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Handnr: 1053658
Submitted by : fira

Full Tilt Poker Game #35559166640: Table Play Chip 423 (6 max) - NL Hold'em - 250K/500K - 06:51:07 ET - 2015/05/10
Seat 1: WhatKindaNameIsThat (53,850,000)
Seat 2: AllinOrFold (36,640,000)
Seat 3: DancinDonkey (60,210,000)
Seat 4: CloudDweller (109,820,000)
Seat 6: ScaredNit (86,750,000)
DancinDonkey posts the small blind of 250,000
CloudDweller posts the big blind of 500,000
The button is in seat #2

Holecards(Odds)
Dealt to CloudDweller8s8c
ScaredNit calls 500,000
WhatKindaNameIsThat folds
AllinOrFold folds
DancinDonkey raises to 1,500,000
CloudDweller has 15 seconds left to act
CloudDweller raises to 4,500,000
ScaredNit calls 4,000,000
DancinDonkey calls 3,000,000

Flop(Odds) (Pot : $13,500,000.00)

   8dJc5h
DancinDonkey checks
CloudDweller has 15 seconds left to act
CloudDweller bets 6,500,000
ScaredNit folds
DancinDonkey calls 6,500,000

Turn(Odds) (Pot : $26,500,000.00)

   8dJc5h4c
DancinDonkey checks
CloudDweller has 15 seconds left to act
CloudDweller has requested TIME
CloudDweller bets 98,820,000, and is all in
DancinDonkey has 15 seconds left to act
DancinDonkey has been disconnected
DancinDonkey has 89 seconds to reconnect
DancinDonkey has reconnected
DancinDonkey has 15 seconds left to act
DancinDonkey calls 49,210,000, and is all in
CloudDweller shows8s8c
DancinDonkey showsJdAd
Uncalled bet of 49,610,000 returned to CloudDweller

River (Pot : $124,920,000.00)

   8dJc5h4c7c
CloudDweller shows three of a kind, Eights
DancinDonkey shows a pair of Jacks
CloudDweller wins the pot (124,520,000) with three of a kind, Eights

Summary
Total pot 124,920,000 | Rake 400,000
Board:8dJc5h4c7c
Seat 1: WhatKindaNameIsThat didn't bet (folded)
Seat 2: AllinOrFold (button) didn't bet (folded)
Seat 3: DancinDonkey (small blind) showedJdAd and lost with a pair of Jacks
Seat 4: CloudDweller (big blind) showed8s8c and won (124,520,000) with three of a kind, Eights
Seat 6: ScaredNit folded on the Flop

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Comments

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fira   United States. May 12 2015 10:53. Posts 6340

villain is one of the best players i've played in play money. he has some leaks but they don't really apply to this particular hand

my reasoning for shoving turn for slightly under 2x pot was because i didn't want to bet 2/3 and give him a perfect shove ratio with all his combo draws, so when i bet 2/3 i VERY rarely have any kind of semibluff, so i'd be unbalanced towards value hands or pure-ish air. i'd probably either check back with a good draw or do what i did here.

i think another plan here is to bet 2/3 with a polarized range of nuts and near-pure air, since he cannot really call the bet with a draw being OOP and SPR so low, therefore he is forced to shove a lot of good draws and i can just fold my random air.

which option do you guys prefer on the turn? (betting 2/3 with nuts/pure air and checking back draws, or shoving 2xpot with nuts/semibluffs and checking back air?) aside from these two options is there anything else we can do?

also, i thought about checking back with this hand, but the board is so draw heavy i really didn't want to. we have to do it sometimes though?

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 Last edit: 12/05/2015 10:59

VanDerMeyde   Norway. May 12 2015 14:51. Posts 4950

Why dont you play real money ?

:D 

Nitewin   United States. May 12 2015 16:38. Posts 1143

IMO, If you're thinking of checking this back, your analysis is completely off.
You want to bet pot+ to price his combo draws out or make him feel silly for folding on the river for such a small bet relative to pot. He's not gonna reshove a combo draw unless you're deeper.
2x pot shove represents a combo draw or something good like AJ+ (AJ being the bottom of that range)


Jubert69   United States. May 12 2015 17:41. Posts 3190


  On May 12 2015 13:51 VanDerMeyde wrote:
Why dont you play real money ?



His location.


VanDerMeyde   Norway. May 12 2015 18:17. Posts 4950


  On May 12 2015 16:41 Jubert69 wrote:
Show nested quote +



His location.


And ? There are ton of U.S sites...

