Top 10 mma guys ever.

So today on sherdog radio. TJ and Josh were talking about top 10. I called them and weighed in. At first they talked about top 5 ufc since zuffa and our list came down to something like.

randy
chuck
hughes
silva
and ? I said gsp but they were kinda half and half since he had a suspect loss to serra

I asked them about Kid but they didn't really weigh in on him. I want to give a shout out to naz/keanu they showed me the light about how godly Kid is.

Anyway here is my top 10 guys of all time. Understand we are talking about "of all time" not how they would fair today. so in no particular order.

bas rutten
royce gracie
frank shamrock
chuck lidell
randy couture
matt hughes
fedor emelianenko
big nog
wandy
sakuraba

the only one that i was semi unsure of was wandy because of his recent situation. but he was god in his prime and he's koed so many people.

guys who could take his place or are in top 20.

kid
spider
gsp
bj penn
henderson

any others you guys want to add?

if you got a problem with my list lets debate it :o

how is Takanori Gomi not on the top ten of all time?
Fireball Kid is EASILY top 10

take out liddell and add Gomi imo

He's seriously the baddest mofo ever to walk into a ring. Check out his HL video's it's sick.

who is kid??

On March 12 2008 14:55 Zadan wrote: who is kid??

Norifumi "Kid" Yamamoto

http://www.sherdog.com/fightfinder/fightfinder.asp?fighterid=1354

....having couture, liddell, bas or roycee in the top 10 "of all times" list is a terrible and bias start. Seriously any of those over Fedor, Nog, Rampage or A. Silva is just wrong.

Liddell made a career out of getting hand fed wrestlers with no striking ability because he was the poster boy.

Couture is 16-8, was literally forced out of the LHW devision. Has beaten what? 2 top 5 fighters in his whole career?

Royce was smart he got in at a time when most of the mma world didn't know about BJJ and was tapping people left and right. The second it became known that BJJ was a must for mma fighters he leaves the scene only to come back roided up for a huge payday getting his ass handed to him. Not sure if you can really count that as being the best, or just other people at a period of time being really bad.

Bas as much as I love him from his Pride commentating, is very highly overrated in mma, he made his name in pancrase which is not MMA.

Frank is one of those unknowns, he's very good, but he's never really been tested to see just how good he is. Pretty much banned himself from fighting the top guys in his devision with his personal issues with certain companies/people.

never seen gomi fight but it sounds like him vs Penn would be interesting.

And i take it you guys think kid would walk over Urijah Faber?

pancrase fighters might be the most underrated fighters in the history of mma
even more so than shooto fighters

My List

1. Fedor
2. Big Nog
3. Rickson Gracie ( how can you not put him in your list ?)
4. Randy
5. Wanderlei ( his time is over , but he for sure was one hell of a fighter in the past)
6. Chuck Liddell
7. Bas
8. Hughes
9. Gomi
10. CroCop ( yeha he looked bad in his last 2 fights >_< but he accomplished enough before to be worth his place in that list.

TOP FIGHTERs:

George St.Pierre
Anderson silva
Tall skinny guy from the show lol

i tried to make a list 2-3 times but it was almost impossible for me

so i decided that im only going to list fedor and minotauro as #1 and #2 respectively. after them a group of the following are my next top 15 (just going from heavyweight down the line):


bas, couture, crocop, liddell, hendo, wandy, rampage, anderson silva, sakuraba, gsp, matt hughes, bj penn, gomi, kid, faber.

i don't understand how mirko can be considered a top 10 greatest fighter
his biggest claim to fame is his owgp win in which 2 of the 4 fighters weren't even in his weight class (yoshida shouldn't be either, he's a pretty small even for 205) and he beat a total of 1 top 10 hw.
he's never been #1 in the world at hw, and he's never held the belt in pride.

igor has a much better case for top 10 than mirko

lol at top 10 of all time when mma is like 20 years old.

notsorry is right about bas and couture.

and daut faber is gonna get whooped on by pulver.

silva
fedor
gracie
sakuraba
couture
shamrock
rutten
penn

can only think of 8 deserving ppl hehe
the next two would be just fillers

royce/saku are far and away top 2 thats for sure

ok royce and saku were just "groundbreakers" or something. i actually think royce is just like a bjj version of tank abbot. who were entertaining and in a way fresh. saku was just like any pro wrestlers dream of making the switch to mma and translating very well at first.

not sorry are you insane.

i seriously can't even comment on your post because it shatters too many laws of mma physics.....

naz post = yes
daut post = yes
wham post = yes

fraser gomi lost to penn badly
gomi is great but he has bad losses to random guys and losses to other top fighters.

he should definately be in my top 20 and possibly top 10 instead of wandy.

oh and funaki is top 20 for sure.

oh yeah thx daut add faber in there.

On March 12 2008 19:34 whamm! wrote: ok royce and saku were just "groundbreakers" or something. i actually think royce is just like a bjj version of tank abbot. who were entertaining and in a way fresh. saku was just like any pro wrestlers dream of making the switch to mma and translating very well at first.

groundbreakers?

gsp and spider are groundbreakers by that logic being the few guys ever to be 100% complete mma fighters with athletic skill.

but i mean i get what you're saying. but still both are easily top 10. (saku/royce)

On March 12 2008 16:57 Daut wrote: i tried to make a list 2-3 times but it was almost impossible for me so i decided that im only going to list fedor and minotauro as #1 and #2 respectively. after them a group of the following are my next top 15 (just going from heavyweight down the line): bas, couture, crocop, liddell, hendo, wandy, rampage, anderson silva, sakuraba, gsp, matt hughes, bj penn, gomi, kid, faber.

oh wait i misread the list

still disagreed with no igor and yes mirko

wtf daut you have mirko in your top 10. i have to shun u now.

i think mirko is awesome i'm a huge mirko fan. but realize the guy mindjobs himself and loses fights he should win. yeah he's 3-0 with barnett which is godly and he was dominated nog at one point. fedor also called him his toughest opponent. but be that as it may he's still a mindjob that squanders his super talent. see vitor.

and come on
i hate couture but he's definitely top 10
first person to hold a championship in two different weight classes? obliterated tito and vitor both when they were in their primes and considered absolute monsters? had one of the best rivalry's in the ufc with liddell (which he lost but even still)

bas has less of a claim than couture imo but even still he was one of the best from pancrase (top 3 is prob rickson, frank shamrock, and bas...all three of those guys can be considered for top 10 best ever) and was ufc hw champion.

no mirko isnt in my top 10
he would be towards the bottom of that list, id put him and faber 14th and 15th

i just had a very hard time ranking 3-13

yeah sherdog guys were having major issues on radio making one upl

they said they would compile it this friday i suggest everyone tune in and call in to comment.

moved to general so it doesnt disappear!

the problem with making lists is that after nog and fedor, styles matter so much in each matchup. like how can you put randy ahead of chuck when chuck beat him twice, but how can you put chuck ahead of randy when randy won in multiple weight classes multiple times. and how can you put chuck very high when he will probably never beat rampage. just so hard to compile a list given info like that, but given my parameters, of the current fighters i would put bj penn or anderson silva next because i think they have the best ability to move around weight classes and best overall abilities. kid is close to that, so is randy, and besides those guys id consider putting bas near the top.

