How did WCGRider get so good?

I used to play the same stakes as him pre black friday. Now he's topping the nosebleed list. Wtf happened? How do I take that path?

you play HU and you reg war a lot

he's actually not that much of a threat in 6max games

I'm pretty sure he was coached by one of the top high stakes players, can't recall who though.

a lot of works away from the tables, some of his mysterious spreadsheets must have played a role most likely just range/math/toy games models like sauce does with crev. He also got to talk to rly good players.

from what Kanu7 said he defo isn't the Isildur type to just jump into a game if he knows it or not and pay for learning when he's -ev there, he wasn't giving much action to the top guys for a long time.

On February 12 2014 17:07 LemOn[5thF] wrote: from what Kanu7 said he defo isn't the Isildur type to just jump into a game if he knows it or not and pay for learning when he's -ev there, he wasn't giving much action to the top guys for a long time.

sounds like hes a fucking nit

nah not anymore, he plays anyone now I think (dont see his and sauce battling that much tho and shit?) but cause he knows he can match them, Kanu said since he started focusing on 6M more last year he considered WCG better as Kanu stopped working on his HU game and was amused by WCG's cries that people won't play him when he did the same to them before

he will play anyone, at any stake size. Sauce has clearly shown by their match at ftp to be a losing player vs wcg. At least for now.

ike has a similar strategy that Sauce used, ike's strat is losing to wcg in hu as well. Both sauce and ike have very sharp losing redlines vs wcg

I have no idea how WCG models his strategies, but he claims to know how to take your strategy and model his tailored strategy to maximize value. He does't just robot do the same thing vs all people, so trying to copy his strat would be a bad idea unless you know exactly why he is doing it

I think what my games missing is the math. I'm convinced that's what takes players from good to outstanding.

On February 12 2014 16:31 Fayth wrote: you play HU and you reg war a lot he's actually not that much of a threat in 6max games

I highly doubt he is not much of a threat in 6max, being that the majority of hands are played from Button vs blinds, blinds defending and he has the best models for both scenarios, it would just be smaller edges because ranges are more tight, increasing variance.

On February 12 2014 17:03 Defrag wrote: I'm pretty sure he was coached by one of the top high stakes players, can't recall who though.

i'm pretty sure he's said in an interview it was Jungleman

Help me make a list of things I can do to improve my HU game. These range lists and excel sheets that you speak of, what are they more specifically? Can they be reproduced if we put our minds together? I think what it is, is a handful of HUD stats that can be plugged in to look at ranges given different board textures/scenarios. Then you come up with mathematical edge vs each bundle of stats. How else would he do work away from the tables?

On February 12 2014 18:03 TimDawg wrote: Show nested quote + On February 12 2014 17:03 Defrag wrote: I'm pretty sure he was coached by one of the top high stakes players, can't recall who though. i'm pretty sure he's said in an interview it was Jungleman

if I remember they exchanged coaching. They may have lived together briefly, jungle talked some poker, wcg gave life coaching. I think it was from a 2+2 interview and he downplayed how much jungle helped him, eventually saying that jungle and wcg strongly disagree on some sort of game theory.

On February 12 2014 18:11 Nitewin wrote: Help me make a list of things I can do to improve my HU game. These range lists and excel sheets that you speak of, what are they more specifically? Can they be reproduced if we put our minds together? I think what it is, is a handful of HUD stats that can be plugged in to look at ranges given different board textures/scenarios. Then you come up with mathematical edge vs each bundle of stats. How else would he do work away from the tables?

Well, he has literally just modeled HU poker ranges better than everyone else, he has formulas for range v range that give up most profitable range strates, bet sizings, defend %. Clearly very few people know how to do it or have done it to the same level. No one can help you to that level and no one would help you at the level.

inb4baal either laughs again at 'range forumlas' or contradicts and says "lol he uses simple math, give me a couple hours"

isildur gives 0 fuck about his optimal ranges

On February 12 2014 19:46 Baalim wrote:

lol

On February 12 2014 20:49 Fayth wrote: isildur gives 0 fuck

Fyp

Isildur will always be king.

As for how WCG improved after staying the same for a solid ~3 yrs? Hard work 'off the courts' from the sounds of things.

Nitewin, if someone could explain/show you how he did it, don't you think they'd be rocking the shit outta people at high stakes as well? In which case, you think they'd just open their doors to their profit making machine? haha, get real man.

