man. I perfer the 3bet line i guess at this point. erics range doesnt make a lot of sense. no non-nutflush SHOULD want to bloat the pot anymore this deep. i dont really think eric should have a raising range tbh. like at all on the turn. Range plays better by flatting turn with everything. But ye above all else folding pre i think is better. The deeper we are the worse AT becomes of a flat. And even at 100bbs online AT gets folded here. So i can't really see justification for calling other than really sick reads on his tendencies and a clear plan on how to own him.

If eric is opening 50% of hands and we have ATo in SB infinity bb deep u think its a fold?

whats % of hands does Eric have to be opening to play this hand for a call? (assuming i would much rather call with this hand than 3b), Also assuming BB is not leaking too hard.

I guess I didn't really note erics opening range in the beginning post, but the players that had position on him were nits and I expected him to be opening extremely wide for his seat. What % of hands would he have to be opening for u defend ATo infinite deep from SB with a competent BB?

Opening about 15% from this spot

Kinda hilarious in my mind if you honestly think you were opening 15% here
I like fold vs 15% range. At what point does ATo become a call?

On November 16 2014 01:14 n0rthf4ce wrote: Opening about 15% from this spot

trololololol

seriously though, LP needs more hand discussion threads like this

On November 16 2014 17:39 MezmerizePLZ wrote: Kinda hilarious in my mind if you honestly think you were opening 15% here I like fold vs 15% range. At what point does ATo become a call?

vs 15% range you have ~47% equity
vs 20% range you have ~48%
vs 25% you have 52.5% (equity jump is due to the addition of a lot of KTo-JTo type hands)

ATo seems reasonable starting at 25%

after PFR opening range BB's play is a very important variable here, especially how much he squeezes - pretty much every BB out there will be squeezing at least 5% of the time (AQo+, TT+) and some at 10%+, ATo cannot continue vs a squeeze so you realize 0% of your equity after putting in 2.5bb every time he 3 bets

9 outta 10 online regs these days just dont bother w/ having a SB calling range at all anymore

9 out of 10 regs also don't have to play 1500bb deep after 3 betting oop

having 52% equity vs someone OOP. i would have to think they are god awful to think thats close to enough. especially deep where a lot of my decisions are going to be somewhat handcuffed. position is huge. if I was playing against myself i would need much better equity advantage or playability. Anytime its near similar skill level a lot of your equity is never going to get realized.

On November 18 2014 16:18 Smuft wrote: Show nested quote + On November 16 2014 17:39 MezmerizePLZ wrote: Kinda hilarious in my mind if you honestly think you were opening 15% here I like fold vs 15% range. At what point does ATo become a call? vs 15% range you have ~47% equity vs 20% range you have ~48% vs 25% you have 52.5% (equity jump is due to the addition of a lot of KTo-JTo type hands) ATo seems reasonable starting at 25% after PFR opening range BB's play is a very important variable here, especially how much he squeezes - pretty much every BB out there will be squeezing at least 5% of the time (AQo+, TT+) and some at 10%+, ATo cannot continue vs a squeeze so you realize 0% of your equity after putting in 2.5bb every time he 3 bets 9 outta 10 online regs these days just dont bother w/ having a SB calling range at all anymore

really like this post

Also after rereading the hand more carefully I also like mez's play.

It might be results oriented but if you really were going to check raise all in on river and bet pot on paired boards, thats some sick 3rd level shit your playing and i gotta admire you for that, because looking at the hands i think it probably would have worked.

Not sure if peachy was raising turn for pot control check on river or if he raised to set up bluff on river after putting you on set on flop. either way there was some serious meta game in this hand.

Doomer we're calling 2.5bb in a pot of 4.5bb so we only need 36% equity which means our ATo needs to realize 70% of it's 52% equity. Will ATo realize that much of it's equity? can't be sure but it's pretty close and at least a reasonable place to start considering calling

Peachy, do you think a stack size increase from 100bb to 1500bb should make the difference between having a calling range in the SB and not having one? I can see arguments for both sides and I'm really not sure what the right answer is but I lean towards SB still having no calling range side of the argument.

I think it's just too hard to balance an SB calling range and 3 bet range while staying competitive on enough textures. You can try to balance both but except for some very perverted solutions of doing stuff like calling some combos of premiums 33% of the time, 67s 50% of the time, AQo 25%, etc. you usually just end up gutting both ranges and making them too hard to play with.

One adjustment I would make as stacks get deeper is to just 3b a lower frequency, the EV of all our hands should get lower as stacks get deeper so I'd cut out the bottom 1-3% of my 3bet range since they are no longer profitable.

On November 19 2014 08:38 Smuft wrote: Doomer we're calling 2.5bb in a pot of 4.5bb so we only need 36% equity which means our ATo needs to realize 70% of it's 52% equity. Will ATo realize that much of it's equity? can't be sure but it's pretty close and at least a reasonable place to start considering calling Peachy, do you think a stack size increase from 100bb to 1500bb should make the difference between having a calling range in the SB and not having one? I can see arguments for both sides and I'm really not sure what the right answer is but I lean towards SB still having no calling range side of the argument. I think it's just too hard to balance an SB calling range and 3 bet range while staying competitive on enough textures. You can try to balance both but except for some very perverted solutions of doing stuff like calling some combos of premiums 33% of the time, 67s 50% of the time, AQo 25%, etc. you usually just end up gutting both ranges and making them too hard to play with. One adjustment I would make as stacks get deeper is to just 3b a lower frequency, the EV of all our hands should get lower as stacks get deeper so I'd cut out the bottom 1-3% of my 3bet range since they are no longer profitable.

Good posts. I want to add that we have to factor in how much equity we will realize in 3handed pot as well. ATo does well in hot&cold equity in both situation but there's risk of being blown out of our hand pre and post being first to act.

Regarding SB play, I think there's pros of having a calling range at this stack depth. I agree with your sentiment that it sucks because of vulnerability in our coverage, and that's exactly why I disagreed in Mez's flop raise since constructing a raising range in this texture makes our strategy problematic in future streets. However, it goes the same when you play 3bet or fold. A lot of the hands that was profitable in 100bb lose in value and our fold equity becomes considerably lower so we have to strengthen our range by folding hands that may beat the blinds when we call. We also have more risk of being blown out of our equity not just from BB but BU's 4bet as well.

just looks spewy the second x/f isn't clicked on flop, esp vs capable regs.

Ye thats a good point smuft. I didn't really account for the price we are getting i guess. It does become closer for sure.

On November 16 2014 17:39 MezmerizePLZ wrote: Kinda hilarious in my mind if you honestly think you were opening 15% here I like fold vs 15% range. At what point does ATo become a call?

15% if ur on ur phone, 10% if ur shuffling chips and gazing into my eyes.