so my 3rd-7th would be a jumbling of kid, spider, bj penn, bas, and randy.

then id go with hughes cause he dominated 170 for so so long and fought/beat everyone.

then id have to go with gomi/sakuraba/wandy/liddell/rampage/gsp/hendo for 9th-15th

then mirko and faber at the bottom.


so i guess in order

1. fedor
2. nog
3-7 in no order: spider, penn, bas, randy, kid
8. hughes
9-15 gomi, sakuraba, wandy, liddell, rampage, gsp, hendo

then mirko, faber, gracie, and a couple other guys who i dont think belong in the top top class of guys


didnt include igor cause i think mirko is a better fighter capable of beating higher ranked opponents than igor ever was. also didnt include some of the 155 japanese guys besides gomi cause i dont know much about them. didnt include gracie cause of the roid garbage plus the fact that i agree with whoever said he was more of a novelty than a top top fighter.

yeah this is really hard to narrow down

royce
sakuraba
a silva
fedor
couture
liddell
wandy
minotauro
frank shamrock
bj penn
kid
hendo
coleman
gsp
hughes
bas
gomi

so many great fighters i dunno what to do

whos that crazy rusky that signed (or will sign) with UFC?

god i keep forgetting fighters
yeah this is really hard, narrowing it down by either skill or influence will cut off a lot of the names though

fuck it, im going to man up and do it by straight ability. i dont think theres another way to go about it. basically the measurement is who is the best in his weightclass with also having the best chance to move up and succeed.

1. fedor
2. nog
3. anderson silva
4. bj penn
5. kid
6. bas
7. randy
8. matt hughes
9. hendo
10. gsp (could argue for both higher based on natural ability and room for improvement and lower based on not yet being champion of his weight class and has yet to fight fitch but this is where he stays for me for now)
11. sakuraba
12. wandy
13. liddell
14. rampage
15. gomi (after that fight vs diaz and how bad he lost vs penn i had to put him this low)


fuck it i manned up ill stick by it even though ill want to change it later

straight ability based on todays standards or straight ability relative to the standards when they fought?

todays standards.

i like your lists keanu/daut a few comments.

and i'm just playing devils advocate on this just to mix it up.

bj penn is so talented but he's a lot like mirko. they destroy opponents badly. Mirko vs aleks/barnett/igor/coleman just complete obliteration and before he lost to nog he was tooling him.

but yet mirko gets beat by hunt/randleman/kongo (WTF) etc.
bj shreds hughes/gomi but loses to pulver... loses to gsp/hughes cuz he has horrible conditioning.

wandy never really much of anyone that was at his weight that was good except rampage. Once he did he had issues.

gomi shredded so many top LW but he mindjobs himself and apparently has issues against bjj guys.

But yeah all those guys should be in the tops.

well the thing with penn was, he avenged loss to pulver, he lost to bigger guys when he was poorly conditioned (machida had like 40 lbs on him), and is probably the best bjj practitioner in the world. so i think he has to stay very high on the list.

gomi is yeah, i dunno lol. i should probably put him higher. but he looked so so so bad in the diaz fight and in the aurelio fight. he looked ok vs penn i guess, but bj just looked so sosososo good in that fight.

wandy yeah i sort of agree he never dominated in a way that would make him top of the list, but he beat rampage twice, beat hendo, beat sakuraba, and lost to some really really good fighters so im ok with my positioning of him.

mirko is...well...you have have to throw out the kongo fight, broken rib affected him a lot. randleman and hunt no comment lol, but yeah, i put him in the same area as gomi. very very very good, occasionally has some mindfuck performance that leaves you saying HUH WHAT HAPPENED. same goes for a guy like shogun. just really really good fighters that are inconsistent at times.

On March 12 2008 20:35 Daut wrote: fuck it, im going to man up and do it by straight ability. i dont think theres another way to go about it. basically the measurement is who is the best in his weightclass with also having the best chance to move up and succeed. 1. fedor 2. nog 3. anderson silva 4. bj penn 5. kid 6. bas 7. randy 8. matt hughes 9. hendo 10. gsp (could argue for both higher based on natural ability and room for improvement and lower based on not yet being champion of his weight class and has yet to fight fitch but this is where he stays for me for now) 11. sakuraba 12. wandy 13. liddell 14. rampage 15. gomi (after that fight vs diaz and how bad he lost vs penn i had to put him this low) fuck it i manned up ill stick by it even though ill want to change it later

nog ahead of the spider on ability? dont get me wrong nogs a legend but a bit one dimensional. his abilities are basically amazing chin/heart and jitsu. aka he gets the hell beat out of him and usually catches a sub. id put penn & silva ahead of nog on pure ability.

ok then my turn!

1. kid
2. anderson silva
3. bj penn
4. fedor
5. gsp
6. big nog
7. saku
8. gomi
9. liddell
10. frank shamrock

first 6 were fairly easy. kid got his fame by being one of the best 155ers and one of the biggest misconceptions is that he's a natural 143er...he's not, he's a natural 132 or 123er. forget being competitive in the weight division one level higher than your own, he was competitive and great in a weight division 3 levels above of his own.

a silva, bj penn, and fedor are pretty much interchangable...they've all crushed some of the best in their division and have shown to not only be very well rounded but also that one aspect of their game is the best you will ever find in mma (silva is striking, fedor top position ground, bj penn all around sub/ground game).

gsp and big nog were the next teir. i think they're really close to the three above but something is holding them back. for nog it's the fact that he couldn't beat fedor...but even still he's easily the second best hw ever and has been both the pride and ufc hw champion. for gsp he has a loss to avenge to serra and has shown on a couple of occasions that he sometimes panics (first fight with hughes comes to mind), but his dominance prior to the serra fight was just unbelievable.

after that it was a little more difficult. saku was amazing and had he always fought at 185 or 170 he could have been in the top 3 but the prime of his career was cut short by the ineptitude of pride. gomi at times looks to be as good as anyone but recent losses to aurelio and diaz were bad, but biggest is his loss to penn where he was really dominated.. liddell has as many great wins as anyone but going 0-2 vs rampage is awful. frank shamrock was great too but he left in the prime of his career, his own attitude ruined his legacy.

well when i said that it was mainly im going to put fedor and nog 1/2 then rank people based on ability when its too close to call

i do agree with your point though, but one could argue that nog is the best big man bjj guy in the world bar none, and you cant really say anderson is in another league of striking from the k1 guys or top boxers

