lol I've been doing a version of sacsri's queen hydra build for more than a year now, as a response to 1-1-1 and mech builds. My experience is that as long as I don't fuck up and as long as they make tanks, I absolutely destroy my opponent. like the timing tends to be me having ~30 +1 hydra 4-5 queen vs 20 m&m 4 tanks. with 4 tanks that's a pretty easy hold, without any tanks hydras win with 20 of them left over. Been wanting to see korean progamers try it cuz I've been confident it could work (I've beat 2600 mmr players with it too).
And of course flash counters with ebays. (I remember doing that myself vs testie back in 1999!!)
holy shit game 2 was incredible. game 3 was great too, particularly because I watched it afterwards and based on the length of the VOD knew it would be a 4 game set meaning it was the decider, but it wasn't as intense as game 2.
I didn't realize light was so strong in TvT. Thought he was basically the #2 TvZ player, but much weaker than Last/Sharp in TvT, very happy to be proven wrong!
NewbSaibot: 18 TIMES THE SPEED OF LIGHT. Because FUCK YOU, Daut
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NMcNasty United States. Aug 12 2019 00:53. Posts 2039
Here's the english VOD. Youtubes get taken down whenever someone uses a song that gets flagged for copyright infringement as their intro song, I think.
I watched an hour of bisu playing larva+mong since returning from military and even now he's just on another level mechanically from everyone else. Can multitask like no other. He was still a little rusty, and he's not up to date on the new metas, but man is his clicking ability out of this world.
NewbSaibot: 18 TIMES THE SPEED OF LIGHT. Because FUCK YOU, Daut
and yea reason why bisu is the greatest at pvz is that he has greater multitask than anyone and in pvz that makes zerg fall apart. pvt is a different beast where the action tends to be less fragmented, and then he doesn't have quite the same ability to truly shine.
lol POKER
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FrinkX United States. Aug 15 2019 13:05. Posts 7561
But with no flash/soulkey/effort/hero around, I think Rain is just going to dominate everything in the foreseeable future. He crushes Last, the other Terrans are a tier below, and he is basically untouchable in PvP. Just have to hope we get a Flash vs Snow epic finals before the Rain stomp fest begins.
NewbSaibot: 18 TIMES THE SPEED OF LIGHT. Because FUCK YOU, Daut
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YoMeR United States. Aug 18 2019 23:53. Posts 12435
Old BW gods stay bw gods...my god they are still so goddamn good.
I feel so impressed by Rain and soulkey ...they owning at both SC2 and BW... both pinnacles at their respective races in both games for quite period of time. And looks to be no end in sight either...
traxamillion United States. Aug 24 2019 02:04. Posts 10468
Sad action punted that game 2. He should have been able to win that. He could have killed Snow's main while defending his natural (which saves his nat, main, and hidden 3rd) and letting 2 bases die while pulling back drones instead of flying the muta home to defend. Then he wins fairly easily 3 base to 1. He had other routes to victory as well.
Seems like he was just tilted and put himself in a position where he was on the clock with no lurkers or tech and suicided 100 hydras into storms in a choke...
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traxamillion United States. Aug 24 2019 02:05. Posts 10468
The newer hydra busts aren't meant to be pure busts, but are more strategic ways of taking the map. Basically zergs take 3 bases, get a specific number of drones mining each base (9 main, 7 natural, 3 3rd), put 4th hatchery at a 4th base, and attack with hydras to try to rip down the forge+gateway at front before +1 weapons finishes. They poke in just to keep the protoss honest with enough cannons, but the main goal is then to drone up, get lair, tech into lurker/muta, and eventually tier 3 and just prevent the protoss from getting a 4th base while they eventually grab a 5th and run the game over.
It's forced protoss to alter some of the corsair builds -- going forge expo into corsair into templar tech leaves Protoss behind against the best zergs (look at games 2/3 and the position Action was in before Snow outclassed him), so now most Protoss mix it up between going gateway expo, forge expo then straight citadel, or forge expo into sair/reaver before citadel. Of course the original build is still great if the zerg does anything else, like lair tech, but the 9734 (referring to the drones at each base and the 4th hatchery at a 4th expo) hydra build is designed to destroy it.
