The one thing I didn't like about it is that she killed him with a "normal" dagger (even though that dagger has a history and was meant to kill Bran). I would have liked it if she had had a "double-dagger" made, one that splits into two like her other weapon, specifically for this.
bran's dagger seems quite fitting to me
It's fitting for sure, I just think this version makes the NK something less of a supervillain, and it makes Arya something less of an assassin (at least, if you think she didn't plan to be stopped). The NK clearly sees the dagger falling and he just doesn't react, which makes him seem less competent than we would predict, and it makes it feel like Arya might have just been lucky. If he was tricked by a special dagger, it would do better justice to both characters.
Some great things about this episode:
-the music
-some of the visual effects (Dothraki arakhs lighting up)
-the idea of concentric circles breaking down as the wights/walkers advance towards Bran
-overall pacing to keep an 80 minute battle interesting and tense
-how many pieces of the story came full circle -- Melisandre previous conversation with Arya, Beric coming back to life repeatedly to keep Arya alive
-Arya's stealth scene in the library
-the Dothraki getting destroyed (awful strategy, but awesome to see the lights go out)
Some obvious ways to improve this episode:
-better lighting around the castle. The snowy fog makes sense to disorient Dany/Jon on their dragons, but we needed to see more the closer it was to the castle
-kill a major character. I get it, this builds a bit more suspense for the final episodes since everyone who has some chance to claim the iron throne at the end is still around, but just probabilistically, if a high % of overall people die in this battle, a % of the most important people should die as well.
-more ruthlessness from the NK: raise the dead more than once (I get why they didn't, because then it would be chaos in the crypts from the getgo, but he really should have raised the Dothraki immediately, and it seems he's not the only one who can raise the dead either because of that scene where Jon kills a whitewalker and the other wights all immediately died implying those wights were raised by that walker), multiple ice javelins thrown instead of using one of his super weapons that already gave him a dragon only once, more protection around him rather than have him in one area unguarded other than his ice dragon.
Some criticisms I'll walk back:
-Bran doing more: how much can he really do here? He has knowledge and can warg, but what can he reasonably warg into to improve chances of winning?
-Arya sneaking up on NK without showing her from the tower to the Weirwood: she's stealthy AF
-anti-climactic close to battle vs NK: we could have used some more character development of him (particularly from the children of the forest or from Bran), but it's hard to retreat thousands of people in winter, and killing him ends the war so it's tough to change this without drastically changing the ending
-lack of strategy: they had little time to prepare for this defense, and theyve had awful strategy all along, don't think we can expect them to turn into Hannibal overnight.
It was a more tense/suspenseful episode than Blackwater and Battle of the Bastards, but it just feels like it was worse done. Blackwater had no strategic gaffs, Battle of the Bastards was one of the most beautifully shot episodes of any show in history to make up for the strategic gaffs. This was good, and they did a great job at many subtle things, but I just feel like they left a bit too much on the table. It reminded me of watching NBA coaches make serious blunders on obvious things like Doc Rivers failing to play Lou WIlliams 40 minutes in the playoffs, but doing a great job at Xs and Os type stuff. I guess it's just hard to do things perfectly, everything has trade offs, and everyone has blind spots.
NewbSaibot: 18 TIMES THE SPEED OF LIGHT. Because FUCK YOU, Daut
dothraki charge was obviously idiotic but it makes sense to me. They're highly trained - yes - they've been constantly boasting about their fighting superiority and how inferior people from westeros are. They're used to just plowing through ground armies like nothing - these didn't even have spears. They've just had all their weapons infused with magical fire. Them just going 'let's show these frightened fuckers what the dothraki horde can do' and charging in strikes me as plausible stupidity. That scene was basically this season's example of death by hubris - of which there are plenty in GoT.
I agree that more characters should have died. The darkness/blizzard making it impossible to see was annoying- the blizzard makes sense cause they had to nerf the dragons - but it made the outside battle pretty boring. Aside from that, it's a good battle episode, but there is some annoyingly stupid stuff in there. (jon being surrounded by 100 wights that for some reason don't attack, unlike all the other wights. Or like, I like girl power and have generally loved the lady mormont character - I think it's within the realm of plausability that a 12 year old girl can be this badass in attitude - it's not within the realm of possibility that she's physically strong enough to withstand being crushed by a giant. This exact death would have been perfect for Thormund also.