On March 12 2008 21:09 KeanuReaver wrote: ok then my turn! 1. kid 2. anderson silva 3. bj penn 4. fedor 5. gsp 6. big nog 7. saku 8. gomi 9. liddell 10. frank shamrock first 6 were fairly easy. kid got his fame by being one of the best 155ers and one of the biggest misconceptions is that he's a natural 143er...he's not, he's a natural 132 or 123er. forget being competitive in the weight division one level higher than your own, he was competitive and great in a weight division 3 levels above of his own. a silva, bj penn, and fedor are pretty much interchangable...they've all crushed some of the best in their division and have shown to not only be very well rounded but also that one aspect of their game is the best you will ever find in mma (silva is striking, fedor top position ground, bj penn all around sub/ground game). gsp and big nog were the next teir. i think they're really close to the three above but something is holding them back. for nog it's the fact that he couldn't beat fedor...but even still he's easily the second best hw ever and has been both the pride and ufc hw champion. for gsp he has a loss to avenge to serra and has shown on a couple of occasions that he sometimes panics (first fight with hughes comes to mind), but his dominance prior to the serra fight was just unbelievable. after that it was a little more difficult. saku was amazing and had he always fought at 185 or 170 he could have been in the top 3 but the prime of his career was cut short by the ineptitude of pride. gomi at times looks to be as good as anyone but recent losses to aurelio and diaz were bad, but biggest is his loss to penn where he was really dominated.. liddell has as many great wins as anyone but going 0-2 vs rampage is awful. frank shamrock was great too but he left in the prime of his career, his own attitude ruined his legacy.

hard to refute any of your reasoning in top 6, but i think putting fedor below 2nd is still a crime. i also think you are underestimating the KICK TO THE GROIN

had no idea that kid moved up that much. dl'ing his fight pack now

for mma standards big nogs bjj is the best among hw's (werdum is probably 2nd), i think what i love the most about big nog is just how mentally strong and tough he is. his fight against bob sapp was seriously the most glorious thing i've ever seen

as for kid, when he was going to go to the olympics for wrestling he would have been in the 123 pound division, he had some problems with yakuza and the guy that replaced him ended up winning the silver medal...that should give you some idea of just how good of a wrestler he is. the one thing that holds kid back is K-1 never really signed a lot of good competition for him so he fought a lot of cans but based strictly on ability (and the fact that i have a giant mancrush on him) i really think he's the best all around fighter mma has ever seen.

oh and for fedor i really feel that 2-4 are basically 2a 2b and 2c. the only reason i numbered them that way is because while silva and bj penn are eating up their divisions and adding to their legacy, fedor isn't doing anything :[. kinda goes against basing the list on ability but i needed something to seperate the three :D!

i love in the bob sapp fight how the first time he catches and goes for a triangle you can see him thinking "shit this guy is gonna slam me if i try this" and stops going for it. he then goes for it later and does get slammed lol

that had to be so intimidating fighting someone that big who is on top of you.

Eh you guys are underrating Gomi very much imo.
He's the best LW by far imo.

I really hope he comes to the UFC and proves my point ^_^
Another reason why I love him is he just loves to fight.

Everyone has a few losses don't count him out.
Look at his schedule as well. The time betweens his recent fights are pretty sick. Most of everyones top fighters have months upon months of rest + training between fights.

NC Nick Diaz No Decision - Overturned by NSAC 2/24/2007
Win Mitsuhiro Ishida TKO (Strikes) 12/31/2006
Win Marcus Aurelio Decision (Split) 11/5/2006
Win David Baron Submission (Rear Naked Choke) 8/26/2006

pretty sick scheduling imo. Look like he has been taking a break since PrideFC hit the fan. PLEASE COME TO THE UFC AND PWN THESE LIGHTWEIGHTS FIREBALL KID! ^_^

On March 12 2008 20:51 Daut wrote: well the thing with penn was, he avenged loss to pulver, he lost to bigger guys when he was poorly conditioned (machida had like 40 lbs on him), and is probably the best bjj practitioner in the world. so i think he has to stay very high on the list. gomi is yeah, i dunno lol. i should probably put him higher. but he looked so so so bad in the diaz fight and in the aurelio fight. he looked ok vs penn i guess, but bj just looked so sosososo good in that fight. wandy yeah i sort of agree he never dominated in a way that would make him top of the list, but he beat rampage twice, beat hendo, beat sakuraba, and lost to some really really good fighters so im ok with my positioning of him. mirko is...well...you have have to throw out the kongo fight, broken rib affected him a lot. randleman and hunt no comment lol, but yeah, i put him in the same area as gomi. very very very good, occasionally has some mindfuck performance that leaves you saying HUH WHAT HAPPENED. same goes for a guy like shogun. just really really good fighters that are inconsistent at times.

whoa whoa. bj best bjj practicioner in the world? hes not even the best in mma. Marcello Garcia and jacare are far more accomplished and better than bj. his overall game is way sicker though.

since its so early in mma i think top 10 all time is worthless so ill steal your idea about a talent list.

1. fedor
2. silva
3. bj
4. nog
5. gsp ( even though i think hes an overrated huge WW )
6. lidell
7. wandy
8. sakuraba
9. kid
10. matt hughes
.

i think decision dan henderson is way overrated. i mean i like the guy but most of his big wins were extremely close decisions and a lot of them i think he lost.

god yeah, a round and a half of bob sapp just mauling nog then suddenly nog sweeps him and gets an armbar to win it. i can't believe he had the strength to armbar someone as big and strong as sapp much less after the beating he took.

brb watching the gomi vs ishida fight!

i really like gomi and i think he's great but the way in which penn beat him and his recent loss to diaz were both pretty bad

On March 12 2008 21:32 KeanuReaver wrote: i really like gomi and i think he's great but the way in which penn beat him and his recent loss to diaz were both pretty bad

imo the penn fight was a great fight. would be an epic rematch imo if the UFC can hook it up.

i am watching gomi vs hansen now. this reminds me of those japanese bug fights baal posted. hansen crawling around the ring on his back upkicking gomi while gomi just kicks hansens feet

doesnt gomi do a cartwheel around him or some crazy shit? ha I should really re-watch his fights been a while now. All i know is that he is a tank who cannot be knocked out.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4714250829083384258

is the proof

On March 12 2008 21:47 Daut wrote: i am watching gomi vs hansen now. this reminds me of those japanese bug fights baal posted. hansen crawling around the ring on his back upkicking gomi while gomi just kicks hansens feet

Belfort would be the giant Wasp

um and jacare and marcelo are better bjj but for mma bjj penn is far ahead of them.

i think mma bjj includes the ability to strike from dominant positions and bj has it.

bj has the best back control of any fighter in the world in mma better then jacare and marcelo cuz of his hands.

don't get me wrong gomi is a god. he's awesome. but he's had some horrible losses cuz he's an idiot and against someone like sherk i would put my money on sherk cuz i have no clue who's gonna show up the god gomi or the useless gomi. while i know sherk is gonna train at 15k ft with weights on his body while he runs up stairs.

oh and big nog has incredible hands for a HW. He was boxing fine with sylvia in the 2nd round and his hands are hugely underrated.

Daut watch Hansen vs Azeredo it's one of my favs.

Hansen vs Sakurai is also good.

If Mach had beaten Gomi in the gp finals i'd have mach in my top 10 probably.

