KJs riv flush 600nl vs Leatherass - Page 2

seems like a pretty standard push.

scream yatzee!! as you shove... seriously every hand you have posted is you second guessing the most trivial and obvious shove only because you got a cooler... leave that to 25nl players ok?



BTW if you think he folds a low-flush here isnt he potentially the most profitable player ever?

theres a difference between exploitable and exploited baal

but yeah i agree easy shove

On August 30 2007 13:00 tomson wrote: I like minraise, fold to a push best. I gave some more detailed thoughts here - http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sho...977&page=0&fpart=all&vc=1

wow i just finished reading that thread

every once in awhile i try to give 2+2 a chance but posts like the one's in Jamie's thread tilt me so hard

On August 30 2007 16:37 Baal wrote: scream yatzee!! as you shove... seriously every hand you have posted is you second guessing the most trivial and obvious shove only because you got a cooler... leave that to 25nl players ok? BTW if you think he folds a low-flush here isnt he potentially the most profitable player ever?

hey hey 25NL players like me are kinda good..... sorta

haha j/k

i think if we look at the hand from vilian's point of view, if we got a read jamie is never bluffing here, its clear we are folding low flushes and it therefore could possilbly be a bit better to flat.

but if vilian have a read ur never bluffing here i think ur doing something wrong?

the point about the hand is this:


when youre playing you shove this every time because it looks like an easy shove, and really nobody is going to flat call here in the moment.

but when you look closely at the hand you begin to realize its very possible shove is not the best play and you start thinking about calling

then the more you look at it you realize that minraise fold to a shove looks terrible and fishy but is by far the best play because hes not going to be rebluff shoving with the naked As that often and you get enough value from lower flushes and maybe some sets to make it worthwhile

its just a really interesting hand to think about for a while but its almost impossible to apply a lot of the stuff you learn from this hand because theres so much involved and its way too much to think through when youre like 6 tabling and have a timebank to worry about

daut for president

On August 30 2007 19:01 adam001 wrote: daut for president

This is probably the best point in this thread... with Dauts post a close 2nd

im crying right now due to daut's and tomson's responses...this is a shove.

On August 30 2007 18:52 Daut wrote: then the more you look at it you realize that minraise fold to a shove looks terrible and fishy but is by far the best play because hes not going to be rebluff shoving with the naked As that often and you get enough value from lower flushes and maybe some sets to make it worthwhile

The problem with this play is you make it with no other hands than the one you have so it only works in a vacuum. =

but our calling/raising range on the river is sooooo limited
i dont think anyone is going to be floating the 4 way flop when he bets big and then check behind the turn
i mean AK is reraised pre, AQ often is, AJ often folded pre or on the flop, how often do we really have ANY hands on the river

i dont think it matters that we dont show up with many other hands besides the KJss hand in thie specific spot because given the setup, there arent really many hands in our range to begin with

regardless of how jamie plays this hand, I think we can all agree that he should he shoving with the naked As here everytime given whats been said about leatherass and jamie's image vs him.
If leatherass is as good as you say then isn't he going to see right through the minraise for what it is? Or are we thinking that the small amount of additional pot odds he would be getting would change things despite the transparency of our play?
I guess I think that if your image vs leatherass is definitely such that he folds all worse hands to a push, then you should flat call here. But that you should also be bluffing more to exploit him. If/when he realizes hes being exploited, and starts calling more than this becomes an easy push.

err....i think it's just as simple as rekrul said...automatic shove here, because KsXs is a necessary component of a good shoving range on this river. why is this hand any more difficult than that?

don't even consider "the vacuum" when playing against a regular with whom you will someday have a lot of history. who cares

On August 30 2007 21:07 [vital]Myth wrote: don't even consider "the vacuum" when playing against a regular with whom you will someday have a lot of history. who cares

great post as always

On August 30 2007 18:52 Daut wrote: the point about the hand is this: when youre playing you shove this every time because it looks like an easy shove, and really nobody is going to flat call here in the moment. but when you look closely at the hand you begin to realize its very possible shove is not the best play and you start thinking about calling then the more you look at it you realize that minraise fold to a shove looks terrible and fishy but is by far the best play because hes not going to be rebluff shoving with the naked As that often and you get enough value from lower flushes and maybe some sets to make it worthwhile its just a really interesting hand to think about for a while but its almost impossible to apply a lot of the stuff you learn from this hand because theres so much involved and its way too much to think through when youre like 6 tabling and have a timebank to worry about

i think its clear push is best
like a lower flush is going to fold

"a lower flush is going to fold"



i think we are missing the big picture here... if he really is folding a low flush here we are playing TERRIBLE poker and we should use that ridiculously nitty image to abuse leatherass beyond belief...

On August 30 2007 20:43 Fraser wrote: regardless of how jamie plays this hand, I think we can all agree that he should he shoving with the naked As here everytime given whats been said about leatherass and jamie's image vs him.

You're saying Jamie should be shoving the naked As here as a bluff every time?

You're missing the point of the hand then. Jamie having KsJs excludes K hi, Q hi and J hi flushes from Leatherass range and dramatically lowers his calling range.

Here are some points I don't agree with you people:

but if vilian have a read ur never bluffing here i think ur doing something wrong?

His calling range is limited, because of the board and the cards we have. The best hand that he can have that we beat is 8s7s.

There are just some spots in poker where you have the 2nd nut hand, but you still shouldn't raise for value and it has nothing to do with being transparent as a player. An easier example (and please don't try to disaprove it, because I didn't spend much time looking for one) would be a A4443 board when the opponent bet the flop, you called, both checked the turn and now he leads 2/3 of the pot on the river. You have an Ace. Nobody raises here with worse than a Ace therefore you are gonna be flatting, because there's no value in raising and there is the possibility that he has a 4.

Now we're talking about a hand that is a bit more complicated than that, but the point still stays the same. He folds out weaker hands to a shove, because nobody is bluffing here with worse than a flush when they're shoving (unless there is some serious metagame, hero is crazy and decided to change his hand with showdown value into a bluff, which isn't be the case in these games, with these players).

i think its clear push is best like a lower flush is going to fold

I think Leatherass folds small flushes at least most of the time here. Why is that so difficult to grasp? He's a very good, thinking player very capable of making big laydowns. Would you call a shove in his spot with a hand like 4s5s? If so I think you're making a mistake.

On August 30 2007 13:00 tomson wrote: I like minraise, fold to a push best. I gave some more detailed thoughts here - http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sho...977&page=0&fpart=all&vc=1

I really dont understand this line, I feel anything he is betting on the river like 99 AA AsXs and maybe 22 and A9 he is shoving over ur min raise. It doesnt tighten his range to only the nut flush.

To me this looks like a no brainer shove on the river.