NewbSaibot: 18 TIMES THE SPEED OF LIGHT. Because FUCK YOU, Daut
Last edit: 24/08/2019 02:40
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blackjacki2 United States. Aug 25 2019 04:35. Posts 2581
I don't play zerg but I honestly don't understand why zergs don't go early hydras every game. Not a hydra bust but just the 6 or so hydralisks with range to snipe down the gateway/forge and force a bunch of cannons. SnOw must have made 10 cannons at his natural, that's 15 zealots worth of minerals. That has to be so worth cutting your drone production a bit. I feel like zergs have gotten away from that and gone more for all-in hydra busts or just leave the protoss unfettered until you get rolled by a 2-base push.
On August 25 2019 03:35 blackjacki2 wrote:
I don't play zerg but I honestly don't understand why zergs don't go early hydras every game. Not a hydra bust but just the 6 or so hydralisks with range to snipe down the gateway/forge and force a bunch of cannons. SnOw must have made 10 cannons at his natural, that's 15 zealots worth of minerals. That has to be so worth cutting your drone production a bit. I feel like zergs have gotten away from that and gone more for all-in hydra busts or just leave the protoss unfettered until you get rolled by a 2-base push.
That's what Zergs have realized lately. FLash explains this new 9-7-3-(4) ---> Drones on each base breaks the Bisu (Protoss) build almost entirely. Timing builds are so precise nowadays the Protoss needs some new thing in response.
Flash says here that map tweaks or removal have broken 1-1-1 for a while now which is why nobody uses it anymore. I will miss seeing Flash and how brilliant this guy analyzes the game in general.
Also zergs found that 2 hatch muta works vs either 5 rax or 1-1-1.
I think Protoss will find that gateway first builds work vs anything zerg does. I don't think Protoss can start going sair reaver as a catch-all build, as that seems far inferior vs the power drone into scourge into hydra/lurker into defiler builds. Nor can they just go citadel as that gets destroyed by muta builds since mutas can outmicro archons and snipe temps. The main problem now is that zergs are often faking what they do, either making it look like 9734 by going overpool into den but then canceling and going muta which forces protoss to make a few unnecessary cannons at the front, or going lair then canceling and going 9734 which is built to dominate the bisu corsair into templar builds.
I think at the highest levels the matchup will remain balanced, but it's very easy for a mid level to decent zerg to learn these types of builds and dominate protoss players who can't keep scouting probes alive long enough to see tech routes and then are forced into either a guessing game or overdefending against multiple threats.
NewbSaibot: 18 TIMES THE SPEED OF LIGHT. Because FUCK YOU, Daut
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Liquid`Drone Norway. Aug 28 2019 10:19. Posts 3093
I think more skipping sair with faster DA will be new meta personally. the 9734 seems to crush sair openings fairly hard (assuming the zerg plays really well - this is a build order where I myself don't feel skilled enough to benefit from it, depends a little on map though.)
It's funny cause I've been hearing protosses whine about 973 for more than a year now. I've never found it troublesome - for two reasons, one that I like gateway expand more than forge expand, second that I like going into citadel more than stargate. And in theory this should mean that I'm weak against mutas - but I usually get a fast dark archon, so I'm fine against that. (Incidentally this normally responds much more poorly towards lurker builds, but it's 'established knowledge' that you should go muta against non-stargate). I see much more DA from protosses in general these days.
I've also been experimenting with DA rush pvp lately and it's actually working fairly well. :D Basically if the opponent scouts me, I just go citadel+templar archives while the probe is still in my main. then they all go robo and obs first, and then they all go into reaver afterwards. But what I do is instead of attack with my first two dts, I just make a DA and get mind control right away, and timing wise it works out so I have MC before the first shuttle with reaver gets to my base. I've done it twice against good players now (bonyth one of them) and while I didn't actually get to MC the shuttle either time (both players saw the DA and ended up not harassing me much - which is also a win), I still won one of the games because in the first big fight that happened, I started it off by feedbacking all 4 templars he had.
but how does DA stop the mutas you need to also research storm and get the templars don't you? is there time?