1. Cabbage
2. BJ Penn

top 5 all time

1.Fedor
2.Spider
3.Randy
4.Bas
5.Hoyce

Kimbo Slice alternate for one of these guys;P

On March 13 2008 12:42 derdodadae wrote: top 5 all time 1.Fedor 2.Spider 3.Randy 4.Bas 5.Hoyce Kimbo Slice alternate for one of these guys;P

you cannot have randy higher then big nog imo!

On March 12 2008 21:29 Stim_Abuser wrote: 5. gsp ( even though i think hes an overrated huge WW )

hes huge for a WW or hes hugely overrated?

On March 13 2008 13:26 Fox wrote: Show nested quote + On March 13 2008 12:42 derdodadae wrote: top 5 all time 1.Fedor 2.Spider 3.Randy 4.Bas 5.Hoyce Kimbo Slice alternate for one of these guys;P you cannot have randy higher then big nog imo!

Didnt Dana White offer Randy the chance to fight Nog and he turned it down saying a Fedor fight was the only one that made sense?

correct fraser. randy is old and he has only 1 big fight in him is what i believe. but yeah pretty much correct.

stim abuser calling gsp an overrated huge ww is like calling cts overrated loose high stakes player.

=|

Nog is a great fighter but he had poor outings against Silvia and the crazy horse. I think Randy has grown into a monster with experience, Ground & Pound/Dirty Boxing +EV against Nog imo.

then again who am i

considering nog has never been knocked out or submit and has avenged every loss except fedor i dont see how you can possibly put randy ahead of him. i hate to go by records but he lost 8 fucking times, was stopped, knocked out, and would not be a favorite to beat nog head to head.

i just dl'ed the kid pack and given what keanu said about him i might move him ahead of fedor to #1, but i think its pretty much consensus that the top 5 ever is fedor, kid, spider, bj penn and big nog. arguments can be made for other people like gsp who will end up in there at some point and for some other guys who could have been there, but this seems like the constant top 5 for sure.

On March 13 2008 13:29 Fraser wrote: Show nested quote + On March 12 2008 21:29 Stim_Abuser wrote: 5. gsp ( even though i think hes an overrated huge WW ) hes huge for a WW or hes hugely overrated?

both. bigger than everyone he fights. i basically dont like him because he just uses his strength to get people down. hes not much of a finisher ( yea i know he finished hughes but hughes cant do shit standing up or from his back ) and his is a mentally weak fighter. i hate that.

ill admit gsp is a great fighter and i just dont like him

as for kid being ahead of fedor.... wtf? hes fighting in a weak division and might not even be the best in his division. if he gets past faber & pulver then we will talk about him as top 3. till then no fucking way.

honestly only reason i rank kid above faber is because he has a little better competition on his record but faber just recently finished someone that kid had to take to decision in curran.

Randy is a suffocating fighter, he makes people look bad. Nog's bashing abilities are average at best and recently Randy's stand up been pretty impressive. Now comes down to ground game: Randy's greco roman style plays well against bjj, therefore the naturals aggression will win over the judges.

i quote nazgul on this because he said this to me a couple weeks ago


me: how much better do you think kid is than faber? is it like comparing fedor to randy?
naz: no, its like comparing fedor to http://www.sherdog.com/fightfinder/fightfinder.asp?FighterID=4624

I don't know why Nogueria gets the respect that he does to be honest. I have always been left unimpressed with his fights. I just don't see the talent that some of the other greats have. He is just a pretty tough dude with good BJJ. Don't get me wrong is is definatly in the top 10 100%, but I seriously could not justify putting him higher than 5+. It's really tough to come up with a top 10 list of guys in the MMA dude to criteria really. Some were so fucking dominant in their time, but in today's standards would be really tough to judge who the all time greats really are. Although 1 thing I am certian we can all agree on is Fedor just being a total monster.

My top 10:
1. Fedor Emelianenko
2. Anderson Silva
3. Mirko Cro-Cop
4. BJ Penn
5. Randy Couture
6. GSP
7. Matt Hughes
8. Nogueria
9. Chuck Liddell
10. Dan Henderson

On March 13 2008 14:48 Daut wrote: i quote nazgul on this because he said this to me a couple weeks ago me: how much better do you think kid is than faber? is it like comparing fedor to randy? naz: no, its like comparing fedor to http://www.sherdog.com/fightfinder/fightfinder.asp?FighterID=4624

you two are silly. they are both just can crushers at this point. if faber beats pulver ( which im actually rooting for pulver in ) i think i put him above kid easily.

i think pulver is the #1 145 fighter. do you actually think kid could EVER take penn to a 5 round decision win? pulver hung with elite 155 pounders.

pulver > kid all day every day,

On March 12 2008 21:56 Svenman87 wrote: doesnt gomi do a cartwheel around him or some crazy shit? ha I should really re-watch his fights been a while now. All i know is that he is a tank who cannot be knocked out. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4714250829083384258 is the proof

hahaha I love that video. Notice how he picks up the ref's fucking pen LOL.

On March 13 2008 14:52 Stim_Abuser wrote: Show nested quote + On March 13 2008 14:48 Daut wrote: i quote nazgul on this because he said this to me a couple weeks ago me: how much better do you think kid is than faber? is it like comparing fedor to randy? naz: no, its like comparing fedor to http://www.sherdog.com/fightfinder/fightfinder.asp?FighterID=4624 you two are silly. they are both just can crushers at this point. if faber beats pulver ( which im actually rooting for pulver in ) i think i put him above kid easily. i think pulver is the #1 145 fighter. do you actually think kid could EVER take penn to a 5 round decision win? pulver hung with elite 155 pounders. pulver > kid all day every day,

i think faber will beat pulver at this stage. pulver in his prime, eh i dunno.
and what youre ignoring is that kid is actually a 123 lb fighter who moved up to 145 and is crushing at 145. so if he were to fight penn, it would be analogous to penn trying to fight anderson silva.

agree w/ you on the records, but I still think Randy's a way sicker fighter even a the age of 44, how good would he be if he started early in life...no one can tell if guess?

On March 13 2008 15:00 Daut wrote: Show nested quote + On March 13 2008 14:52 Stim_Abuser wrote:   On March 13 2008 14:48 Daut wrote: i quote nazgul on this because he said this to me a couple weeks ago me: how much better do you think kid is than faber? is it like comparing fedor to randy? naz: no, its like comparing fedor to http://www.sherdog.com/fightfinder/fightfinder.asp?FighterID=4624 you two are silly. they are both just can crushers at this point. if faber beats pulver ( which im actually rooting for pulver in ) i think i put him above kid easily. i think pulver is the #1 145 fighter. do you actually think kid could EVER take penn to a 5 round decision win? pulver hung with elite 155 pounders. pulver > kid all day every day, i think faber will beat pulver at this stage. pulver in his prime, eh i dunno. and what youre ignoring is that kid is actually a 123 lb fighter who moved up to 145 and is crushing at 145. so if he were to fight penn, it would be analogous to penn trying to fight anderson silva.

crushing cans* did kid ever fight mma at 123?

wrestling weight is a LOT different than fighting weight. wreslters cut a TON of weight. cutting that much weight in mma is effects your game much more than wrestling.

also what makes you think pulver is washed up? his only losses are to very legit 155 pounders. his stand up is the best at 145. his take down defense is so great he was able stop take downs from much bigger wrestlers at 155.

i think pulver > faber and kid.

when you guys are talking about "kid" I can only assume it's kid yamamoto? the killer bee or w/e?

yes and was knocked out by a smaller 145 fighter before he was on TUF.
pulvers a tough guy and all but seriously hes lost basically every other fight his last 20. yeah some of them are tough fighters and all, but who has he beaten that isnt a can since he beat penn?

