Internet poker drama strike again: Doug “WCGRider” Polk against Ben Tollerene

Well, it wasn't long since last drama struck internet poker and we are back on track with gossips and unsettled deals between poker players being brought to public. Doug “WCGRider” Polk and Ben Tollerene started arguing over a coaching deal the two online high-stakes poker stars reportedly made four years ago, but one player felt scammed.

The details of the coaching deal were made public on 2+2 poker forum yesterday by “WCGRider“, who has uploaded also a 30-minute Youtube-video, where he explains the story from his point of view.

Polk claims that he coached Ben “Ben86” Tollerene in No-Limit Hold’em in exchange for some Pot-Limit Omaha coaching sessions. After Polk finished his part of the bargain, Tollerene backed from the deal in last minute:
“I tried to have this conversation with you 2 years ago. But you ignored a very well thought out message I sent you detailing the events that happened and instead responded a day later with “I can’t deal with this”. Didn’t hear back from you a single time since then.

Oh wait, I did hear back from you! A year later when you sat me at 500/1k cap. What kind of psychopath behaves like that, I teach you the baseline for my view into No Limit, talk to you about a bunch of concepts, and then you try to go after me at the highest stakes on the internet 9 months later.

Ben you are a scumbag and many people know it. You have a lot of friends that are truly great people (Don, Jakoon, Galfond, etc) but it is absolutely disgusting to me that you let on that you are a nice guy with how horrible of a person you truly are.”

With such harsh accusations aimed at him, Tollerene felt the urge to tell his side of the story in another post yesterday. Basically, Tollerene acknowledges a coaching deal was made some time ago, but he couldn’t give coaching because he had to respect his “partner in PLO”, who was not comfortable to share information with Doug Polk:

“Alright I guess we’re doing it. Here’s what happened, this was about 4 years ago. Doug moves to my building in Van and we hangout a couple times and talk about swapping NL and PLO coaching. I am interested, I think it’s a good idea. Doug coaches me first, I think about 4 sessions and half of that focused on a hu match. I sell him a piece and we do really well. I tell him I have to talk to my partner in PLO (who is on his way out of poker) before we can talk PLO. The guy I did all of my work with. I am confident that since my partner is leaving poker and we have done extremely well together that there is no way sharing with Doug will be a problem, and I’m thinking he will get pieces of the action so this is just positive for everyone. My partner surprises me and says no. I have to respect it, so I apologize to Doug and say I can’t do it. I still did let him sweat me a few times and we talked a little about PLO, but nothing great. I admit he got shorted, and it was not my intention. I sincerely thought it would be fine and once my partner said no I had no options.

We are fine after this. Doug doesn’t bring up having an issue with it, I think he made like 70k and understood my intentions and what happened. Then we go out drinking one night, it’s late and we’re wasted. Doug starts giving his #1 in the world speech and I tell him I don’t agree, his sample is too small, etc. We argue for a while and he eventually breaks down and get’s really upset. We talk it out until about 5AM in his room, hug each other, and we’re cool. I wake up the next morning to an essay on Skype about why we cannot be friends anymore. Given that I already didn’t like being around Doug very much, I thought ok fine we aren’t friends anymore and left it at that. We had another deal at this time which he unilaterally closed with absolutely no right to do so, but I didn’t say anything because being done with Doug was agreeable.

A year later I sit him at CAPNL because I’m a pro poker player and I think I can beat him. He sits out. Then in Vegas we are both playing the 100k at Bellagio and he walks up to me and goes “so sitting me at the ole 500/1k eh?” I said yeah, and then he said something that I can’t remember along the lines of “that’s kind of ****ty”. (Doug and I never talked CAPNL strat). I suggest we talk and he says “no I’m good”. So again I’m just content to have no Doug relationship. Apparently he held a grudge.

I don’t think anyone in the entire HS community other than you thinks those things about me and you’re way out of line talking like that. Please tell me who these people are. Tell me what horrible things I’ve done. I’ve never cheated or scammed anyone. I’ve had business relationships and done 6-7 figure transactions and balances with most of the nosebleed community and never had a problem with anyone (other than you).”

"Vicarious. Why can't you just admit it!" - Maynard

Maybe my favorite song from the 10,000 Days album.

"stay classy, poker."
"???????? ???????? , ????? ."
"????????"
"?????? ???? ? ???? ?????? ."
"likti madingas , pokeris ."
"flott stag , poker ."

Doug saying Ben "scammed" him seems very out of line in this context. Ben didn't really do anything wrong other than be a massive douche.

Disagree. Seems like a scam to me and a huge one. Ben should ask his "partner in PLO" before making a deal with Doug.

Both being huge douches aside, if you make a deal and don't hold your end of the bargain, you're a scammer.

