MMAth to the MAX.

All this data, that had to be organized somehow to put the end to this old-age argument. And what I came up was really quiet simple. I chose 4 criteria, and each of the fighters in question will get 8 through 1 points, with 8 being awarded to first, and 1 to last. Heres what i've got:



W% is Win percentage
QoOF is Quality of Opponents Faced- its judged using the O column of the first table.
ToOLt is Toughness of Opponents lost to- its judged using the AOL column of the first table.
TTO opponents is statistics against opponents that are currently placed in sherdog top 10 rankings.

I was just doing it for fun, but it shocked me how accurate those rankings turned out to be. Surely they are slanted somehow and surely Fedor isnt first, but lets make a few sane adjustments to the list, lets say we dont count Fedors loss to TK via illegal elbow. Fedor jumps into first with 26 points! Unfortunately i couldnt take that liberty as I was vigorously informed that

On October 28 2008 11:01 Zeller wrote: You said Fedor never lost, that was false, I corrected it

On October 28 2008 12:06 JudgeMathis wrote: Actually... Fedor does have a loss. :D Wiki is the best.

On October 28 2008 12:00 statix wrote: he technically does have a loss...we all know that he would ahve won the fight had it not been for the cut but yes, its still a loss.

Great Success! Point proven, and backed up by facts as much as any P4P discussion can possibly be. I was correct, if Silva were to retire right now, he would not be included in history books as Mayweather Jr, Ali, Sugar Ray or even Klitschko brothers. Silva is #2 on P4P list because he has credit, credit for his amazing performances, his dismantling of opponents. We just naturally expect his next opponent to be dismantled in exactly the same way. Truth is- nobody knows. Just remember the wins Soku raked - Silvaeque destructions of top tenners Arona and Little Nog, before his magic bubble was burst. Truth is, if he were to quit now, in a couple of years time people like Mousasi, Penn, Gomi, Machida, Filho, Alvarez and many others will have records under they belt that eclipse anything Anderson ever did.

And for that reason i hope that whole retirement talk and dicking around is just a way to get away from the UFC and continue onto the path of destruction which hopefully will eventually lead to the king himself. Fedor Emelianenko.

0 votes

this record bs doesnt judge who best p4p is. why are you giving machida top 10 wins over penn and franklin when they are 1 and 3 weight classes below him lol? machida is not in any top 10 p4p and prob not in most top 20s, although i could see him at the lower end of 20.

id say fedor, nog, couture, hendo, rampage, asilva, gsp, bj, sherk, faber, kid, torres are all clearly ahead of machida in the p4p category. can make arguments for guys like shogun, forrest, alves, diego, fitch, franklin, gomi, aoki. a few others have arguments as well and are roughly in the same area as machida



everyone knows top 4 of p4p is fedor, gsp, anderson and bj in no particular order. fedor is generally considered #1, anderson #2, and gsp/penn 3/4.

people improve/get worse over time. anderson early losses are meaningless, his loss vs okami was a dq and his loss vs chonan was well, a loss :D, but it was 4+ years ago. look at his last 10 fights. he has not really been threatened and has the potential to beatup multiple weight classes.

fedor is a 230 pound heavyweight destroying the hw division. enough said why hes p4p sick.

gsp crushes his own division and has beaten larger fighters like trigg very convincingly.

bj penn crushes his own division and the 3 times hes moved up were really really good bouts. lost a split decision to gsp, lost to hughes when he broke his rib and beat hughes.

On October 28 2008 03:58 Daut wrote: this record bs doesnt judge who best p4p is.

P4P is BS overall this is as close as you get to it being based on facts.

why are you giving machida top 10 wins over penn and franklin when they are 1 and 3 weight classes below him lol? machida is not in any top 10 p4p, not in any top 20 and maybe not even top 30.

I was just interested in what the numbers for Machida say, he has no business in this tbh I dont respect Anderson for fighting at MW much either, giving that hes actually a giant who is a cutting magician.

everyone knows top 4 of p4p is fedor, gsp, anderson and bj in no particular order. fedor is generally considered #1, anderson #2, and gsp/penn 3/4.

