KJs riv flush 600nl vs Leatherass - Page 4

Tomson your posts are well thought out and very detailed but its hard for people to counter your arguments in a detailed way when the answer is pretty simple. Leatherass or your average 3/6 grinder just isn't good enough to be folding smaller flushes that often here and I think he'll even sometimes call with sets and sometimes worse. If he was good enough to make that kind of laydown more often than not then I would probably agree with your strategy, but I've played against him thousands of hands and I just don't get that impression.

ya i agree mcnasty, but i still think its close in either direction (based purely on EV and in a vacuum) and obviously since its close the fact that we need a non trivial shoving range on any river pushes it into the shove column

I love these threads... Daut's words are like magic to my ears.

what the hell does magic do for ears?

I think you guys vastly overrate leatherass skill. He's usually short stacking 5/10 and 10/20 for a clear reason : he's just not good enough to beat these games.

It's clearly a super + EV shove to me, and i think even if you have a tight image, it has to be +EV for you too, especially considering meta game possibilities that this shove opens if you get called. Then everytime you call a flop of this kind of texture with a straight draw and check behind the turn, you could shove over him when flush hits, ....

If we are flatting K high flush here why do you expect him to call with J high flush if we shove? i think its pretty clear we would never shove something worse than J high flush maybe Q high... given that shoving on a float with AsX should be great because we will expect to fold pretty much anything according to his calling range.. because 45s is as good as Q high flush for him because we are flatting weak flushes.

I am not saying about this particular hand where flatting is not bad, im talking about the situation that leades us to flat call with the 2nd nuts, its ridiculous.

Also i cant image what a terrible image you would get when you turn upside down your K high flush.

baal i sidebet my whole roll he never calls with a jack high flush when we shove here (before slow people start calling me a dumb nit its because we have the !)

competely agree with daut in that this looks like an autoshove in the heat of the moment because second nuts is a powerful hand in unlimited texas hold them. but when you look at it more you realise shove isnt actually as massively +ev as it first appears because hes probably most often bet/folding for value with anything that isnt a flush and there really arent that many possible lower flushes compared to "normal" because the K J T 9 are already out (he'd have to have Q8s 67s 56s etc, hands he's less likely to isolate a non-fullstack preflop with than premiums/Axs)

nonetheless i still think shoving is best since there probably is some value in it although it might be kinda thin. i tend not to use "unbalanced" lines vs regulars like the value minraise/fold to shove suggestion since I'm never going to wanna minraise when i decide to bluff riv. I'm always bluff shoving if i bluff so I'll value shove too.

i def use small value raise intending to fold to shove line in different situations vs non-regular unknown fish - although id never consider doing it with this hand on this board against an unknown, the only thing im trying to say is these "fancy" lines can have merit against the right predictable soft players when you dont care about balance/unreadableness/unexploitability vs them

On August 31 2007 06:19 Cutsss wrote: i got alot of ideas about the hand but dunno really what to do. - I like a shove here for the reasons mez and naz gave, you give him a hard time, and even if there is close to zero value from a worse hand, if he folds ure winning some value on ur future value shoves. - If u flat call, whatever happens, youre setting up a really tight image on you river moves, and you'll have to use that later to bluff him, do u have the balls to bluff shove him later on ? - Is that guy really NEVER EVER isolating utg limper with 89s 78s ? Maybe but if he can do it sometimes, it really changes the hand. - Is he also always checking the turn with AXss ? Because it's pretty obvious on the flop that you don't have a set or two pairs (u'd protect) and he can semibluff u off a weak ace because its obvious ure not strong (u'd repop AQ AK preflop (maybe he is too tight and stupid to realize that)) It's impossible he was controlling the pot size on the turn coz he'd never value bet this river (or maybe as a bluff). So he either missed a checkraise or hit his flush. Problem is that he'd not often value bet the hand he missed the checkraise on the turn with because he is a nit. And if he was value betting it, I think the betsize would be a little smaller like a blocking bet trying to get a small value hoping not to get raised. So he has a flush, or he is bluffing. It's really close but if you put into his range hands like 89s 78s, a push becomes profitable. The flow of the game also depends, if he's stuck, losing alot of hands, or if the utg guy has been limping all the time, then he might do something different than he usually does... Also to take in consideration the image you want to setup for future hands against this reg, and for that I love the river shove.

- If u flat call, whatever happens, youre setting up a really tight image on you river moves, and you'll have to use that later to bluff him, do u have the balls to bluff shove him later on ?

You cant use that to your advantage AT ALL. You dont push river with second nuts, how are you going to represent anything? I thought great bluffs required thin value betting, not nitty calls.

Btw, if he played Axs this way, hed often check river. And Axs is not a big part of his range at all.
And this is a very EV+ push, as well have him beat like 90% of the time here and Im pretty sure well have him beat more than 50% after his call.

Tomson laid out some good reasons, but miniraising is awful and call is also bad.
I dont believe hell fold a set and a low flush often enough here to make a push unprofitable.

it's pretty simple

the only way this is a flat call is if you don't bluff rivers.


THERE QUESTION SOLVED

nope, u think a guy named leatherass is gunna fold a loww flushhh??

plus someone who hits the nuts will bet more than 200$ on river

On September 02 2007 13:35 WiseAdvice wrote: plus someone who hits the nuts will bet more than 200$ on river

Butttttt he didnt....
I obv shoved not even thinking twice about it... then I was just thinking about it later and I thoguht it was closer than it looked b/c of mostly tomsons reasoning who Ive talked w/ this hand a lot. Anyways I think this hand just shows that if you need to have a very openmind when you think about poker and be willing to accept any sort of different play. He snapped w/ AsQs fwiw

There is another reason why shove, your image is probably very tight flatting here with K high would set the most ridiculous tight image... that would be good if you were a loosey goose and steal pots from him later on, but that simply isnt in your style of play and it will be harder for you to adapt to it than if you shove here and get a better image that might get u paid off next river.

On September 01 2007 22:39 Ket wrote: baal i sidebet my whole roll he never calls with a jack high flush when we shove here (before slow people start calling me a dumb nit its because we have the !) competely agree with daut in that this looks like an autoshove in the heat of the moment because second nuts is a powerful hand in unlimited texas hold them. but when you look at it more you realise shove isnt actually as massively +ev as it first appears because hes probably most often bet/folding for value with anything that isnt a flush and there really arent that many possible lower flushes compared to "normal" because the K J T 9 are already out (he'd have to have Q8s 67s 56s etc, hands he's less likely to isolate a non-fullstack preflop with than premiums/Axs) nonetheless i still think shoving is best since there probably is some value in it although it might be kinda thin. i tend not to use "unbalanced" lines vs regulars like the value minraise/fold to shove suggestion since I'm never going to wanna minraise when i decide to bluff riv. I'm always bluff shoving if i bluff so I'll value shove too. i def use small value raise intending to fold to shove line in different situations vs non-regular unknown fish - although id never consider doing it with this hand on this board against an unknown, the only thing im trying to say is these "fancy" lines can have merit against the right predictable soft players when you dont care about balance/unreadableness/unexploitability vs them

Ket i wasnt talking in this hand... i meant that if every time we shove here (with any 2)he folds anything from J high flush and below we should be bluffing this guy on almost any flush river while we float him with shit... 45s has the same value as JTs when shoved by Jamie if he is flatting K high flush, he would never shove T high flush.