On March 13 2008 13:48 derdodadae wrote: Nog is a great fighter but he had poor outings against Silvia and the crazy horse. I think Randy has grown into a monster with experience, Ground & Pound/Dirty Boxing +EV against Nog imo. then again who am i

nah i can't disagree that randy is a monster. he's probably my fav hw ever.

but i mean i have to look and see that nog went years without ever losing and even against top competition he's done well and is just incredible.

you guys are nuts who think faber > kid.

if you guys don't know kid has fought in k1 max competitions. yes that's right he's done straight kickboxing against the TOP WORLD LEVEL k1 hand guys and he's done well.

that's like saying if anderson silva went against manhoef in k1 and i'm pretty sure manhoef would tear him apart.

or like saying if big nog struck with schilt/hoost/sefo/hunt he'd get dominated.

kid is unreal and he's also a jap who's motivated by madness. he comes super conditioned every fight and is just not from this earth.

but because the fact that we haven't seen him against the worlds top 155 guys we can't put him #1 as greatest.

if he'd fought gomi,bj, hansen, aoki, any of the shooto/bushido guys then maybe. Beyond genki and uno (who he both finished) not really anyone top.

yo what happened in the kid vs katsuta fight where the ref tried to stop it but kid wouldnt stop punching and then started going nuts at one of the people in the crowd. any punishment/reason for that?

On March 13 2008 16:23 Daut wrote: yes and was knocked out by a smaller 145 fighter before he was on TUF. pulvers a tough guy and all but seriously hes lost basically every other fight his last 20. yeah some of them are tough fighters and all, but who has he beaten that isnt a can since he beat penn?

what 145 pounder? you mean joe lauzon? hes a 155 pounder and a legit threat in the 155 division and will be facing kenny floarian on the next ultimate fight night.

http://www.sherdog.com/fightfinder/fightfinder.asp?FighterID=228

pulvers record. hes undefeated at 145 and has some wins over tough guys at 155. yea he lost 8 fights. every one of those guys he lost to would destroy kid and some of the guys he beat would aswell.

pulver is undefeated at 145

thats pretty subjective dont you think?

kids standup is arguably better and his wrestling is world class. his ground and pound at that level is for sure the best. hes extremely flexible, quick and strong. ironic enough the only clear advantage pulver has is a reach advantage, and combined with similar standup skills would lead to what i think is probably a pretty good fight with kid having an edge just cause hes a better overall fighter, but pulver would have a good shot.

LOL

funny to talk about that stuff but i honestly disagree heavily with some points.

Rickson Gracie not even mentioned in Top10 all-time
This is a joke right ?

Rickson Gracie was at his prime the #1 BJJ guy in the world by faaaaaaaaaaaaaar

How can u put Royce Gracie up in that list instead of Rickson ?
Rickson at his prime was far better than Royce at absolutely any aspect of the MMA game.

( like the original music better .. but didnt find the original sherdog movie and i am too lazy to load it up)

physically stronger , technically better and with the absolut willpower to destory each and every opponent.


I am not saying Rickson is Nr.1
I guess we all agree this clearly is Fedor

But Rickson was definitely the best BJJ guy at his time and the first fighter who dominated MMA

@ Daut
BJ TOP 1 BJJ guy ?
No offence , but this is just lol

Marcello Garcia , Jacare , Roger Gracie , Demian Maia, Xandre Ribeiro to name a few who are better BJJ fighters than BJ for sure.

And i also dont agree with youre absolut skill ranking based on todays standarts.

TOP 3 is not that bad of a choice even though id go like

1. Fedor
2. A. Silva
3. Big Nog

But then how can u put Matt Hughes > GSP when u judge teh absolut fighting skill having todays standarts as meassure
GSP is stronger , better striker and better wrestler than Hughes ....

I also dont like Bas > Rampage
I think Rampage now would kill Bas in his Prime.

Nice that sakuraba is on that list when u judge straight by ability ?
I mean Sakuraba is a hero and erverybody loves him .. but he has never been close to todays MMA fighters skills.

Do u train MMA yourself ?
Or are u too busy being a poker hero

i think people understood what i meant by straight ability.

i meant when it was too close to call i went by straight ability.

i ranked fedor and nog #1,2 even though ability wise its possible people are higher than nog.

then when it was too close to call between 3-7 i ranked them there based on what i thought of their abilities.
then i put hughes 8th based on his accomplishments, obviously he isnt more skilled than gsp but right now his accomplishments put him in front of gsp.

so basically whenever i couldnt decide who belonged before who in a certain ranking group i went by ability.

as for penn being #1 bjj, that includes bjj that has punching incorporated, not just straight jiu jitsu. i think bj is the best at being on the top and pounding/avoiding subs while also moving towards a mount, which then moves towards a rear naked choke.

and no im not training myself, but nazgul mig and i are going to start this summer. really excited to do so.

[B] Do u train MMA yourself ? Or are u too busy being a poker hero

i train mma yes.

but that doesn't mean i'll know more then anyone else. Josh Gross is yoda of mma and i could probably whup his ass in an mma match.

in any case rickson cannot be top ten because he refuses to fight anyone good.

while everyone on that top 10 list do everything they can to fight top opponents.

basically 90% of randy's opponents would tool rickson horribly.

On March 13 2008 18:33 Daut wrote: as for penn being #1 bjj, that includes bjj that has punching incorporated, not just straight jiu jitsu. i think bj is the best at being on the top and pounding/avoiding subs while also moving towards a mount, which then moves towards a rear naked choke. and no im not training myself, but nazgul mig and i are going to start this summer. really excited to do so.

i'm very excited for you guys. I'm looking to fight soon and keanu hopefully will be back in it soon.

i just wish i was a poker god cuz i would honestly quit my job and do this full time + open a gym.

i took 3 years of bjj and got my purple belt but health problems stopped me, i have another knee operation coming up but after that im really going to jump back into it as much as i can since it's so much fun

as for kid i think people seriously underestimate just how impressive him fighting at 155 is. like daut said, this is like bj penn moving up to 185 and taking on a. silva...i mean couture's fame comes from the fact that as a lw champion he was able to move up to hw and be champion and that was not only just one class higher, it's also the easiest jump. it's not that he doesn't want to cut either, he goes into 155 pound fights weighing 140 soaking wet and annihilates royler gracie, genki sudo, and caol uno? all legit top 20 155ers with sudo being arguably top 10 at the time. combine that with some of the best hands at 155 (p4p the heaviest, and it's not close) as well as arguably the best wrestling pedigree in the history of mma (between lindland and kid imo). he's very similar to fedor, with fedor having the better sub game and kid having the better wrestling / shoots. it's too bad he's fought most of his career in K-1, i really would have loved to see him in the lwgp.