I really dont understand how GSP can possibly be below Anderson. His wins are better, his losses are better, his record is better.

people improve/get worse over time. anderson early losses are meaningless, his loss vs okami was a dq and his loss vs chonan was well, a loss :D, but it was 4+ years ago. look at his last 10 fights. he has not really been threatened and has the potential to beatup multiple weight classes.

This is my point. You dont say you proved everything you had to prove after beating up 3 p4p top 10s. Unless you had nothing to prove in the first place.

also as for victories over top 10s, fedor beat coleman when he was one of the best, arona when he was a heavyweight (although i think arona actually should have won this fight but lost the decision), heath herring when he was top 5 hw, randleman when he was top 10 for sure, and some others like sammy schilt who was a k1 legend. counting lindland who is 2 weight classes below is silly

and fedor does not cut weight, he could easily fight in the LHW division but he doesnt, to me it would be like if Silva fought with the likes of Rampage, Wandi etc

nah baal, the bone structures are so different. he would really lose his effectiveness by cutting, would gas way easily and would lose a ton of power cause his bones are just too big.

asilva might walk around 220 or so but theres no way he can fight at that weight cause hes too thin bodyshape

On October 28 2008 04:09 Daut wrote: also as for victories over top 10s, fedor beat coleman when he was one of the best, arona when he was a heavyweight (although i think arona actually should have won this fight but lost the decision), heath herring when he was top 5 hw, randleman when he was top 10 for sure, and some others like sammy schilt who was a k1 legend. counting lindland who is 2 weight classes below is silly

Lindland weighted in at 212 and Fedor weighted in at 235 so not that big of a difference. So as long as its done properly weight class wise i dont see a reason why it shouldnt count. Henderson has a win over Nog, same thing, Hendo is fairly large at MW, Nog is a tiny HW. Its not Machida vs Penn, which i tho also counted^^

Thats what i was trying to say only took like 6 edits.

As for first part of your post, you clearly didnt read the walls of text.

On October 28 2008 04:10 Daut wrote: nah baal, the bone structures are so different. he would really lose his effectiveness by cutting, would gas way easily and would lose a ton of power cause his bones are just too big. asilva might walk around 220 or so but theres no way he can fight at that weight cause hes too thin bodyshape

I give you that while MW is impossible for Fedor, LHW would pose no problems. He has a lot of fat he could dump, and he only weights 20-25 pounds above the limit.

ya he prob could but i dont think he'd be nearly as effective if he had to cut.

and the lindland thing its like, even if hes 212 pounds that doesnt mean hes a top 212 pound fighter. hes a top 185 fighter.

as for the gsp > anderson or anderson > gsp thing, i mean i really dont care how you rank 2nd, 3rd, 4th. im open to all of them. but i think fedor is clear 1

On October 28 2008 04:27 Daut wrote: ya he prob could but i dont think he'd be nearly as effective if he had to cut.

I cant see how losing a few pounds of fat can make him less effective at all.

and the lindland thing its like, even if hes 212 pounds that doesnt mean hes a top 212 pound fighter. hes a top 185 fighter.

Well its a valid point, and youre free to think what u please, these are just numbers.

On October 28 2008 04:31 SfydjkLm wrote: Show nested quote + On October 28 2008 04:27 Daut wrote: ya he prob could but i dont think he'd be nearly as effective if he had to cut. I cant see how losing a few pounds of fat can make him less effective at all.

well the way i see it he weighs like 235 right now. hed probably have to get his weight down to about 215 then cut to 205 the 2-3 days before. losing 20 pounds is kinda difficult for him hes just so thick muscle wise. i also think his sickness comes partially from the fact that he doesnt have to ever cut the water weight and is well hydrated. even if he lost effectiveness he is also fighting weaker fighters so yea he would still crush 205 obviously cause hes a hero but i dont think it would be the unreal sicko fedor you see now

either way he would be by far #1 205 if he cut. i was going off on a stupid tangent, yea he could make it and yea hed be #1 at 205. but he doesnt need to