I dont think that WCG be so stupid to reveal his strategy, but I agree with Highcard about the ranges formulas and math stuff, if He always do the ev+ move every single time he would print money , we know that this is almost impossible, I think that he started from solidify his preflop range much more strong than anyone in HU, and he do the ev+ decision more often than his adversaries

So he got good with range formulas and because he makes EV+ decisions more often than his adversaries... :D



He started to get close with a group of friends who are really good at poker, it seems they put a lot of effort and study in their games and together they improved drastically, remember Joeingram? he still blogs time to time in here, well he used to be a nit in shorthanded not long ago too and it seems he crushes high stakes PLO now, so this should be a motivation for everyone, we can stop sucking one day if we put some real effort into it.

to be honest, you will be hard pressed to find info, wcg said he doesn't plan to talk much or train people, however, I think he has already said too much. Perhaps part of his self promotion spree last year, but, now that he has garnered the spotlight i will be surprised if says much else.

http://www.fulltiltpoker.com/blog/exclusive-wcgrider-six-figure-hand-analysis-hu-vs-isildur1/

So this is a recent blog post by WCGRider where he analyze a huge hand vs Isildur on 400/800 deep NLH. Is it just me that think the analyze is very off? It feels like he havent observed any history at all with Isildur (but at the same time I cant imagine him being so competely off).

"If my opponent had less than a straight, it would be a very tough place to shove. He can’t imagine I will call with too much less than two-pair or my own straight, so he would have to proceed with caution. Therefore even if he would shove a set, no player would be sick enough to snap-shove, he would have to at least think for a few moments here before committing to a 470k pot when any 6 beats him. It’s important to use timing when appropriate to analyze hands."

And then his conclusion of the only value range:

"So I’m looking at a value range of 5-6, 8-6, and 9-6s. And I’m looking at a bluff range of J-9, J-8, 8-9, and 8-5s. There are more bluffs than value-bets and that includes him betting both 8-5s and 5-6 on the turn."

- Isildur would only vb a straight here?? ISILDUR would ch behind a set??? a 2 pair??? I dont think so...

- Isildur would be incapable of snapshoving a set here? Hes known for making snapmoves all the times, maybe less so now compared to back when he was 8 tabling 3 diff opponents, but i think hes very much capable of snapshoving a set here without thinking about it.

- Isildur is known for putting his opponents in very tough spots with his relentless agression. Thats why in the end WCGRider DID end up calling here with just overpair while at the same time saying Isildur probably wont vb set/2pairs. I think Isildur knows this as well and thats why he get value from overpairs in this spot very thin sometimes.

I dont know, hard to go against the number one NLH HU player right now, but I was dissapointed with his conclusions. Probably would've liked them vs all other players than Isildur.

Yeah cause the same guy that will never coach and tries to avoid giving away info about his game will put out his full thought process fulltiltpoker.com ;D

its probably closer to a tiltcall than he explains

maybe someday hero jts 80 will do a breakdown of wcg's game

hahaha thats great

I wonder if him posting this on FTP's website means they are going to sign him to a sponsorship deal? I'd be surprised if he hasn't at least gotten an offer by them

On February 15 2014 06:01 Balzamon wrote: - Isildur is known for putting his opponents in very tough spots with his relentless agression. Thats why in the end WCGRider DID end up calling here with just overpair while at the same time saying Isildur probably wont vb set/2pairs. I think Isildur knows this as well and thats why he get value from overpairs in this spot very thin sometimes.

Thats what I always loved about isildur. Because he can bluff like this, he can also value bet like this, and it's hilarious when it works.

I didnt see anything all that interesting about WCG's breakdown. I mean isil's range here is kinda wonky, I mean how does he ever show up with a 6 after betting like this. I think isil got the best of isil in that hand and he just kinda auto-bluffed. Marshall's breakdown of Dwan's 500k bluff vs Ivey was more interesting and meta focused than this. Although as you said I dont really expect WCG to be giving away any real info while he's in his prime.

On February 15 2014 07:08 LemOn[5thF] wrote: Yeah cause the same guy that will never coach and tries to avoid giving away info about his game will put out his full thought process fulltiltpoker.com ;D

yeah, he is really pushing hard to get that FTP sponsorship and really get his name out there. must be worth a lot to him if he is going to do these write ups. I guess he doesn't want Ike/kanu to take all the internet-best-player-glory

Probably just wants to freeroll every high-roller tourney out there on FTP's dime.

On February 12 2014 17:53 Highcard wrote: I have no idea how WCG models his strategies, but he claims to know how to take your strategy and model his tailored strategy to maximize value. He does't just robot do the same thing vs all people, so trying to copy his strat would be a bad idea unless you know exactly why he is doing it

sounds like tailoring your strategy to opponents strategy is pretty standard, and pretty sure most people dont play like robots HU,

On February 13 2014 03:18 Baalim wrote: So he got good with range formulas and because he makes EV+ decisions more often than his adversaries... :D He started to get close with a group of friends who are really good at poker, it seems they put a lot of effort and study in their games and together they improved drastically, remember Joeingram? he still blogs time to time in here, well he used to be a nit in shorthanded not long ago too and it seems he crushes high stakes PLO now, so this should be a motivation for everyone, we can stop sucking one day if we put some real effort into it.

cheap shot

also i have no idea whats wrong with his analysis of the hand, why is everyone like: LULZ he foolz everyone!

he might have used simple terms and used absolutes to make it easy to read for most people but thats pretty much it.

