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ClouD87   Italy. May 08 2017 00:29. Posts 522
Hey guys. I'm in a weird staking situation and I would greatly appreciate your honest feedback.

It started when a trustworthy friend of mine suggested me to play on a chinese poker app. He told me he knows a guy who does staking deals and he was looking for players. I already knew action was going on these mobile phone apps at high stakes but I didn't want to play with my own money because I was warned of the high possibility of some cheating going on. My friend told me np you are getting full staking you don't need to put your money on the line.

After that I talked to the staking guy and he said it was full staking plus Make Up (which, as I was explained, meant that if I lost money along my run I would need to make it again before receiving further payments). Deal is he gives me 50% of the money during first week trial period, and if we are both satisfied I get 65% of my winnings when I play afterwards. I play first week very few hands, win something like 11k$ (So i get a bit less than 5.5k$), he pays me in bitcoins, everything is fine.

Right after the test week I start playing and I notice weird things going on. I get herocalled in impossible spots and I start lagging and disconnecting like crazy, also during hands that I might have won (you only have 15 seconds to make a move, if you lag you just auto fold even if you have the nuts). I am confident and my previous poker results testify my abilities of making money against recreationals, but I am either having a really bad run or I am not capable of beating these chinese recreationals or I'm getting scammed in some way. Even if it wasn't for the weirdest hero calls the real problem is the fact I get lag spikes very often and I don't get to play the hands I want to. I realize I can't win playing poker in this environment, but I still decided to take a break and come back after a week and see if the lag goes away...

I come back after a week and lag got even worse. App is still unplayable and I still get herocalled with utter garbage hands everytime I bluff in a big pot. At this point I'm down between 7k and 10k (without including test week), which is not much but I simply don't think I can make money in this condition. So I just message my friend and the staking guy explaining the lag situation and they both say I can't pull back because I need to make up the money I lost before going out of the agreement. Problem is I most likely can't win with these issues so if I keep playing I will just lose even more.

At this point I just want to get away from this situation before possibly losing more money. Here comes the part that confuses me: my friend says that I can't pull out before I remake the money. I tell him that I am probably going to lose money if I keep playing, then he further tries to convince me to play more. We go back and forth saying the same thing a couple more times until I make sure he understands I'm not playing on these chinese apps again.
So I tell him I'll just give the staker the money I won during the trial week and not play again to avoid losing his money. My friend says that I have to give the staker back all money I lost at the tables. I won 5k during trial period, lost between 7k and 10k afterwards, so basically he says I have to give him 2k-5k (or whatever the difference is) out of my own pocket to pull out.

Now I'm super confused. If I have to pay for the losses what's the point of the staking? I was playing nl3k deep with huge antes (which is beyond my bankroll capabilities atm) and if I lose I have to take the money out of my own pocket, but if I win I have to give 35% of the profit to the guy. How is this regarded as full staking? I would have never played these games with my own money and I wasn't told this when we talked about the staking. My friend says that if I don't give the 2-5k to the guy I'm basically scamming him and he further tries to convince me to play more on chinese apps.

I still have to talk to the staking guy, and before talking to him I'd like to get some more opinions before we get in a debate on whether I should give him the lost money or not. I just think the chinese apps are shady and I definitely can't play with the lag, and also if I have to pay for all the lost money I don't understand how he could call our deal full staking.

I will accept any suggestion, thanks in advance

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 Last edit: 08/05/2017 00:29

goose58   United States. May 08 2017 01:24. Posts 869

Buyer beware. Sounds like all of you fucked up. Due diligence. Don't play high stakes poker on someone else's dime on weird chinese apps. They might be scamming you or maybe it's bad luck. Get out ASAP, pay back your profits (or whatever you think is fair) and walk away. Don't give them any money you earned elsewhere. If they try to coerce you or manipulate you, tell them to fuck off and consider your personal safety...


Nitewin   United States. May 08 2017 01:48. Posts 909

You should have made clear what the terms of the staking deal was. If it wasn't discussed, what would be fair is that the staker eats the same % he was taking. So if you lost 10k, he would be responsible for 3.5k of it since he was taking 35% when you won.