On October 28 2008 04:36 Daut wrote: Show nested quote + On October 28 2008 04:31 SfydjkLm wrote:   On October 28 2008 04:27 Daut wrote: ya he prob could but i dont think he'd be nearly as effective if he had to cut. I cant see how losing a few pounds of fat can make him less effective at all. well the way i see it he weighs like 235 right now. hed probably have to get his weight down to about 215 then cut to 205 the 2-3 days before. losing 20 pounds is kinda difficult for him hes just so thick muscle wise. i also think his sickness comes partially from the fact that he doesnt have to ever cut the water weight and is well hydrated. even if he lost effectiveness he is also fighting weaker fighters so yea he would still crush 205 obviously cause hes a hero but i dont think it would be the unreal sicko fedor you see now either way he would be by far #1 205 if he cut. i was going off on a stupid tangent, yea he could make it and yea hed be #1 at 205. but he doesnt need to

Yes but hes also quiet chubby too so he has plenty of space to work from. Im sure hed be able to cut that had he have enough practice, if he were to cut right now i think itd cost him dearly first time. And ofc there are men like Hendo who i believe said he walks at 195? Who are so much sharper at 205 then 180.

I can see it taking away Fedor speed and agility edge, fighting in a lower weight class, however, who know, maybe if he cut all the fat he has hed be even faster.

but yea your method of going about it is ok, but you really really need to tweak some stuff.


for one, i wouldnt include beating fighters who moved up to your weight class from much lower as something noteworthy. so machida beating penn, fedor beating lindland i think are not the least bit worth mentioning.

however, fighters who have had some success in your class and could be considered good in your division are worth saying, as well as moving up to fight in larger divisions. this includes machida beating franklin, gsp beating bj and sherk, bj beating hughes, hendo beating nog, etc.


for two, i think you should mention the fighter's ranking at the time of the fight, not now. when fedor beat herring, herring was a top 5 hw and gave nog a real run for his money, and was thought to be the best possible person to eventually beat nog. this is very much worth mentioning.


for three, i think the record stuff should be more subjective. i dont think giving machida's 13-0 record the same amount of points as bj's tough resume is fair. you really need to just subjectively rank the people someone has fought and how they have done/should be expected to do.

theres some other stuff but its 645 am and im getting tired. its a cool thing you did but def need to tweak some stuff with it to make it more accurate with how people's subjective (but generally correct) views are

Well it always been my desire that someone would make an ELO based MMA fighter ranking similar to TLPD or GGnet SC rating databases, however this takes too much time and i just did it for fun and there will be no improvements

Unless Meat wants to lauch liquidmma.net and clone TLPDin there

Well my argument its not that if Fedor moved to HW and so did Silva Fedor would beat him, that is silly, its more pointed in the way that, Fedor cannot be compared to Silva because Fedor is a tiny and chubby HW destroying the weight class, while Silva's Body is probably the best in his entire weight class.

Also for anyone who still thinks Silva > Fedor, just watch his last fight, what a freaking embarassment, it shows the great difference in their mentality as an athlete, Silva not taking his fights seriously and jumping around like BruceLee giving a poor passive display and a really shitty fight that should have ended in the 1st round.

Fedor can EASILY, easily, make LHW. Without any problems at all. 185 would be a stretch but I don't even think that it is impossible for him to make that. Trying to make 185 he could fail or cut too much but 205 is a joke for him. He won't bother because anyone who wins at a higher division will stay there.

Anderson is not top P4P. I have him as #5. Fedor/Kid/Penn/GSP/Silva. I haven't seen a good argument for rating him above any of these been made. Three out of this list tear a new hole into divisions that they don't belong in. Penn can compete at 170, Fedor at HW is the best in the world even though he is the smallest guy in there, and Kid fights 2-3 weight classes above what he should be fighting at. GSP is comparable to Silva but his wins are better and his game is much more well-rounded.

How is GSP's game much more well rounded than Silvas?

Silva has zero tools that help him decide where the fight is played out.

I disagree, I think his BJJ is good enough to allow him to either Stall the action and stand, or sweep and get up.

I also think Machida will be top 10 p4p soon if they ever feel like giving him a title shot.

So many figthers have different body types and just because some could possibly make a weight doesn't meant they should.

Trigg
Lawler
Mayhem are all examples of guys who were at 170 but they are better suited for 185. Yes cutting is important to make your weight but size isn't everything and sometimes cutting too much is bad. Riggs cutting like 25 lbs of water to make 170 is a big example.