:D 

HungarianGOD   . May 12 2015 18:51. Posts 459


  On May 12 2015 15:38 Nitewin wrote:
IMO, If you're thinking of checking this back, your analysis is completely off.
You want to bet pot+ to price his combo draws out or make him feel silly for folding on the river for such a small bet relative to pot. He's not gonna reshove a combo draw unless you're deeper.
2x pot shove represents a combo draw or something good like AJ+ (AJ being the bottom of that range)



He wasn't thinking of checking, I think he was just asking a question about balance. Should he usually balance this against semi-bluffs ripping it all-in, or should he balance it with air in which case he would bet/fold his air with a sizing of 2/3 (and then obviously bet/call with this).

Is there a reason you couldn't do both, and use some of your nutty hands to balance the semi-bluffing and some to balance the pure air?


bigredhoss   Cook Islands. May 12 2015 19:44. Posts 8633


  On May 12 2015 17:17 VanDerMeyde wrote:
Show nested quote +



And ? There are ton of U.S sites...



i don't know where he lives but i believe online gambling is illegal in some states like Washington.

Truck-Crash LifeLast edit: 12/05/2015 19:47

goose58   United States. May 12 2015 19:53. Posts 871

You should at least get staked man. I've never seen somebody post so much and play so much at play money; you obviously have drive + skill.

As for your analysis, I'd say you are over thinking things.

You don't need to be super balanced at play money. Your opponents probably don't even understand that concept, and even if they think they do, they probably apply it wrong.

At low stakes(or no stakes), hand value is king and should make up the bulk of your winnings. Bluffing is OK at times, but they should be reserved for spots you know your opponent will make an illogical fold against your range(Ax on turn and he folds because scary).


Nitewin   United States. May 12 2015 20:14. Posts 1143


  On May 12 2015 17:51 HungarianGOD wrote:
Show nested quote +



He wasn't thinking of checking, I think he was just asking a question about balance. Should he usually balance this against semi-bluffs ripping it all-in, or should he balance it with air in which case he would bet/fold his air with a sizing of 2/3 (and then obviously bet/call with this).

Is there a reason you couldn't do both, and use some of your nutty hands to balance the semi-bluffing and some to balance the pure air?


gotcha i was skimming... nice thought process for play money


fira   United States. May 12 2015 20:25. Posts 6340


  On May 12 2015 13:51 VanDerMeyde wrote:
Why dont you play real money ?


i dunno i like play money
there are a few very good players, and i like the atmosphere for the most part
also i tried to deposit onto ACR a couple days ago, had to go through a live phone call process and the dude finally told me i had to contact my bank to enable international transfers or something. zzz didn't end up bothering with that.


  On May 12 2015 15:38 Nitewin wrote:
IMO, If you're thinking of checking this back, your analysis is completely off.
You want to bet pot+ to price his combo draws out or make him feel silly for folding on the river for such a small bet relative to pot. He's not gonna reshove a combo draw unless you're deeper.
2x pot shove represents a combo draw or something good like AJ+ (AJ being the bottom of that range)


i would be shoving a combodraw in his spot vs a 2/3 bet at this SPR very very often unless i had an exploitative read not to. i'd also be shoving a good chunk of value hands to push out IP's semibluffs, assuming he has any. that's why i don't like betting 2/3 with a semibluff, it gets pushed out by a rebluffing semibluff. yeah stacks are SLIGHTLY shallow but i think if i bet 2/3, it's still a great spot for him to shove a combodraw as long as my betting range is balanced and not 100% nuts. also, my reasoning for wanting to check back the turn was essentially to set a trap and represent air, taking the risk of a danger card falling on river. i want to do this for balance, because my check back range is so insanely weak on blank rivers


  On May 12 2015 17:51 HungarianGOD wrote:
He wasn't thinking of checking, I think he was just asking a question about balance. Should he usually balance this against semi-bluffs ripping it all-in, or should he balance it with air in which case he would bet/fold his air with a sizing of 2/3 (and then obviously bet/call with this).

Is there a reason you couldn't do both, and use some of your nutty hands to balance the semi-bluffing and some to balance the pure air?



indeed it is a question of balance. i think doing both is probably optimal, however i don't really know when to do one or the other; both seem like equally good options. flip a mental coin i guess?


  On May 12 2015 18:53 goose58 wrote:
You should at least get staked man. I've never seen somebody post so much and play so much at play money; you obviously have drive + skill.

As for your analysis, I'd say you are over thinking things.

You don't need to be super balanced at play money. Your opponents probably don't even understand that concept, and even if they think they do, they probably apply it wrong.