as for what happened between kid and katsuta, katsuta was talking a lot of shit about kids sister before the fight i believe. me and fox were talking about it one day and were laughing at how stupid you have to be to piss off kid.

and yeah i don't really mind if i never fight an mma fight but i'd love to compete in adcc, the pan ams, the mundials, or any other huge bjj tourney. if i could have my own way, in 10 years i'd either have my own bjj gym or be teaching at the renzo gracie academy in NY (while kyra gracie swoons for me of course)

and actually i agree with daut on the top 5 so on my list im gonna switch big nog and gsp
i think the one thing you can say thats in common for everyone in the top 5 is they are all among the most mentally tough fighters in mma, just very pure like they were born to do this one thing...you can't really say that about gsp yet so he's #6.

I couldn't make a solid top 10 list because MMA has a lot more upsets than most other sports, and only in my mind 2 people have been unphased by that. I also added Anderson Silva to the list because he is in such a dominating position of his weight class at this moment.

My Top 3

Fedor Emelianenko (233lbs)
27-1
Only Loss Due to a Cut (Avenged)

Norifumi "Kid" Yamamoto (143lbs)
17-1
Only Loss Due to a Cut

Anderson Silva (185lbs)
21-4

Other Thoughts:

Nog - Definitely a top 5 fighter. Would be the best in the world if Fedor wasn't alive. It's amazing how he always finds a way to turn some small hope into a reality.

Royce - It's hard to grasp how much of a contribution he made to the sport, and then watch him get dismantled by Matt Hughes so soundly. The argument for putting him in the top 5 is there.

Sakuraba - The Gracie Hunter, destroyed them when they were the kings of MMA. I think Sakuraba deserves all the love he gets.

Hughes - Had an amazing streak going, but got thoroughly embarrassed by GSP twice =\

Bas Rutten, Ken Shamrock, Oleg Taktarov, Tank Abbot, Igor Vovchachyn(To lazy to look this up) - Past is the Past, but they all helped a lot.

Frank Shamrock - The Current Middle Weight Champ for EliteXC I believe. Already a legend.

Liddell - I think he could have had a better legacy if the UFC didn't feed him people so he could knock them out and sell more tickets.

BJ Penn - Guh. BJ Penn bothers me. He gets so much love from people because of what he could be rather than what he has been in the past. BJ Penn losses a lot of fights he probably could have won and has great skills. I'll concede that. But until he does something impressive like beat Sherk, and win 2 fights after that, I still think he's a nobody. He's like Carlos Newton.

Randy - The guy you love to love, but I don't think it's that impressive of a record he holds.

Gomi - Needs to stop losing to people like Nick Diaz

crocop - See Above

rickson - 400-0? Yeah, Right. If he ever decides to fight someone for real we'll see that he's good, but not top 10 material.

GSP - Probably the best fighter in the UFC If he gets over his fluke loss to Serra and goes back to his old self of stand up. His wrestling and stand up are both amazing. Not quite Kid Amazing, but not that far off.

Mark Kerr & Mark Coleman - Imagine the damage these two could have done if they didn't have huge personal problems?

Urijah Faber - I Don't know enough about him to really say =[

Sherk - Steroids. Hope Penn beats him bad.


And just becuase you guys might enjoy it heres a link to 40 of the Greatest SHOOTO Fights with some guys you may not be to familiar with

http://subfighter.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=58022

[edit] oh and just for kicks I think Enson Inoue should be honorary #10. There are so many cool stories about him like when he flied a member of Sherdog out to train with him for two weeks, for making him a highlight video. How he got Kid to start training MMA, Other cool Yakuza stories with sakuraba. Yamato Damashii. Dude is amazing

re bj penn:

wins over caol uno, din thomas, matt serra, takanori gomi, matt hughes, bang ludwig, renzo gracie, rodrigo gracie, jens pulver, and joe stevenson
that's a really good list of fighters to have beaten. there's four ufc/pride champions/ex-champions in that list.

analyze his losses
loss to matt hughes: very close fight in which bj penn seperates a rib and gasses out leading to the loss, was beating hughes prior to the third. going 1-1 with the greatest 170 pounder in ufc history when you're a natural 155er isn't too shabby
loss to gsp: split decision loss which could have gone either way. gsp has made the very best 170ers look silly yet bj took him the distance and just about won.
loss to machida: 155er fighting a legit top 5 205er, dunno what else to say.
loss to jens pulver: the one really ugly loss, but that was a while ago and bj did avenge it.

his resume is pretty good :[

On March 13 2008 22:15 KeanuReaver wrote: re bj penn: his resume is pretty good :[

You make good points, his fights are pretty much a whose who list of guys. I guess its more of a personal thing with me. I put my heart and soul into training, leave everything on the mat, and it kind of urks me that some of the losses he had, should have been won if he wasn't simply riding his natural talent. Also his losses are spread out to the point where I don't think he has ever established himself to be the top in his division while people give him credit for being the best. That being said, he might go on to do just that soon =|

http://mmafightline.com/news/2008/313/fedor_emelianenko_318666.shtml

Sources close to negotiations between the UFC and Fedor's management have informed MMAFightline.com that the two sides are currently discussing a possible one fight deal that would bring Fedor to the cage, presumably to face Randy Couture. It is unknown whether Couture would end his lawsuit and come back to the UFC to face Fedor if the UFC were able to offer such a fight, but Couture has stated on numerous occasions that this is the only fight that makes sense at this stage of his career. It should be noted that nothing is eminent at this point and negotiations are in the general discussion phase. If made, however, the deal would be unprecedented. The UFC is notorious for locking up fighters in long term deals and not allowing them to leave as champions. We'll have more on this story as it develops.

ONE TIME

oh shit
ONE TIME DANA

@ Daut

Nice
Mig and You will start training MMA
I hope you both stay motivated and have hell of fun. It may be a bit hard in the beginning when u havent done any full contact sports before since u must get used to pain a bit... but once youre past that stage you will fall in love with the sport for sure !

when u guys are ready some time we must make a Liquidpoker fight night ^^
that would be the coolest thing on earth.


@ Rickson topic.
Come one guys

He should fight someone real ?
He is 50 years old T_T

His prime was in like 1984-1995
When he won Pride1 in 1997 he was allready ~ 40 years old and past his prime >-<

So you wanted him to fight the upcomming young guns like Vitor Belfort , Wanderlei Silva, JeremyHorn etc. who where all ~ 20-22 years old at that time when Rickson was 40years and past his prime.

