Poker winning in canada - Page 5

On October 24 2013 16:49 Liquid`Drone wrote: I don't understand why on earth professional poker players would or should be exempt from taxes. I mean, I understand that you guys would like to be, but I can't comprehend a single argument why 100k from poker should be taxed less than 100k from work.

Probably because poker is still seen as gambling, which means it is a losing proposition over time and done purely for entertainment.

yea but not for a professional poker player. you should just have a cap on winnings say $10k (it's like $8k in norway) that you can win before taxation takes place, and then if you're making more than that you tax it like regular salary.

On October 24 2013 16:49 Liquid`Drone wrote: so good for canadian players that your court is retarded .

that sentence kind of pissed me off...alot...
gona restrain myself from answering more

On October 24 2013 16:49 Liquid`Drone wrote: I don't understand why on earth professional poker players would or should be exempt from taxes. I mean, I understand that you guys would like to be, but I can't comprehend a single argument why 100k from poker should be taxed less than 100k from work.

I disagree with your opinion here Eri. Taxing poker winnings (to me) seems like double taxation (there are treaties to prevent this in the real world between countries in order to not to fuck with each others' citizens, as I'm sure many of you know). Why do I think it's like double taxation? Here goes:

First off, the poker room / casino / online poker room taxes you in the form of rake, so in a way you're paying taxes on something that somebody already received a cut of. Secondly, the poker room / casino / online poker room also pays taxes on it's revenue - so the government already gets a cut from your paid rake! Why should you be obliged to pay on your net winnings? What do losing players get? Tax reduction due to "expenses" or what? Come on now The offshore nature of online poker service providers is an entirely different thing (them not paying nearly enough taxes compared to their revenue), let's not discuss that here. It's a legislation issue.

In Hungary, the current law (for live poker) is that it's taxed as gambling - 40% of all winnings - but it's all coming from the cardroom's / casino's pockets (they pay 40% of all rake income, and it's heavily enforced - cameras in every legal poker room, tax revisors coming and going all the time and whatnot). If you're a Hungarian citizen and win any kind of money playing live poker (tourney or cash game, doesn't matter), it's not taxed and you can't be bothered for it. If necessary (on big tourney wins), you can ask for a certificate that the poker-room has to provide, proving you won X amount of money - for tax exemption purposes (I guess this opens doors for 'smart' people to hide some unclean money, at least that's what I would do should I have my own illegal business, but whatever. This is how the law currently is). Should you win something abroad however, then you have to pay taxes (if it's taxable in the given country), but you can choose if you want to pay taxes on it there, or in Hungary (again, to avoid double taxation, but it has to be taxed somewhere 'cuz afaik there's not a country that has live poker regulated as Hungary does).

Income and sales.

Hero and Highcard are obviously levelling. If you think you can beat the game only if the chance shines up on you, then why on earth are you playing it? Just gambling for fun?

On October 24 2013 21:06 Naib wrote: Should you win something abroad however, then you have to pay taxes (if it's taxable in the given country), but you can choose if you want to pay taxes on it there, or in Hungary (again, to avoid double taxation, but it has to be taxed somewhere 'cuz afaik there's not a country that has live poker regulated as Hungary does).

what if you lose it all on cash games? (or other tourneys)

You can always refer to low stakes to prove that poker is a neg sum game, 1000 players each deposit 1k, they play against each other everyday for a month at 25-100NL. At the end of the month, some have 10k, some 5k some 2k etc... however that 1 million they initially deposited is now prob closer to 250-400k, and if the renaming players continue to play the remaining sum just keeps decaying. The guys with 5k+ will now set up their own bigger games, and one player may end up with 25k+, and so on... The longer this goes on the less the sum of the money is and the bigger the gap between top and low. I don't think it's fair to tax the guy who ends up at the top of this mountain, since they overcame incredibly impossible odds to begin with. Objectively speaking, are they actually better then everyone else or just riding the apex of the standard deviation wave

On October 25 2013 11:07 TalentedTom wrote: You can always refer to low stakes to prove that poker is a neg sum game, 1000 players each deposit 1k, they play against each other everyday for a month at 25-100NL. At the end of the month, some have 10k, some 5k some 2k etc... however that 1 million they initially deposited is now prob closer to 250-400k, and if the renaming players continue to play the remaining sum just keeps decaying. The guys with 5k+ will now set up their own bigger games, and one player may end up with 25k+, and so on... The longer this goes on the less the sum of the money is and the bigger the gap between top and low. I don't think it's fair to tax the guy who ends up at the top of this mountain, since they overcame incredibly impossible odds to begin with.

this is why it shouldnt be taxed

Objectively speaking, are they actually better then everyone else or just riding the apex of the standard deviation wave

trying to prove this and that its all luck is just being silly

^^ yes and no. Replace 1000 people with 1000 poker bots, all 100% the same programming code. You are going to get similar results. Are the bots who make made 50x their initial investment better then those who went busto?

^ That's not how poker actually works though. In reality its a meat-grinder not a lottery. The fish get split up and devoured between the house and the pros. I can open up Stars and tell you who is who within five minutes. The casinos get taxed on their share, why shouldn't the pros be?