At low stakes(or no stakes), hand value is king and should make up the bulk of your winnings. Bluffing is OK at times, but they should be reserved for spots you know your opponent will make an illogical fold against your range(Ax on turn and he folds because scary).


i don't see how i'm over thinking things? yeah a lot of opponents i play against do suck, but i always take EXTENSIVE notes on anyone i play, and am quite aware of how to exploit leaky players. this particular opponent was a very good player for play money. also i'm trying to work on improving my game, not just collect as much winnings as possible.


Big_Rob_isback   United States. May 12 2015 20:56. Posts 197

The highest stakes play money is pretty fun every once in a while if you don't play poker anymore. You can try new bluff lines and not feel bad about winning/losing.

just playing live poker for fun 

SPEWTARD   Peru. May 12 2015 21:59. Posts 4303

u cant even sell playmoney anymore =/

Rise and Shine 

goose58   United States. May 12 2015 22:21. Posts 871

You want to improve your game but not collect as much winnings as possible? Sounds like an excuse for FPS.

Against his specific hand, you bet 2x pot on the turn, for 180bb~ invested total, and he called with TPTK. If this is standard for him, why decrease your EV by adding a bunch of bluffs to your turn range? This guy won't fold TPTK for any amount, and you claim he's good. He must think you're pretty bad to make this humongous call.

You're over thinking things because you made the highest EV play against his specific hand(and probably his range) yet you talk about checking back the turn for " balance " and adding bluffs.

If you want a challenge, if you want to improve your game, go to pennies and work your way up. Digest some of the new poker material.

*jackie chan confused meme*

 Last edit: 12/05/2015 22:26

fira   United States. May 12 2015 22:32. Posts 6340

dude what are you talking about... i'm trying to figure out this specific spot where the SPR is around 2.

i don't have FPS lol most of my plays are extremely opponent dependent. why do you say his play is bad? and why would he have to think i'm bad to call? it's a very typical spot for combodraws to be shoving. see this hand: https://www.liquidpoker.net/h/1050621

and just because i made the highest EV play doesnt mean it was actually the best play. when i made the play i had no idea what he had or his range, i was trying to balance my own range to make myself unexploitable. this hand didn't have much to do with the opponent tbh, which is why i didn't talk about him much.

tbh i feel my game has improved a lot from playing HU play money. not really about play money, more about HU.

sry if i sound irritated its cause i am, not just cause of this but other shit irl but really i dont understand what youre trying to say... i just want opinions on how to approach this spot where SPR is very awkward.

also to add i'm pretty sick of all this anti-hype about play money. poker is a fucking game, like starcraft or diablo, it dont matter none if there aint no fuckin reward in da fuckin end SHIET just play to have fun


  On May 12 2015 20:59 SPEWTARD wrote:
u cant even sell playmoney anymore =/


yes sad news indeed.

 Last edit: 12/05/2015 22:44

bigredhoss   Cook Islands. May 12 2015 22:44. Posts 8633

fira UNLEASHED

Truck-Crash Life 

casinocasino   Canada. May 12 2015 23:12. Posts 3334

I mostly agree with goose.

I would even say your doing your poker game more harm then good


goose58   United States. May 12 2015 23:26. Posts 871

Well you know these games better than I do, as well as yourself and your opponent.

Regarding your SPR, the turn for me is a bet somewhere between one that denies him odds to call profitably with his draws and one that sets up a (near)river pot sized shove. Or a shove if I think my opponent will call(and if this is true I would change my range to be very value heavy, checking back the turn with weak hands).

What I'm saying is you don't need many bluffs in your range at play money. As a primitive example, paper rock scissors: if your opponent plays nothing but rock, why would we play " unexploitable " GTO which is neutral EV, when we could just exploit him by playing 100% paper, and win massively.

I know you are a good player because you used to play mid-low stakes, and I think you are severely value cutting yourself by sticking to play money games.

BTW, I don't like preflop either.

Just IMO, not trying to inflame you.


fira   United States. May 12 2015 23:28. Posts 6340

i'm trying to get opinions about how to play this spot and goose tells me that my opponents probably don't even understand poker, so who cares just go for value and bluffs are ok but i better navigate carefully. like wtf, how would he know my opponents better than i do? its like stakes-autopiloting, just assume everyone who plays this stake belongs in this category of poker players etc. that is the definition of robotic and fishy thinking. and then this clown above agrees with him providing no reasons no help for my hand and just negs me. thanks LP i'm done


fira   United States. May 12 2015 23:34. Posts 6340


  On May 12 2015 22:26 goose58 wrote:
Well you know these games better than I do, as well as yourself and your opponent.