Rickson has never refused anyone when he was young.
of his mystical 400-0 record at least 185 fights vs all kinds of different challengers are dokumented. ( ive seen a list somewhere cant remember)
he started to refuse fights after he was past 40 years which imo is only kinda logical. ( why should he destory his legacy on purpouse ? )

That is just not fair imo.

pretty sure rickson actively dodged bas and possibly even frank.

and fedor vs randy makes my head explode.

On March 13 2008 22:15 KeanuReaver wrote: re bj penn: wins over caol uno, din thomas, matt serra, takanori gomi, matt hughes, bang ludwig, renzo gracie, rodrigo gracie, jens pulver, and joe stevenson that's a really good list of fighters to have beaten. there's four ufc/pride champions/ex-champions in that list. analyze his losses loss to matt hughes: very close fight in which bj penn seperates a rib and gasses out leading to the loss, was beating hughes prior to the third. going 1-1 with the greatest 170 pounder in ufc history when you're a natural 155er isn't too shabby loss to gsp: split decision loss which could have gone either way. gsp has made the very best 170ers look silly yet bj took him the distance and just about won. loss to machida: 155er fighting a legit top 5 205er, dunno what else to say. loss to jens pulver: the one really ugly loss, but that was a while ago and bj did avenge it. his resume is pretty good :[

don't forget the way he's finished some of those guys.

On March 13 2008 14:51 NiagaraPoker wrote: I don't know why Nogueria gets the respect that he does to be honest. I have always been left unimpressed with his fights. I just don't see the talent that some of the other greats have. He is just a pretty tough dude with good BJJ. Don't get me wrong is is definatly in the top 10 100%, but I seriously could not justify putting him higher than 5+. It's really tough to come up with a top 10 list of guys in the MMA dude to criteria really. Some were so fucking dominant in their time, but in today's standards would be really tough to judge who the all time greats really are. Although 1 thing I am certian we can all agree on is Fedor just being a total monster. My top 10: 1. Fedor Emelianenko 2. Anderson Silva 3. Mirko Cro-Cop 4. BJ Penn 5. Randy Couture 6. GSP 7. Matt Hughes 8. Nogueria 9. Chuck Liddell 10. Dan Henderson

QFT,anyways you guys are placing crocop low because of his unexpected losses,all im gonna say...

Gonzaga match was rigged,its pretty well known in croatia that it was rigged and some of the other matches Mirko lost to an underdog were because of his personal issues at life at that time...

And for anyone who places sakuraba above mirko in his list is a total fucking tool,check out their fights.

On March 14 2008 05:14 PplusAD wrote: @ Daut Nice Mig and You will start training MMA I hope you both stay motivated and have hell of fun. It may be a bit hard in the beginning when u havent done any full contact sports before since u must get used to pain a bit... but once youre past that stage you will fall in love with the sport for sure ! when u guys are ready some time we must make a Liquidpoker fight night ^^ that would be the coolest thing on earth. @ Rickson topic. Come one guys He should fight someone real ? He is 50 years old T_T His prime was in like 1984-1995 When he won Pride1 in 1997 he was allready ~ 40 years old and past his prime >-< So you wanted him to fight the upcomming young guns like Vitor Belfort , Wanderlei Silva, JeremyHorn etc. who where all ~ 20-22 years old at that time when Rickson was 40years and past his prime. Rickson has never refused anyone when he was young. of his mystical 400-0 record at least 185 fights vs all kinds of different challengers are dokumented. ( ive seen a list somewhere cant remember) he started to refuse fights after he was past 40 years which imo is only kinda logical. ( why should he destory his legacy on purpouse ? ) That is just not fair imo.

KEK,do I classify as a MMA fighter cuz of the fact I trained Karate ,taekwondo and Jet Kune Do?

GAG

On March 14 2008 07:18 Cro)Deadman wrote: Show nested quote + On March 13 2008 14:51 NiagaraPoker wrote: I don't know why Nogueria gets the respect that he does to be honest. I have always been left unimpressed with his fights. I just don't see the talent that some of the other greats have. He is just a pretty tough dude with good BJJ. Don't get me wrong is is definatly in the top 10 100%, but I seriously could not justify putting him higher than 5+. It's really tough to come up with a top 10 list of guys in the MMA dude to criteria really. Some were so fucking dominant in their time, but in today's standards would be really tough to judge who the all time greats really are. Although 1 thing I am certian we can all agree on is Fedor just being a total monster. My top 10: 1. Fedor Emelianenko 2. Anderson Silva 3. Mirko Cro-Cop 4. BJ Penn 5. Randy Couture 6. GSP 7. Matt Hughes 8. Nogueria 9. Chuck Liddell 10. Dan Henderson QFT,anyways you guys are placing crocop low because of his unexpected losses,all im gonna say... Gonzaga match was rigged,its pretty well known in croatia that it was rigged and some of the other matches Mirko lost to an underdog were because of his personal issues at life at that time... And for anyone who places sakuraba above mirko in his list is a total fucking tool,check out their fights.

pretty sure anyone who knows mma puts sakuraba above mirko easily.

sakuraba has beaten former ufc HW champs former ufc WW champs. He's beaten and fought so many guys. He's a legend and a god he's EASILY ahead of mirko. EASILY.

lol @ a rigged match finished by a brutal ko and tearing apart his ankle youre just a complete idiot I can't make anything else out of this

in terms of top 10 ever you dont look at current skill level but you look at what they were in their primes compared to their peers, achievements, and what they have meant for MMA. mirko has done absolutely nothing to revolutionize MMA, never held a belt never was considered the best, basically hes nowhere near a candidate for such a top 10.

Well Crocop was considered TOP3 world before he moved to UFC ?
His left high kicks were the deadliest in the MMA world by then.

I dont know whats up with all the TOP pride guys losing their first UFC matches ....
I recently watched Shogun vs Griffin again ...
Its so lol how Shogun gasses at the middle of round 2 ... >_<
He basically destroyed everyone in Pride where the first round is 10 minutes without break

but in UFC he gets so tired that he can hardly stand on his own feet anymore after only 5 minutes having a break ???
I found that very strange to be honest

@ deadman

well you arent an MMA fighter

But ofc you would be allowed to fight at our Liquidpoker Fight Event if that is ever gonna happen.

As i think mig is in my weight class ?
Id like to fight him for rolls in MMA after he trained some

i dont know if you guys know arbianight but he used to fight mma, actually fought in shooto. he went up against faber and lost in a majority decision!!!

http://www.sherdog.com/fightfinder/fightfinder.asp?FighterID=4873


what a hero

woah

also about mirko.

his skillset is unlike anyone in the world.

If he is on he can ko anyone and badly. No one in mma does what he does. He body kicks, high kicks, low kicks people into submission. I mean that body kick he put on Magomedov is bonkers.

Unfortunately he has the mental toughness and the will of a microstakes player.

On March 13 2008 22:15 KeanuReaver wrote: loss to gsp: split decision loss which could have gone either way. gsp has made the very best 170ers look silly yet bj took him the distance and just about won.