Ex-PokerStars Team Pro Online
Last edit: 29/08/2019 00:33
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Liquid`Drone Norway. Aug 29 2019 00:48. Posts 3093
I mean that all depends on the flow of the game. If zerg is doing a 973ish build mutas aren't gonna come around really early - especially not if you are doing 4 gate speed zealot. In this case you go templar first, and then depending on what your zealots scout (natural with gas taken quickly, low hydra/hatchery count will indicate mutas, a faster 5th hatchery and more hydras will mean no mutas for a good while) you add cannons in your main+natural while going into DA. cannons+storm supposed to keep him from killing too many probes until maelstrom is out. If zerg isn't doing a 973ish build (meaning he doesn't apply any pressure with hydras) then you are free to open stargate as normal.
The main point with the DA is for when you push out later. If p opened stargate and maintained his corsair fleet, zerg usually avoids getting one of those muta flocks for templar snipes / those snipes end up being really expensive. but if there are less than 3 corsairs, when p moves out with his 30 goon zealot 4-6 templar force, you often see zerg swooping in with 9 mutas and killing 3+ of the templars before a 50 hydra force defeats the rest of the p army. If protoss goes dark archon and maelstrom, this entire muta swoop is nullified, and then you have 8 storms to go with your army instead of 2 storms and suddenly 50 hydras are much less fearsome.
corsairs have an added benefit, which is really significant for progamers cause they have such amazing multitask, in that they can clear away any overlords making storm and dt drops/harassment significantly more powerful. But for players at my level or lower I think going the DA route is much easier in general - and specifically against the 9734 build which counters sair openings, I think DA route is how you have to go.
was disappointed with snow's choice of strat in game 4 after he saw the fast cc. he was almost able to break him with gates while going 3 stargate carrier, if he instead of 3 gate goon zealot 3 stargate carrier went into 7 gate zeal goon with a couple shuttles there's absolutely no way even flash would hold with his 1 factory production. But mostly this was just flash being godly tbh.
Flash got a little lucky to perfectly counter Snow's build in game 4, hit the 1/3 shot at ending up on the same side on Multiverse, and cannot believe how poorly Snow defended his probes from vulture harass -- almost every Protoss uses pylons and builds one of the Robo support buildings to block off the choke to natural, yet Snow neglected this and got completely punished repeatedly. But really none of that mattered, he wasn't winning these games -- Flash simultaneously played in such a safe way that reaver could only be used to slow pushes but was also keenly aware of timings/unit placements and knew exactly when and where to attack in every game. The Tripod game was something else, have no words for Flash's game sense, just unbelievable to get max harass with the dropship+tanks and escape unscathed and to hit just before 4 carriers and before speed zealots. Starcraft won't be as fun without his genius for the next ~24 months
NewbSaibot: 18 TIMES THE SPEED OF LIGHT. Because FUCK YOU, Daut
Last edit: 01/09/2019 19:59
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blackjacki2 United States. Sep 01 2019 20:09. Posts 2581
Agree with Eri, especially after Snow lost game 3 in similar fashion while having the earlier 3rd base, no way he can think he's going to win with the slower 3rd base. Have to go for all-in bust. He must have mentally conceded that he was getting 4-0'd by the GOAT and just wanted to try to make it to late game lol
Really sad to see Snow get carved up by vultures in Game 1. He had a huge gas bank, maybe could have made a few more observers to put around Flash's base to see the dropships leaving so he can be better prepared for the drops instead of just responding when vultures are in his mineral lines eating up probes.
G1 was amazing haha
hard to blame the guy that lost for getting greedy with expansion he couldnt protect
All the timings were out of whack for both after that ridiculous low supply start
Flash attack timings are always perfect, there are many times where if he attacks a bit sooner or later he is in trouble but he goes out at the exact correct time every time. its amazing.
That 3rd game damn... is there a point to even invite him to the tournament? Just give him that 1st prize money and let the rest battle it out for 2nd place
United States. Aug 11 2019 18:17. Posts 8955