Regarding your SPR, the turn for me is a bet somewhere between one that denies him odds to call profitably with his draws and one that sets up a (near)river pot sized shove. Or a shove if I think my opponent will call(and if this is true I would change my range to be very value heavy, checking back the turn with weak hands).

What I'm saying is you don't need many bluffs in your range at play money. As a primitive example, paper rock scissors: if your opponent plays nothing but rock, why would we play " unexploitable " GTO which is neutral EV, when we could just exploit him by playing 100% paper, and win massively.

I know you are a good player because you used to play mid-low stakes, and I think you are severely value cutting yourself by sticking to play money games.

BTW, I don't like preflop either.

Just IMO, not trying to inflame you.


thanks this was more what i was looking for. well the 2nd paragraph anyway. when you say "What I'm saying is you don't need many bluffs in your range at play money." it is absolutely terrible to assume players will do a certain thing just because they play a certain stake. i've played a ton of players at play money and everyone has their own unique play style and "poker personality", i play very different depending on WHO i'm playing not what stakes. that shit doesn't matter!!! preflop i was trying to isolate by making the limper fold


fira   United States. May 12 2015 23:35. Posts 6340

SRY BAD MOOD I APOLOGIZE FOR STUPIDITY BUT NO REALLY BUT SORT OF.. AFK


fira   United States. May 12 2015 23:39. Posts 6340


  On May 12 2015 22:26 goose58 wrote:
Regarding your SPR, the turn for me is a bet somewhere between one that denies him odds to call profitably with his draws and one that sets up a (near)river pot sized shove. Or a shove if I think my opponent will call(and if this is true I would change my range to be very value heavy, checking back the turn with weak hands).



when you bet an amount that denies him odds to call profitably with his draws, what range are you doing this with? one of my main points was that doing this with a good draw ourselves is dangerous because opponent could easily shove, forcing us to fold, so to adjust we do it with nuts and pure air instead so our draw equity is not wasted. with draws we either overbetjam or check behind.......... pretty sure this was all in my first post

 Last edit: 12/05/2015 23:40

traxamillion   United States. May 13 2015 08:12. Posts 10419

his turn call is bad, i doubt u balance bluffs properly here.

Nothing you say about this hand makes sense. Why wouldn't you want to give him a perfect bluff ratio to shove combodraws? U want him to fold? u have set you are favorite.

Also what combodraws? It's a 3bet pot and he calls a solid flop bet on a very draw board. He doesn't have many draws here at all.

You should bet turn smaller and get proper value out of a jack. Not this.


traxamillion   United States. May 13 2015 08:28. Posts 10419

You don't really need to worry about combodraw vs combodraw situations; highly unlikely.If it does happen, If you bet 2/3 pot with 910cc and get raised then just call


fira   United States. May 13 2015 09:55. Posts 6340


  On May 13 2015 07:12 traxamillion wrote:
his turn call is bad, i doubt u balance bluffs properly here.

Nothing you say about this hand makes sense. Why wouldn't you want to give him a perfect bluff ratio to shove combodraws? U want him to fold? u have set you are favorite.

Also what combodraws? It's a 3bet pot and he calls a solid flop bet on a very draw board. He doesn't have many draws here at all.

You should bet turn smaller and get proper value out of a jack. Not this.



with my actual hand i obv want to get it allin, but i'm playing a range and thinking about what else i could have that would not want him to bluff a draw, and those hands are the good draws i have (8+ outers). with those hands i'd either want to check back for free card or overbetjam like this, so i decided to take this hand and rep a draw trying to get him off another draw. there aren't that many combodraws perse, but there are a decent amount of "good" draws (AXc with or without a pair, 8Xc, 4Xc, 9T, 97) i guess there would be a lot more if the 67 didn't hit, or if it was double flush board. is this SPR a bit too deep for a shoving range? the point where i usually start shoving is when SPR is about 1.5, and this one was about 1.9~.


  On May 13 2015 07:28 traxamillion wrote:
You don't really need to worry about combodraw vs combodraw situations; highly unlikely.If it does happen, If you bet 2/3 pot with 910cc and get raised then just call



i kinda like that, betting 2/3 pot with the best combodraws as a semibluff and calling it off. though i'd rather shove, since it will get more fold equity and may force out some draws that have us dominated (AXc)

what do we do with the 8-9 outers like 9Td or AXc? AKc has potentially about as many outs as T9c.

also, is it just completely crazy here to check back a set or a straight in this spot once in a blue moon? or will we have enough random SDV hands rivering 2pair/trips for our ckbk range to be protected on blanks that we don't ever need to trap with anything on this board?

 Last edit: 13/05/2015 11:07

 

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