+1, thought the analysis was very good

On February 16 2014 03:20 Baalim wrote: also i have no idea whats wrong with his analysis of the hand, why is everyone like: LULZ he foolz everyone! he might have used simple terms and used absolutes to make it easy to read for most people but thats pretty much it.

because everything thinks they are an expert ^^

On February 16 2014 03:20 Baalim wrote: also i have no idea whats wrong with his analysis of the hand, why is everyone like: LULZ he foolz everyone! he might have used simple terms and used absolutes to make it easy to read for most people but thats pretty much it.

I have to agree with Balzamon, I found it very surprising that he excluded sets and 2 pairs from his range so easily. From what I understand he snap bets/shoves quite a bit, if he only did that with a polarized range that would sound awfully exploitable.

On February 16 2014 18:20 tomson wrote: Show nested quote + On February 16 2014 03:20 Baalim wrote: also i have no idea whats wrong with his analysis of the hand, why is everyone like: LULZ he foolz everyone! he might have used simple terms and used absolutes to make it easy to read for most people but thats pretty much it. I have to agree with Balzamon, I found it very surprising that he excluded sets and 2 pairs from his range so easily. From what I understand he snap bets/shoves quite a bit, if he only did that with a polarized range that would sound awfully exploitable.

he is not excluding them he just thinks he would at least think for a second and not snap shove and he is using absolutes to make the thought process easier to understand

isn't it sort of standard for poker players to decide they are shoving on cards x/y/z in spots like this before the river comes?

i wouldnt say its standard to snap shove 2 pair on a 4 to a straight board in a 3bet pot for 300bbs at all

you dont think it's reasonable (or even likely) to think that isildur knows what value range he's shoving on that river before it's dealt?

I think it's extremely likely on blank rivers in this spot, but the least blank possible card came. I think it's more likely than not wcg made an excellent (and correct) timing read (though u can kind of say this with simple bayesian inference). im also very suspicious when rail birds come and claim to know isildur's game and thought process better than a strong adversary of his

if all of that is correct though, why not keep the time detail to himself and let isildur make mistakes like this again and simply let the smarter readers think he is dumb for not including 2p+ in the range?

On February 17 2014 04:06 Ket wrote: I think it's extremely likely on blank rivers in this spot, but the least blank possible card came. I think it's more likely than not wcg made an excellent (and correct) timing read (though u can kind of say this with simple bayesian inference). im also very suspicious when rail birds come and claim to know isildur's game and thought process better than a strong adversary of his

I think it's more likely than not that WCG underestimated isildur with the statement: "no player would be sick enough to snap-shove, he would have to at least think for a few moments here before committing to a 470k pot when any 6 beats him". He has certainly showned in the past that this is not true, possible that it could be today when he's a little bit older and wiser. Anyway afaik WCGRider havent played that much vs isildur before this match took place, and he says this is the biggest pot of his life, and we all know this kind of pots happens everytime isildur goes to play NLH. This is of course my railbird opinion and I'm not trying to say WCGRider is not a good player or anything.

Ket sure told off those railbirds

Its not like Isldur has big timing tells, its just fucking logical that he wont snap shove 2 pair on such river.

also fwiw Isildur isnt remotely the maniac he used to be a couple of years ago

from some sort of interview, Isildur said that he started poker from small stack, something like hu sng or w/e, built up a roll and realized that people fold way too much to hyper aggression. So, he built his skill set based around hyper aggression and having a good intuition about ranges when SPR gets smaller. Hence, he used to only play 3x raise and used lots of 3bet/4bet. He did this for years and the roller coaster of variance that comes from this, he printed money and lost money, who knows much he really has.

Now, he realizes people understand range defense better and have figured out how to take advantage of his massive unbalanced hyper aggression/strategy of reducing SPR. He is smart and has since toned down his strategy, however, he still is more aggressive than mostly everyone else, as WCG said that he see less Showdowns vs Isildur. That makes building exact range v range strat vs isildur difficult, but, still profitable, as wcg calls him a noosebleed whale. Hence, why he was able to call AA in a 300bb pot on this board.

All I know for damn sure is that he didn't get great playing fucking drunk.

Fuck. Nickel and diming forever...

he puts in hours and hours of work away from the table


eventually for some people things just click, combine that with hours and hours of different type of study, add in some run good/willingness to play anyone and sometime magic happens