Then there's the whole.. this is the end of the night king part, which I don't like, but can understand. While the books are called a song of ice and fire, the show is called game of thrones. The story arc, using the books as a starting point but deviating an extreme amount later on, seems to have had the battle against the undead as a bigger overarching theme, while the show has had greater focus on ruling king's landing. So it does feel inconsistent in a way; like I think this battle should have been the second to last episode with the last episode being an epilogue of sorts, with them having resolved the question of the throne beforehand. However then the 'game of thrones' would instead be over - now there's still genuine some suspense regarding whether it's gonna be cersei or jon or dany sitting there in the end.
And one final comment on the idea that 'this is GoT, we fell in love with the brutality, realism, unpredictability, they ruin that by giving a 'happy' ending', I don't really agree with that. I think it's more a testament to the success of the early 'sacrifices' that they genuinely make us uncertain whether the happy ending is coming or not, and that creates great tension and suspense. While I agree that the outcome was unrealistically good (in terms of amount of surviving heroes), during the episode the only people I was certain would make it were jon and daenerys - so it was still massively suspenseful.
He made the soundtrack for Westworld as well and you might not like the show but the music there is also incredible. I'm pretty sure he won an Emmy for the Light of the seven though no?
I actually think Tyrion dying as an end to the show would be the most dramatic thing that can happen. I'm pretty sure people generally expect Dany/Jon/Cersei/Sansa to die and they think Arya and Tyrion are safe as they were George RR Martin's favorites. It also makes a lot of sense for George RR Martin to kill off his favorite character though with all of those in mind. At this point, we feel like they are all fighting in a pointless stupid game so we dont really care if they all die even, but Tyrion has been bashed by faith throughout the entire story and we feel like he deserves a happy ending no? He just wants booze and women in a peaceful era. He's also the only one that seems to be fit for the Lannister name cause he actually lives up to the responsibilities that name bear with it, generally doing what's right rather than what would put him ahead.
If he does die due to treason, its gonna be either because of Sansa or Cersei.... I would not be surprised if he tries to save Cersei somehow and gets caught doing so. I don't think Jon would allow Daenerys to execute Tyrion if he has helped Sansa in some way plus he should be the first heir to the throne now... so the other thing makes much more sense and its totally in character for him to try to save someone that he generally hates cause they're family(would be quite naive obv, since Cersei is beyond redemption obv)
The episode was trash in terms of writing but good in directing.
One of the main things that set GoT apart from other fantasy (and most shows/movies) is that death is realistic, its brutal, unexpect and unjust as it is in reality, charactesr didn't get to finish their arc to die, they didn't get poetic justice, they didn't die as they would have liked to die, and that has been lost and this episode is the biggest display of that.
Theon gets his redemption and dies protecting Starks, Jorah in the most awful Deux Ex Machina moment gets to fight and die defending Daenerys, Lianna Mormont dies simbollically taking a giant, (I really would have liked if that hit from the giant had done the job).
It was more a LotR episode than a GoT one and thats a fucking shame, it was full of awful hollywood cliches, the scene where the NK didnt die from fire was dragged soooooooo painfully long when it was obviouis he wasnt dead (camera zooms into the fire... then into Jon, Daenerys face... back to Jon, back to Daeneris squinting, back to fire) oh for fucks sake!.
The Arya scene where she hids from 4 wights after she killed 20 in 30 secons is also awful and cliché, the blood dripping below the table is "horror movie cliche 101", If you are going to do that shit why not use the NK"s generals (who were a wasted concept), that would have made the scene much better.
The whole crypt thing was a waste of time, so nobody died, they just wasted time showing Sansa and Tyrion looking into each other's eyes.
Possibly the worst part is that at one time it seems like theres only 10 people of so alive all being pushed into the castle wall... all of them main characters.
George RR Marting is probably gouging his eyes out after this crap.
Finally, someone shares my view, was starting to think I'm a cynical hater
I hope GRRM is indeed gauging his eyes. It has been 8 years since the last book. Eight fucking years.
In comparison Brandon Sanderson has published 12 books in that time, some of which are utter trash indeed, but most of them are insanely good and he actually started a new fantasy series called "The Stormlight Archives" which is at least as well written as ASOIF and he is most likely going to finish those series before GRRM finishes ASOIF even though he has only published 3 out of the expected 10 books.
