2/5 Live Set 200 bb deep

We are 1k deep, game is 2/5 late at night (ppl are playing a bit more looser) but villain is TAG regular.

Truth be told, I'm not that comfortable playing 200 bb deep, but he was only 1 player at the table deep.

Villain opens $20 from CO, I defend

FLOP: $45
I check, Villain bets $30, I c/r to $130 (is this raise size ok?)

TURN: ~$310
I am a bit unsure of what to do here and more importantly why. I want to check/call but I feel like my range is super face up. Thoughts guys?

bet fold the turn. i doubt he feels comfortable reraisingthe turn with anything that does not have you beat..

if my range on the flop is polarized between nut type hands/draws don't you think he will be more inclined to fold weak made hands that can't improve and more nut type draws like high flush draws?

I c/c here. Its not entirely out of the question that live "tag" regs will put you on TT/JJ or something equally retarded and bet A9 or what have you for value on turn.
Also as a general rule, I'm not at all concerned about my hand being face up live. Even if you're a book, they have to know how to read a book for it to be relevant. A lot of live players are effectively illiterate

i use to threebet these hands like always online because there is so much room for you to get outplayed after the flop. standard play would probably be bet out 200 on turn.

Ya.. I think I'm in the "bet 200" camp on this. It disguises your hand better, you get protection vs 9x8s (we're not always benefitted by controlling pot size on turn), and if he raises any decent amount i dont mind bet-folding. I don't think anyone is bluff-raising the turn here.

The only place I think you make mistakes with this line is check-folding the river vs a pair + spade draw turned into a bluff. But I think most people just show that stuff down in that spot. So I tihnk you can c/f river pertty intelligently vs a large bet after betting turn, as his bluff range is small/less infrequent, and the only potential river VB hand you make a wrong fold to is 44.

On April 24 2012 16:00 Fraser wrote: Ya.. I think I'm in the "bet 200" camp on this. It disguises your hand better, you get protection vs 9x8s (we're not always benefitted by controlling pot size on turn), and if he raises any decent amount i dont mind bet-folding. I don't think anyone is bluff-raising the turn here. The only place I think you make mistakes with this line is check-folding the river vs a pair + spade draw turned into a bluff. But I think most people just show that stuff down in that spot. So I tihnk you can c/f river pertty intelligently vs a large bet after betting turn, as his bluff range is small/less infrequent, and the only potential river VB hand you make a wrong fold to is 44, and like 4xXs.

On April 23 2012 21:40 gawdawaful wrote: I c/c here. Its not entirely out of the question that live "tag" regs will put you on TT/JJ or something equally retarded and bet A9 or what have you for value on turn. Also as a general rule, I'm not at all concerned about my hand being face up live. Even if you're a book, they have to know how to read a book for it to be relevant. A lot of live players are effectively illiterate

he is in his 20's so he not a live tag idiot :D

bet folding turn seems so gross

i ended up check/calling, because I couldn't think of a single hand that would call a bet here given all my draws got there or i have a set. i don't think c/calling is that much better either though unfortunately. my thought process was if he floated with a gutshot or air he will bluff flush cards (even though i don't think he is floating much here ever though honestly ) if he has a flush, he will just raise the turn and i will never get to see river

but i felt this was so bad too anyway i ended up c/calling 200

River ~$710
Hero leads: 300
Villain calls with

my main point of posting this hand, is that I felt super awkward on each street, and wasn't sure where to start. turn is b/f or c/call depending on reads on villains, but my only read was that he was on the tight side. i also had a hard time coming up with hands that he would legitimate call a turn bet with. i didn't feel comfortable betting the turn, and i equally feel uncomfortable c/calling the turn as well.

i dont really feel like i made any mistakes given my hand strength, equity, and board texture. but at the same time i don't think villain made any mistakes at all either? i'm just super confused as to what my best plays are AS well as what villain's best plays are. what would you do in his shoes?

edit: maybe against what kind of player are you happy c/folding turn with if any? b/folding the turn (against passive players, who would never turn their hand into a bluff) and c/calling?
if you are villain do you call river? fold river?
edit 2: this whole hand just had me stressing out for days, and i'm not quite sure what to learn from this. except maybe hands will just play themselves and maybe our plays are both fine?

i'd bet/fold turn always and probably check/decide/soulread river obviously depending on what the river is

I don't think many people would bluff raise turn vs your range, you have so many flushes in it! I also think its ok to bet the turn when not many worse hands will call, because your hand is vulnerable, and it will prevent larger mistakes that can occur when you check and try to guess how the other player will react.

ty fraser

if i check/call turn i'd check/shove river when we hit and check/decide when we miss. cuz when villain bets turn he has a likely flush or is just airballing us anyway so give him one more chance to bluff/value bet his flush.

bet/fold turn is like super std in these spots. villan's range is a lot wider than just flush draws when he calls ur c/r on the flop, you can't give up equity by checking and letting him check behind hands with a single spade. On top of that, checking doesn't give you much info on the hand, and most of the time when you check/call on turn, villan is betting a flush and not much lighter.

any specific hands you can think of cosmo, that you personally call a c/r in position and call a turn bet with?

KK or QQ w a spade O_O?

On May 01 2012 03:56 JonnyCosMo wrote: KK or QQ w a spade O_O?

Plus some people will just call pretty light vs raise if a draw is possible.

On April 27 2012 04:33 JonnyCosMo wrote: checking doesn't give you much info on the hand, and most of the time when you check/call on turn, villan is betting a flush and not much lighter.

this is contradictory. if you are claiming that by checking you can determine quite confidently whether or not he has a flush, then checking actually gives you a ton of information.

still, i agree with everything else you wrote and i agree that bet/fold is standard

Bet and hope he looks back at his hand to see if he has a spade. prolly c/f river if he doesn't double check his cards on most rivers.

On May 09 2012 11:35 NoTalentTom wrote: Bet and hope he looks back at his hand to see if he has a spade. prolly c/f river if he doesn't double check his cards on most rivers.

1) this is actually brilliant

2) WHO ARE YOU (insert prometheus sound bite)

lead more on river?

in the bet/fold turn camp. i think its been explained to death so leave it at that.

bet/fold is standard against mediocre to strong online players. Nobody really good would be raising the turn with a flush as it is. Well actually, I guess we'd have to make an exception @ 200bb stack depth since with so many BB's in play, it could be a reasonable option with something like 67hh.

Against bad live regs checking probably is the best play on the turn, lol. It's just overall not a good play for your overall range because it means your turn value range consists of only flushes, that's why most people are like "duh, b/f". You can play super exploitative against some guys (just like you did, by just c/c turn and just donking out on rivers that improve you and c/f ones that don't since a weak reg isn't going to VB worse and probably will be too scared to pull the trigger on the river if he did happen to bet the turn as a bluff. Be careful though when classifying players cuz some regs are just bad spewy and will empty it every time, and others are kinda better and they will really own you if you check here.