On September 08 2016 08:07 JonnyCosMo wrote: Doug saying Ben "scammed" him seems very out of line in this context. Ben didn't really do anything wrong other than be a massive douche.

scam? 100%

"sorry i cant teach you, my knowledge belongs to my partner not me"

"oops i guess i lied thanks for your invaluable holdem knowledge bye"

On September 07 2016 23:38 RiKD wrote: "Vicarious. Why can't you just admit it!" - Maynard Maybe my favorite song from the 10,000 Days album.

Forever shall we wait for their next album

But then again im waiting for Patrick Rothfuss's & George RR Martin's work so ...

On September 08 2016 08:07 JonnyCosMo wrote: Doug saying Ben "scammed" him seems very out of line in this context. Ben didn't really do anything wrong other than be a massive douche.

Agreed, the word gets thrown around too easily. A "scam" is premeditated and more elaborate. Plenty of degens in the poker world can't hold up their end of deals for whatever reason but aren't "scammers". Just semantic nitpickery though. The scandal still delivers for the lols with the "hugging it out" and horseback riding on the beach.

Wcg: "tell me your deepest plo secrets ben"
Ben: "I can't betray... My partner"

Lol at ben you fucking scumbag. Trying to act all chill. If it were the other way he would be pissed that he just got bent over and fucked.

Nobody seems to bring up the part that he sits in Doug's HU tables at HSNL 9 months later after he's revealed his shit to Ben
-Scammer and a Dbag

On September 08 2016 13:32 Rinny wrote: Wcg: "tell me your deepest plo secrets ben" Ben: "I can't betray... My partner"

LOL

On September 08 2016 08:07 JonnyCosMo wrote: Doug saying Ben "scammed" him seems very out of line in this context. Ben didn't really do anything wrong other than be a massive douche.

i agree somewhat but it's all a question of what Ben86's intentions were

if he premeditatedly decided he was not going to coach WCG in PLO before getting the NL coaching then in reality he did steal an absurd amount of money from him in equity which is pretty much a scam in my book

Maybe have Ben put something in escrow instead of just taking his word for it? ...what am I thinking? Poker players 99% of the time stick to their word.

Ben fucked Berri pretty bad as well.

On September 08 2016 18:08 TimDawg wrote: Show nested quote + On September 08 2016 08:07 JonnyCosMo wrote: Doug saying Ben "scammed" him seems very out of line in this context. Ben didn't really do anything wrong other than be a massive douche. i agree somewhat but it's all a question of what Ben86's intentions were if he premeditatedly decided he was not going to coach WCG in PLO before getting the NL coaching then in reality he did steal an absurd amount of money from him in equity which is pretty much a scam in my book

I don't think it was a matter of intentions. If he wasn't sure, he should have asked his partner first before agreeing to the deal. Or even before receiving coaching from Doug, not AFTER. Either way he definitely set it up so he freerolled the shit out of Doug.

what he did to berri sweet was so gross lol
almost malicious

On September 08 2016 22:28 MiPwnYa wrote: what he did to berri sweet was so gross lol almost malicious

Can u sum up what happened? Dont remeber/never heard of that event

Googled it
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showpost.php?p=50725419&postcount=358

On September 08 2016 13:03 Spitfiree wrote: Show nested quote + On September 07 2016 23:38 RiKD wrote: "Vicarious. Why can't you just admit it!" - Maynard Maybe my favorite song from the 10,000 Days album. Forever shall we wait for their next album But then again im waiting for Patrick Rothfuss's & George RR Martin's work so ...

Indeed.

Had to look up Rothfuss. Looks promising! I may have to check that out but I have quite a lot of books I am getting through at the moment.

On September 08 2016 08:07 JonnyCosMo wrote: Doug saying Ben "scammed" him seems very out of line in this context. Ben didn't really do anything wrong other than be a massive douche.

lol no, how is this not a massive smam?

they had a deal; trading nl coaching for plo coaching. Doug teaches him; ben welches.

now Ben can sit the highest stakes next to WCG stealing action that would otherwise be going to doug. If some weaker regs want to play 500/1k heads up that could potentially cost doug 100s of K in EV in a short time.

So Ben can now play any stakes at NL after getting extensive coaching from #1 while WCG cannot compete at PLO like he would have been able to had Ben followed through with his end of the deal.

If you read the big thread you will see a bunch of other scummy shit from Ben as well like scamming BERRI SWEET.

On September 08 2016 13:11 NMcNasty wrote: Show nested quote + On September 08 2016 08:07 JonnyCosMo wrote: Doug saying Ben "scammed" him seems very out of line in this context. Ben didn't really do anything wrong other than be a massive douche. Agreed, the word gets thrown around too easily. A "scam" is premeditated and more elaborate. Plenty of degens in the poker world can't hold up their end of deals for whatever reason but aren't "scammers". Just semantic nitpickery though. The scandal still delivers for the lols with the "hugging it out" and horseback riding on the beach.