Thiago alves is like 5'9" and he's a powerhouse but BJ penn is 5'9" why can't thiago just make 155 and really crush everyone? I mean he's got all this muscle he should just reduce his mass right and he'll be godly? yeah i know it makes no sense to me but that's sometimes the logic people use.

wandy at 185 are you kidding me? Just cuz his height could possibly allow for such a thing doesn't mean he should. I mean freaking Lesnar is 6'3" he could probably make 205 by cutting muscle right? I mean Fedor is about 230 or so and he's 6' he's enormous for that height. I mean to give you another example. Rich is 6'1" and Forrest is 6'3" Rich is a 185 and Forrest is a 205. they are totally the same size types and are huge for their 185/205 divisions. 2" is about 20 lbs...

so you got gonzaga who's like 6'1" and 242 but people are like "omfg this guy is freakishly enormous!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" look at his pic on ufc.com.. he's 1" and 10lbs more then fedor and he is not like some ripped maniac over fedor.. yet no one is gonna say he can make 205 and yet fedor can easily make it all of a sudden?

listen i'm not gonna argue who can make weight and who can't but i will argue people think that fedor can easily make 205 and he's the same dominant fighter. It's just not so.

On October 28 2008 14:43 Suicide wrote: I disagree, I think his BJJ is good enough to allow him to either Stall the action and stand, or sweep and get up. I also think Machida will be top 10 p4p soon if they ever feel like giving him a title shot.

you disagree with what? his bjj is ok yes.

silva cannot take his opponent down, nor is his takedown defense very good. opposed to GSP who is the best wrestler in MMA, has good standup and a good groundgame.

and fedor making 205 yes i do think it would be easy. we talked about this before but I think that fedor only has to lose a FEW POUNDS before he can make the rest of the cut from water. there is no reason to assume that this somehow would be harder for him just because hes fedor and has a belly. the cut he would have to make is a lot easier than that of most 205 guys. all he needs to do is lose a few pounds and sit in the sauna. in todays mma game everyone has to cut as much as they can.

besides I think your examples of miller/trigg/lawler are pretty bad. miller fought 170 because that was the only opportunity the UFC offered him. this was not a choice and its not the right weight for him. he is 6'1 when guys like kos and thiago are 5'10. that's just a ridiculous cut.

trigg has had most success at 170. this is the division where he got title shots and fought hughesx2, gsp, hallman and verissimo. when trigg started to focus on commentating and teaching he fought more at 185.

lawler was 19 or so when he fought at 170 i think.

my examples are more that just because people can make a weight doesn't mean it's going to be a productive weight.

your examples are guys who were succesful at the lower weight class or guys who were enormous

fedor is in no way enormous for 205, most of the 205ers tower over fedor

On October 28 2008 04:09 Daut wrote: also as for victories over top 10s, fedor beat coleman when he was one of the best, arona when he was a heavyweight (although i think arona actually should have won this fight but lost the decision), heath herring when he was top 5 hw, randleman when he was top 10 for sure, and some others like sammy schilt who was a k1 legend. counting lindland who is 2 weight classes below is silly

coleman: 2 year layoff, just beat don the predator frye. way over the hill.
arona: unranked yes, close fight i agree the decision was razor thin so much controversy over this fight i wouldnt really call bragging rights on it
herring: good win, top 10
randleman: absofuckinglutely not a special win. you could argue randleman was top 10 because of his win over mirko, i guess if you look at it objectively that earns you a spot in the top 10 back then. but it was a fluke and randleman is not even close to a top 10 caliber fighter. never was never will be. he lost the 7 fights surrounding the mirko win. going 1-7 in 8 fights.
schilt: he wasnt a K1 legend at this point. he was a kickboxer in MMA with near zero K1 results. his championships came after this fight and after he left MMA. good win schilt was highly regarded at that point, probably top 10

On October 28 2008 16:09 Nazgul wrote: Show nested quote + On October 28 2008 14:43 Suicide wrote: I disagree, I think his BJJ is good enough to allow him to either Stall the action and stand, or sweep and get up. I also think Machida will be top 10 p4p soon if they ever feel like giving him a title shot. you disagree with what? his bjj is ok yes. silva cannot take his opponent down, nor is his takedown defense very good. opposed to GSP who is the best wrestler in MMA, has good standup and a good groundgame.

