Winning vs Learning

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Day[9] United States. Jul 07 2008 15:34. Posts 3447

As many of you may know, I'm going to USC School of Cinematic Arts in the fall to study Interactive Media AKA video game design. As much as I love an action, RPG, or adventure style game, I've always had a passion for the competitive game, a game in which the joy comes from the discovery, finesse, and execution of the strategy rather than the story or mechanics. So, as i'm combing through my reading list of books on game design, I managed to find an excellent book about playing competitive games: Playing to Win by David Sirlin. (visit his website at www.sirlin.net

Though he covers a ton about the mindset of a good competitive player vs a scrub, Sirlin wrote a particularly memorable section about playing vs better or vs weaker players. In this section, Sirlin notes that many players have a desire to play only against experts in order to "see how the real game is played" or to "make sure there's a challenge." Though the player may get raped by the expert, the player feels as though he's learning hard lessons the fast way and avoiding "boring games vs newbies."

However, Sirlin notes that expert players are extraordinarily good at hiding their weak points and abusing the weaknesses of their opponents. Consequently, in the process of getting raped again and again by the expert, the player will quickly learn what NOT to do. However, since its so difficult to see the weaknesses of the expert, the player will never actually learn what he SHOULD do. As a result, its critically important to play vs the weaker opponents, so that you can explicitly see where certain mistakes arise. Eventually, you'll have a framework for winning that you can fine tune once you play vs an expert, rather than going in blind.

I found this resonated strongly with my experience playing StarCraft. On PGT, whenever there was a MOTW (map of the week), i would inevitably play only that map and get up to the A/A- range when the week changed. At this point, the MOTW would change and I would have to play on a totally unfamiliar map, and I just felt COMPLETELY uncomfortable playing against the other A/A- ranked players. Therefore, I would simply create a new account, start at D, and work my way up to A/A- again on the new map. The process would repeat on a weekly basis until i had 5-6 accounts. I always told myself I was "building my comfort" with the map, but Sirlin perfectly articulates my problem: I needed to play against weaker players to develop a framework for winning, a solution for the new map.

So, as I wrote in my last blog, I had to withdraw my entire bankroll except for 555$. Though many people were writing about a stake, I've decided it would be an exceptionally beneficial exercise to begin working from the ground up again. I've pretty much hung at the 400-600NL range on and off for a long time and the games have changed alot over time. Rather than try to "play vs the better players" at 400-600NL, i think it will be best to start from the ground up, as Sirlin writes, in order to build a better framework for the different games today. Hopefully it will be educational, exciting, and fun! (and hopefully I won't have too many comments on my 25NL hands of "why are you playing DOWN HERE?"

Now how's THAT for optimism

<33333 LP!!

-Sean

0 votes

Last edit: 07/07/2008 15:37

PplusAD Germany. Jul 07 2008 15:40. Posts 7182

hoefully u play on pokerstars i guess ?

i am not keen on having u at the Nl100 tables on Ipoker ever

btw good luck rebuilding !

U see what i did there with A8 ? He 4 bets and there we go insta jam A8 : ---booooom -- . hahahaha ( Krantz)

Last edit: 07/07/2008 15:41

vegable United States. Jul 07 2008 15:43. Posts 2453

Good post. Mind making a 30-minute 100NL 6-max vid while you're down here? Just a thought

though it sounds like you probably don't have the time. To see you zip back up to 200NL by the end of this month is gonna be fun to watch hah

Stir fry Normandy

Logiabs~ Colombia. Jul 07 2008 15:43. Posts 9133

good luck day!!

bane United States. Jul 07 2008 15:51. Posts 2379

cant wait to see you at my 25NL tables! ok not really but good luck haha

battsmasta United States. Jul 07 2008 15:53. Posts 90

Wow, that was a good read. thanks!

Syntax United States. Jul 07 2008 16:09. Posts 4415

great read
i wanna get that book

wut wut wut

DustySwedeDude Sweden. Jul 07 2008 16:17. Posts 8623

I withdrew everything but 206 USD a year ago. It sucks, but you'll rebuild fast.

PoorUser This user is a quality poster

United States. Jul 07 2008 16:18. Posts 7472

feel free to pick my brain about 25nl hands :D...ive got nothing but free time now

glgl, see you back at 600nl soon

Gambler Emeritus

D_Zoo Canada. Jul 07 2008 16:25. Posts 4013

oops I got u confused with rikD.....my bad my bad

You aint a poet ur just a drunk with a pen

Last edit: 07/07/2008 16:34

ahk88 United States. Jul 07 2008 16:30. Posts 635

damn, i was going to move up to 25nl soon. i guess i gotta grind nl 10 a while before you move up stakes. gl

NerO United States. Jul 07 2008 16:33. Posts 2402

see u at 25NL

TenBagger United States. Jul 07 2008 17:16. Posts 2018

GL rebuilding!

also, if you're going to be involved in game design, AI, and game theory, I strongly suggest you pick up Go.

[vital]Myth This user is a quality poster

United States. Jul 07 2008 17:46. Posts 12159

should be a pretty ez robusto imo

glgl

Eh, I can go a few more orbits in life, before taxes blind me out - PoorUser

Ezekiell Hungary. Jul 07 2008 18:03. Posts 718

ok, skip NL50 AND NL100 plz, ok thx

seriously, gl, u were always one of my SC "idols" u will be back to MS/HS in no time, gl again!

u got someone to call u with second top pair in headsup?

whamm! Albania. Jul 07 2008 18:39. Posts 11625

sirlin was prolly some noob tho lol. j/k and see you playing midstakes in no time. gl.

Silver_nz New Zealand. Jul 07 2008 18:48. Posts 5647

damm you make some good points about competitive gaming your thoughts on the marginal advantage really helped my SC game, and I have been thinking something similar to this post for a while. I always used to play vs tough players and get very frustrated by losing. But I never learned how to win and how to manage the endgame. So, i've been playing vs a easiest possible opponents: US east players! when i feel confident i can win a good % of my games i'll head to D on iccup

Fox . Jul 07 2008 19:08. Posts 3110

PWNAGE!!

Highcard Canada. Jul 07 2008 19:56. Posts 5428

I think working up the stakes every once and while is good fun and not a waste of time, more people should do it when they get stuck at a level they can't seem to beat.

I have learned from poker that being at the table is not a grind, the grind is living and poker is how I pass the time