GRRM should invite Patrick Rothfuss and they should go take a course on less-stupid-shit, more-writy-stuff
Last edit: 01/05/2019 01:53
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Stroggoz New Zealand. May 01 2019 04:09. Posts 5296
GRRM said the show killed off a lot more people than he was in the books.
One of 3 non decent human beings on a site of 5 people with between 2-3 decent human beings
Last edit: 01/05/2019 06:18
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Liquid`Drone Norway. May 01 2019 08:07. Posts 3093
the stormlight archives is amazing. I've never been a big book reader but I plowed through 3700 pages of that in half a year - with game of thrones I stopped somewhere during book 2 cuz it was too slow. I also think it will be incredibly hard to turn the stormlight archives into a series/movies that does any justice to the world he has created, but I have heard they are trying.
There is this fan theory that could save one of the blunders but its to good to be true imo:
This scene was actually Jon creating a distraction for Arya, the ice dragon is protecting the entrance to the Godswood.
I wonder if he really can scream "go go go" but because of the music u cant hear it.
Something that supports this claim could be that they cut their documentary about the episode right at this spot:
at 31:18
Ofc this is to good to be true.
In the end i think this episode was very good in terms of cinematography, music, effects, mood, directing... everything but the logic of the plot made perfect sense and it was of great quality. They really had the chance to make a brilliant episode/s out of it but the logic of the screenwriting kind of sucked.
I just can hope that they will improve the situation with the 3 episodes left... but now i dont know what will happen if Jon kills Daenerys(as they are trying to implement some of that Azor Ahai/TPTWP stuff) - so far Danny actually suffered the greatest losses trying to save everyone - she lost a dragon, almost died few times, lost her only true friend, lost 80% of her army to actually help the realm, and is about to lose the purpose of her whole existence(the claim to the iron throne) to the man she loves and who will have difficulties to love her back now. To me at this point Jon killing Danny will ruin both characters for no reason making the ending really stupid. And if they decide to ruin Danny in just 3 episodes it will also feel very rushed and retarded.
I wonder how are they going to defeat Cersei's army, cause by the way I see it they have two ways of going now:
A) Cersei actually has a solution to the dragons, meaning Dany, Jon & Co. need another Deus Ex moment e.g. Jaimie killing Cersei, while someone else kills Euron, which would let Jaimie take control of King's Landing army and the Golden Company will back off since there will be no one paying them and they are known to leave a war campaign mid chaos cause they wouldn't get paid - they're very ruthless in that way
B) Cersei has no solution to the dragons, which means Dany would simply run them over without a sweat
Both of them sound quite boring, but maybe a straight forward logic is the way to go rather than have stupid shit like the last episode.
Next episode is probably going to be a chill one and then we get action-packed last 2 episodes as usual
Offtopic:
On May 01 2019 07:07 Liquid`Drone wrote:
the stormlight archives is amazing. I've never been a big book reader but I plowed through 3700 pages of that in half a year - with game of thrones I stopped somewhere during book 2 cuz it was too slow. I also think it will be incredibly hard to turn the stormlight archives into a series/movies that does any justice to the world he has created, but I have heard they are trying.
Same, except I read on almost a daily basis, but i rarely stay until 5am reading a book cause I just wanna know whats going on, with fantasies it's only happened with The Stormlight Archives and The Kingkiller Chronicle (don't start this one, its supposed to be a trilogy and the 2nd book was written 8 years ago and I have no clue how he'll end his story in a single book, nor if he will ever write it). I only kinda dislike the fact that you kind of know which characters are safe from death in Sanderson's series, he has a certain style
if Cersei dies has to be to Arya's hands no? because of the prophecy (green eyes)
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Stroggoz New Zealand. May 01 2019 23:59. Posts 5296
why assume phophecies and azhor ahai to even be a real thing, azhor ahai is probably made up history and that witch was completely full of shit, most likely. In the books cersei is not a powerful person, she doesn't need to be defeated because she defeats herself with her mental issues, (envy, narcaccism, promiscuity, love). I really dislike the way they took her in the show, from season 6 onwards.