BJ's standup really impressed me in this loss... I expected GSP to have a clear edge in standup, and want to keep it on the feet to stay away from BJ's BJJ, but it was just the opposite! BJ had the edge in striking, and ive never seen anyone beat GSP in standup (except matt serra LOL).

I guess GSP did win the fight because he controlled the last 2 rounds, so you've gotta score them his way. BJ couldnt stop his takedowns... but he didnt cause any damage to BJ whatsoever, and took a far amount in the first round. I'd love to see a rematch here.

Anyone seen GSP's chin get tested much? only people i've seen hit him were BJ and Serra. Hughes, Sherk and Kos couldnt touch him. I'm not sure if the Serra fight is really a good indication either, since the punch that decided that fight was kind of a fluke in that it hit the back of his head (why try to duck under a matt serra punch?)

On March 14 2008 08:44 Nazgul wrote: lol @ a rigged match finished by a brutal ko and tearing apart his ankle youre just a complete idiot I can't make anything else out of this

Also off topic a bit.. how about Sherk for best chin in MMA? he got tested bigtime in that hermes fight, took 3(!!) huge knees to the head on 3 seperate shots and just fought right through all of them (last one phased him a bit, but i think anyone else wouldve been KOed)

On March 14 2008 11:27 Fraser wrote: Also off topic a bit.. how about Sherk for best chin in MMA? he got tested bigtime in that hermes fight, took 3(!!) huge knees to the head on 3 seperate shots and just fought right through all of them (last one phased him a bit, but i think anyone else wouldve been KOed)

best chin is easily hunt.

there is no need to continue this discussion ever.

EVER

haha yeha

Mark Hunto !!!!!!!

The fights with LeBanner are prove enough

yeah i don't even think hunt's chin is real, pretty sure he's the bad cyborg from terminator 2. the one that keeps stalking you after you blow a hole through his face with a shotgun.

re rickson:
i don't really know how accurate that 400-0 record is but keep in mind this is top 10 mma guys ever, not top 10 mythical fighters or whatever. arguing for rickson being top 10 is almost as silly as arguing bruce lee being top 10. he has two decent wins on his resume, one came against funaki which is pretty good and his other came against a blinded nakai. that's really not enough to even warrant consideration, much less bump him ahead of guys that have fought and beaten some of the very best in the world on multiple occasions.

re mirko:
it's really too bad, i dunno if it's that he came into mma out of his prime or what. he wins very very impressively, even some of his losses are really impressive, he just never really established a very well rounded game. i think with mirko, chuck, and hughes recent struggles, we've come to a point in mma where you can't simply be great at one thing and be great at keeping the fight at that one thing and hope to get/stay on top. mix that in with his lack of motivation and toughness and he was just never really able to bridge that final gap but everyone seems to think he's top 5 of all time when he really hasn't done much.

Hunt got axekicked by crocop in the face and hunt was like "you fag"

then rushed him.

bruce lee

On March 14 2008 13:29 KeanuReaver wrote: re rickson: i don't really know how accurate that 400-0 record is but keep in mind this is top 10 mma guys ever, not top 10 mythical fighters or whatever. arguing for rickson being top 10 is almost as silly as arguing bruce lee being top 10. he has two decent wins on his resume, one came against funaki which is pretty good and his other came against a blinded nakai. that's really not enough to even warrant consideration, much less bump him ahead of guys that have fought and beaten some of the very best in the world on multiple occasions. .

Naming Rickson Gracie in one sentence with Bruce Lee T_T

Well my opinion that Rickson is TOP 10 all time easily is based on the following facts.

1. He fought a ton of people of all different styles when he was young ( just because todays Top organisations UFC and Pride didnt exist when he was in his prime doesnt mean he did never fight anyone good ...)

Here are just some fights that he won vs well known people outside of big Organisations in BJJ matches

Submitted Saulo Ribiero
Submitted Jacare
Submitted Rigan Machado
Submitted Eric Paulson
Submitted Roy Harris
Defeated Fabio Gurgel ( won by points)

Everybody who knows a bit about groundfighting will realize that this is
some of the absolute creme del a creme in Groundfighting

You all know how Royce Gracie destroyed UFC 1-4 due to his superior groundgame
Now Imagine Rickson Gracie would have fought the first UFCs...

I think there could be no doubt that he easily won them.


2. He fought some of the best ValeTudo guys in Brazil during the BJJ vs LL rivalry in the 80s. And he won all his fights vs the the best Luta Livre Vale Tudo guys

3. I know two good fighters from Germany with whom i talk sometimes in a german MMA forum.
FrancoDeLeonardis ( Ortega)
http://www.sherdog.com/fightfinder/fightfinder.asp?FighterID=7773

and BjörnFriedrich a BJJ brownbelt under Roy Harris
the guy on the right (obv)

And both agree that Rickson was the TOP groundfighter on the Planet when he was younger.

4. Paulo Filho has said in an interview that Rickson dominated him on the ground
Royce Gracie always stressed that Rickson was the best overall fighter of the Gracie family


I dont say Rickson is the best MMA fighter of all times.
And i know this 400-0 record is bullshit since there are only 183 fights documented afaik.
So 217 of his fights probably were like this T_T


0.42 seconds in the video is funny
there u can see a guy who is overmotivated in the rolling and rickson shows his skill for a second .

He also didnt fight any of the new TOP MMA guys at that time like BasRutten , FrankShamrock,VitorBelfort and WanderleiSIlva when MMA got on a new Level.
But i can understand that he refused to fight these young people when he was ~ 40 years old.

I am just saying Rickson is TOP10 all time.


So now lets compare it with Bruce Lee
BruceLee made some pretty entertaining movies
BruceLee invented JKD
BruceLee had some fights with some chinese kung fu guys

Bruce was obv superior cause he was like killed by the mafia n' stuff since he was so pwnage.

1) very little of this is substantiated
2) this still isn't mma
3) most of those guys he beat rolling, he beat before they became world class grapplers

sure he took on a lot of challengers and beat them, if 400 random martial artists challenged fedor what do you think would happen? sure he's arguably the greatest ground fighter from the 80's and early 90's...well jacare, roger gracie, and marcelo garcia are the three greatest of this day and age yet they aren't making anyone's top 10. sure he performed well in vale tudo, but marco ruas was an absolute vale tudo LEGEND yet he wasn't successful at all when mma started to become mainstream and you won't find him on anyone's top 10 here either.

marco vs hunt

good fight imo.

penn skills overall is the best. he can fight bigger guys and trade, his bjj is on another level, and he's always taking risks like no other mma guy can! e.g. smooching an opponent on the lips after beating them - classy fellow imho.

Penn is everything but classy.

lol penn is the biggest asshole ever.

yeah but i give him props for kissing hughes after that triangle choke lolol

On March 15 2008 22:39 whamm! wrote: yeah but i give him props for kissing hughes after that triangle choke lolol

it was a rear naked choke.

and penn is a huge ass. even though he's an islander like me i have to admit it

fedor <---- great athlete,fighter, and hero

wanderlai silva <---- coolest style ever

too bad a fight to death with no padding is illegal ^_^