Silva can take his opponent down, but he doesn't have to cause he hasn't fought anyone that is better than him standing, thus getting the fight to the ground is not necessary. And i'm pretty sure his bjj is better than just ok, he even said that he trains with a gi cause there's so few that can compete with him no-gi

ya i mean youre right, wins over coleman and randleman were totally expected, was just listing them as top 10 fighters in their weight class so saying they are to be highly regarded is a lage overestatement. herring was a great win, as was schilt.

i guess randleman was kinda shitty though, his win over mirko was avenged by a sub, lol at getting subbed by mirko

Silva can take his opponent down, but he doesn't have to cause he hasn't fought anyone that is better than him standing, thus getting the fight to the ground is not necessary. And i'm pretty sure his bjj is better than just ok, he even said that he trains with a gi cause there's so few that can compete with him no-gi

no he cant what makes you say he can. every fight he has been in vs guys with a takedown he has ended on the bottom. thats fact not fiction. i cant think of a single fight where he took someone down with an effective takedown. it is pretty obvious his takedowns and tkdd are by far the weakest aspects of his game.

silva trains with nog btw, im sure nog would be happy to hear he cant hang with him without a gi. guys that are good or great on the ground have proven they are in either: adcc, bjj world championships, mma, etc. silva has not proven that hes world top at all. his credentials make him ok on the ground and he hasnt shown anything to think otherwise. this is by no means bad at all but lets not pretend his bjj makes him the second coming of jesus christ.

not just that but his bjj has not been transitioned nearly as well as many other fighters for mma. his top position game isnt nearly as strong as most people (wow he can get an RNC from someones back), and his bottom seems to only consist of elbows, triangles and body triangles. his sweeps, armbars, kimuras, and keeping good top position guys in full guard are not on the same level as top mma-bjj fighters.

his takedowns and takedown d are garbage. the reason anderson is considered one of the best is because he finishes almost every fight he has and has good enough ground to not lose the fight. however, i could definitely see someone taking him down a few times, winning 3 or 4 rounds from top position and taking a decision away from him moreso than gsp or bj or fedor losing in their own division. thats probably what naz is getting at the most. if hendo kept up what he was doing a few more rounds he could have won. if okami can keep gnp'ing anderson he can win, and im sure there are a few others who can do the same.

gsp is head and shoulders over everyone at 170 and seems much more invincible.

On October 28 2008 17:37 Nazgul wrote: [QUOTE] silva trains with nog btw, im sure nog would be happy to hear he cant hang with him without a gi. guys that are good or great on the ground have proven they are in either: adcc, bjj world championships, mma, etc. silva has not proven that hes world top at all. his credentials make him ok on the ground and he hasnt shown anything to think otherwise. this is by no means bad at all but lets not pretend his bjj makes him the second coming of jesus christ.

you may be right about the takedowns, but im not making this up, he said that there are like 5 guys that can compete with him no-gi, I assume that he's only talking about the guys from his gym, not around the world, and big-nog is most likely one of those five guys.

5 guys who can handle a bjj black in one team is a lot..

not every team has 20 bjj bbs

well i guess if fedor could make 205 easily he basically shuts down any idea that he isn't the p4p best fighter in the universe.

On October 28 2008 17:31 Daut wrote: ya i mean youre right, wins over coleman and randleman were totally expected, was just listing them as top 10 fighters in their weight class so saying they are to be highly regarded is a lage overestatement. herring was a great win, as was schilt. i guess randleman was kinda shitty though, his win over mirko was avenged by a sub, lol at getting subbed by mirko

well they were top 10 heavyweights at that time, its true that HW division was pretty shallow, but the point is that Fedor has been whooping top 10ers consistently no matter who was put in front of him. Take Anderson, who was losing to folks outside of top 10 rather unspectacular. Surely he has improved greatly, but the point is emphasize the contrast in the consistency, which in my opinion is one hella important fact when looking at any sort of ranking. Just look at Soku.