One of 3 non decent human beings on a site of 5 people with between 2-3 decent human beings
On May 01 2019 22:03 Spitfiree wrote:
I wonder how are they going to defeat Cersei's army, cause by the way I see it they have two ways of going now:
A) Cersei actually has a solution to the dragons, meaning Dany, Jon & Co. need another Deus Ex moment e.g. Jaimie killing Cersei, while someone else kills Euron, which would let Jaimie take control of King's Landing army and the Golden Company will back off since there will be no one paying them and they are known to leave a war campaign mid chaos cause they wouldn't get paid - they're very ruthless in that way
B) Cersei has no solution to the dragons, which means Dany would simply run them over without a sweat
Both of them sound quite boring, but maybe a straight forward logic is the way to go rather than have stupid shit like the last episode.
Next episode is probably going to be a chill one and then we get action-packed last 2 episodes as usual
On May 01 2019 07:07 Liquid`Drone wrote:
the stormlight archives is amazing. I've never been a big book reader but I plowed through 3700 pages of that in half a year - with game of thrones I stopped somewhere during book 2 cuz it was too slow. I also think it will be incredibly hard to turn the stormlight archives into a series/movies that does any justice to the world he has created, but I have heard they are trying.
Same, except I read on almost a daily basis, but i rarely stay until 5am reading a book cause I just wanna know whats going on, with fantasies it's only happened with The Stormlight Archives and The Kingkiller Chronicle (don't start this one, its supposed to be a trilogy and the 2nd book was written 8 years ago and I have no clue how he'll end his story in a single book, nor if he will ever write it). I only kinda dislike the fact that you kind of know which characters are safe from death in Sanderson's series, he has a certain style
I just finished Name of the Wind, loved it, immediately bought The Wise Man's Fear and tried to buy the third book but realized I had another ASOIAF on my hands ugh
NewbSaibot: 18 TIMES THE SPEED OF LIGHT. Because FUCK YOU, Daut
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Liquid`Drone Norway. May 02 2019 16:18. Posts 3093
lol yeah I had that same thing happen with the name of the wind and the wise man's fear. I liked both those a lot. (Stormwind archives more, though, but the kingkiller chronicles was what made me interested in fantasy again. )
Only I went one step further and attempting to buy the third book, I instead bought some real silly book called the slow regard of silent things, which isn't part of the trilogy, but about a seemingly not too significant side character. So much like GRRM, Rothfuss is also doing the whole, 'not finish up the series but rather writing other projects that add to the world creation without having to come up with an ending'
when a fan theory is lightyears ahead of the screenwriters of the show :/
interesting theory, i was just wondering why it was so important for Bran to push Sam telling the truth to Jon, just before the battle and for what reason? So far it was pointless if they dont reveal something in the episodes left.
On May 02 2019 15:18 Liquid`Drone wrote:
lol yeah I had that same thing happen with the name of the wind and the wise man's fear. I liked both those a lot. (Stormwind archives more, though, but the kingkiller chronicles was what made me interested in fantasy again. )
Only I went one step further and attempting to buy the third book, I instead bought some real silly book called the slow regard of silent things, which isn't part of the trilogy, but about a seemingly not too significant side character. So much like GRRM, Rothfuss is also doing the whole, 'not finish up the series but rather writing other projects that add to the world creation without having to come up with an ending'
I was so excited for it too because I had just read the first of the Book of the New Sun series (Shadow of the Torturer) and HATED it. Plot goes nowhere, universe isn't compelling, characters are boring. Then I find a book I absolutely love and it's TBA because the author wants to put a prequel to the story on tv, sigh.
Oh well, thanks for the indirect recommendation on Stormwind, I'll check those out after I finish Wise Man's Fear.
NewbSaibot: 18 TIMES THE SPEED OF LIGHT. Because FUCK YOU, Daut
On May 02 2019 22:35 Spitfiree wrote:
best review of Ep 3
:D
good video on the logical errors around the episode, while i agree on most of them the guy is utterly pissed obviously - the episode had its strenghts
p.s I have my hopes again, after reading that Maisie Williams quote at the end, i think there is about 10-15% chance for something good to unfold out of the last 3 episodes. That episode 3 might be just a trick for what is it to come... i want my 3 outer to come plz.
United States. Apr 30 2019 16:49. Posts 8955