Simple question for the no-tax crowd -
Should professional poker players be able to freeroll the government forever? Should they be able to drive on govt roads, get govt healthcare, get police, fire, and military protection all for free for the entirety of their lives?

The answer that its not an issue because there just aren't professional poker players somehow is retarded.

" The casinos get taxed on their share, why shouldn't the pros be?"

In Canada the casinos do not get taxed because all Casinos in Canada are government owned. So by going to the casino we are already paying rake/tax to the government. So if they tax winnings on top of the rake, it would result in paying a double rake to the same institution. By playing casino games we are paying for the services mentioned above. The exception then lies in the online games that are privately owned, would be a very grey area to tax one but not the other.

On October 25 2013 12:04 TalentedTom wrote: By playing casino games we are paying for the services mentioned above.

Not sure if just the rake can cover the cost of those services though. Its also a little dubious as to whether you would actually be generating that rake or not. If you come out a winner, you're really just using the fish's money to pay the rake. If that fish were losing that money anyway, its not like your presence would be contributing any more money to the govt. But I'll concede that there may be cases where the action you're giving will keep a game going and the rake flowing.

On October 25 2013 02:39 napoleono wrote: Hero and Highcard are obviously levelling. If you think you can beat the game only if the chance shines up on you, then why on earth are you playing it? Just gambling for fun?

dhu
we never said its all luck
i really, really, did not expect someone on that site to think i was saying its only luck
of course skill if fking huge part of the game...doesnt change that luck might be 50% of the game too...

tell yourself that everytime you log in and the biggest fish ever is here, all money you get from him is luck not skill
luck because you connected at the right time
and luck because he gave it to you instead of otthers reg
skill is only a importnat part of the game at nl600+ imo
most regs just wait for coolers.. even vs fish

On October 25 2013 13:14 NMcNasty wrote: Show nested quote + On October 25 2013 12:04 TalentedTom wrote: By playing casino games we are paying for the services mentioned above. Not sure if just the rake can cover the cost of those services though. Its also a little dubious as to whether you would actually be generating that rake or not. If you come out a winner, you're really just using the fish's money to pay the rake. If that fish were losing that money anyway, its not like your presence would be contributing any more money to the govt. But I'll concede that there may be cases where the action you're giving will keep a game going and the rake flowing.

dhu
alot of people here dont work but receive like 700$ evry month from gouv. and get everything free
at least poker players dont get that 700$ a month...

also to be taxed in canada it must me seen as a buisness
which mean you can get taxes back from a entry to tournament/travel because they are buisness expenses....

On October 25 2013 16:56 HeRoS)eNGagE wrote: also to be taxed in canada it must me seen as a buisness which mean you can get taxes back from a entry to tournament/travel because they are buisness expenses....

Technically, you can go as far as saying the gas to travel place to place is a business expense, eating food on trips, etc., iirc from 2+2.

On October 25 2013 12:04 TalentedTom wrote: " The casinos get taxed on their share, why shouldn't the pros be?" In Canada the casinos do not get taxed because all Casinos in Canada are government owned. So by going to the casino we are already paying rake/tax to the government. So if they tax winnings on top of the rake, it would result in paying a double rake to the same institution. By playing casino games we are paying for the services mentioned above. The exception then lies in the online games that are privately owned, would be a very grey area to tax one but not the other.

oh actually with government owned casino where all casino profit basically goes into tax purposes I would be inclined to agree.
but pokerstars? vegas casinos? noway.

I think the most important part of the argument is that the government of canada makes an insane amount of money from any gambling game even poker so why the fuck should they tax the winnings as well. Im not sure how it is in other countrys but canada basically just takes probably like 20% of the lower classes paychecks anyway thats already basically a tax. I have alot of relatives who pump at least that every paycheck Canada has alot of degens wouldnt be surprised if we have the most the bingo halls are packed every night.

It was alot of fun when I was a poor kid and my mother would spend 50 bucks everynight.

I lost a few brain cells reading heros)engage, but for the rest, it is a nice conversation. Were you drunk for the whole convo?

I also think we should be taxed, but as a player I enjoy the fact we are not. I think in a society like Canada, it is pretty egoist of us, not to pay taxes. So yes, I think I am egoist towards the society. We get so many 'free' services paid by tax payers, doesn't make sense we don't pull our weight a little.

There are a few good reasons not to tax us tho. If winnings are taxable, loses should be deductable... which will never happen. It can happen you have a losing year, and if you don't pay any taxes that year, you are gonna run into trouble (probable tax evasion investigation, etc) + you will not get a deducted your loses from previous years.

Anyhow, I wasn't aware of the 8k cap in Norway, I think this makes a lot of sense. Whatever the cap, it makes sense to tax amounts that seem more likely to be money made from 'professional' poker, versus amator poker. Might be kind of a problem tho if you bink a big MTT or something. You could still be an amator and make 100k+ on a single event. So there might be flaws but I like the idea.

Also, I find it pretty sad that highly graded people still come up with the conclusion that it is a game of luck.

Anyhow, cheers.