This likely was premeditated... it has been exposed that ben is actually a pretty weird dude. got picked on in HS or whatever and has some complex now. treats everyone like shit and using every chance to get over on someone

On September 08 2016 18:08 TimDawg wrote: Show nested quote + On September 08 2016 08:07 JonnyCosMo wrote: Doug saying Ben "scammed" him seems very out of line in this context. Ben didn't really do anything wrong other than be a massive douche. i agree somewhat but it's all a question of what Ben86's intentions were if he premeditatedly decided he was not going to coach WCG in PLO before getting the NL coaching then in reality he did steal an absurd amount of money from him in equity which is pretty much a scam in my book

worse if premeditated (i think it was- he clearly hated doug from day1. "i hate people who look like you!!" -Ben86)

but either way he is consciously ripping doug off. I don't care what agreement he has with his partner ultimately he owes doug coaching, had the ability to give it and chose not to.

On September 08 2016 22:28 MiPwnYa wrote: what he did to berri sweet was so gross lol almost malicious

almost?

certainly was. very clear he would want 100% of the 40k had Sauce won 80k instead of Trueteller. He doing everything he can to weasel out of payment including setting up biased arbitration. Ben is slimy as fuck

There's just no possible way you're going to enter a coaching arrangement that involves a 3rd party without consulting with that 3rd party first. If Ben knew that he had to ask permission to offer coaching, then he would have done that before accepting the deal and then accepting coaching on top of it. You might as well try to order a car off ebay and after submitting payment the seller says "ok now let me see if my wife will let me sell it".

The poker scene has the most lenient community i've ever seen. It's a scammers wet dream...
I wouldn't worry about Ben. Guys like him end up getting it back ten-fold.

cliffnotes on the Berri thing?

On September 09 2016 09:40 Baalim wrote: cliffnotes on the Berri thing?

it's really confusing and hard to cliff, but basically:

- some guy BERRI got approached by Ben to bet on a Sauce vs Trueteller HU (crossbooking Sauce's action).

- Ben made it clear he was betting on Sauce, and BERRI thought Ben was asking him to split action (so they were both betting on Sauce effectively I think). However, Ben thought BERRI was betting against him directly on Trueteller. (personal note: the post is very vague about how this misunderstanding came about and he posts a chat log that still reads confusingly)

- After the HU, Trueteller won, and Ben thought he owed BERRI 40k and stated such to BERRI, who then informed him he thought that he was betting with Ben not against him

- Ben told him that he thinks the bet is a wash given the circumstances

- BERRI says effectively 'lol no, if Sauce won the HU you woulda obv asked me to pay you'

- Ben says they should have a third party decide and suggests Ike

- BERRI claims he didn't know Ben and Ike were friends, Ben sends snippets of a text convo where Ike appears to agree the bet should be a wash, BERRI calls foul and essentially claims the 'arbitration' was a sham. BERRI says both Ben and Ike refused to send a full transcript of their convo.

- 6 more weeks of BERRI and Ben going back and forth

- Ben agrees to a different 3rd party arbitrator

- New 3rd party says that "66%" of the misunderstanding was BERRI's fault, so he's only due 33% of the bet or something

- BERRI accepts new 3rd party decision, but felt the need to publicize his perceived collusion between Ben and Ike to hide their friendship and run an unfair '3rd party' consultation

- End

I might have misunderstood some of the drama, it was a long post, but that was the gist of it.

This is better than Game of Thrones.

dat drama was epic. Ben not paying the full 40k to berri is absurd, considering he would have 100% wanted to get 40k if things had gone the other way. Also seems like the "coaching" was possibly some kind of program swap? That would explain more why ben was unable to reciprocate ?

On September 09 2016 14:36 MezmerizePLZ wrote: Also seems like the "coaching" was possibly some kind of program swap? That would explain more why ben was unable to reciprocate ?

this was 100% my presumption as well, or at least something more than just 'coaching'.

The swaps were seperate from the coaching. The swaps went down before during and after the coaching scam

On September 08 2016 23:57 traxamillion wrote: Show nested quote + On September 08 2016 22:28 MiPwnYa wrote: what he did to berri sweet was so gross lol almost malicious almost? certainly was. very clear he would want 100% of the 40k had Sauce won 80k instead of Trueteller. He doing everything he can to weasel out of payment including setting up biased arbitration. Ben is slimy as fuck

I'm saying almost cuz ppl like ben usually lie to themselves and are delusional enough to believe that they're not doing anything wrong. I'm sure that at no point, in either story, Ben thought to himself "aight let's scam this motherfucker".
Curiously the thing that disgusted me the most was a chat between him and urubu11 where he refuses to loan urubu $100 after taking his whole roll ($32k) on a single flip, on the grounds that "he doesn't do loans". I know it's not unethical but it really shows how greedy and ruthless Ben is.