Or you can just tell them to fuck off if your liability wasn't discussed at the start of the deal. And if they really do threaten you with real life serious shit... just pay them the money. A couple grand ain't worth risking your well-being over. Definitely stop playing now though, or ask them to stake you on stars where you can make back what you lost.


careface_   Canada. May 08 2017 03:38. Posts 784

You made 11k in the first week, you lost something like 10k in the second week,

you don't owe him shit, he owes you 65% of 1k


(you must payback some since you got paid too much), but deal ends +1k, imo

It isn't really called makeup in CG staking, I mean, you normally book a deal for X months, and you are up or you are down and the deal ends. Then you remake a deal if you want, if you didn't make much money, the terms will be reajusted, if you lost money, then you might make 30% instead of 65% or the backer might just not want to deal with you,


In your case, it's nice, the backer doesn't seem to have any risk! Freeroll 35% and obligates you to play if you are down!

But this is poker, gtfo of this deal, like you said, because of lag/conditions, what if you never win again because of disconnects etc.




hellokittery   United States. May 08 2017 09:13. Posts 1398

There's talk of a lot of collusion/cheating in those games. May want to reconsider your relationship with these people.


Spitfiree   Bulgaria. May 08 2017 12:21. Posts 7812

I'm taking my share of the trial week and then tell them to fuck off... you are way too good to them even giving back money thats not theirs to begin with.

This is a stake , not a loan and unless you guys decided on a particualr amount of time you d be staked, which doesn't seem the case, they can fuck off?

 Last edit: 08/05/2017 12:22

Nazgul    Netherlands. May 08 2017 12:28. Posts 7058

The risk here is that you could play for a year and be $100K and continue to keep playing. The backer then has to make a decision to eat his $100K loss or keep pumping money into what might be a losing deal. Normally stepping away while you are in makeup after a couple weeks absolutely is not appropriate and paying the amount you're in makeup for is fair. Keep in mind that when you divide the winnings you are resetting the deal. This is typically an advantage for you as the player and not the backer. The most obvious way of explaining that is that you were pretty much break even over two weeks and already received $5.5K. If you had kept playing as a losing player then you still had your $5.5K in your pocket, which is why splitting the profits early is advantageous to the player. To agree to this upside for yourself, but then to want to step out of the deal by just pretending like the split never happened, is at the very least a stretch of how the mechanics of such a deal would work under normal conditions.

Careface is suggesting to treat it like the split never happened, but you got the upside of the split and it did happen and it reset the deal as if the first portion had not happened.

Regardless to me there is enough indication here to step outside of the regular rational and work to a solution for both sides that isn't exactly by the book. These are exceptional circumstances and it is not like you are out to get them. If I was your backer I would agree to take the $5.5K and be happy with that. I've seen players step away in makeup without being willing to pay back earlier winnings, and I've seen players who knew they had to honor makeup till they got out of it. If you have not agreed to a minimum amount of hands you need to play then your deal will just sit in $10K makeup forever when you decide not to play. In the end your backer still breaks even with the $5.5K in a situation where his player thinks he can't win with a risk of continously losing over time.

p.s. The way you describe the lag does not sound like that is part of the scam. It's happening constantly and barely makes it playable, which does not promote someone sticking around to lose more.


  On May 08 2017 11:21 Spitfiree wrote:
I'm taking my share of the trial week and then tell them to fuck off... you are way too good to them even giving back money thats not theirs to begin with.

This is a stake , not a loan and unless you guys decided on a particualr amount of time you d be staked, which doesn't seem the case, they can fuck off?


It's a stake meaning you can't just quit when you're down. Nobody would stake anyone then. You're right that it's not a loan, but you can't quit a stake whenever you want. He wants to quit after a week of losses, which changes everything. You would have a point if the backer wanted to quit and was asking for his money back. He's not doing that.

You almost twin-caracked his AK - JonnyCosmoLast edit: 08/05/2017 12:32

Spitfiree   Bulgaria. May 08 2017 12:56. Posts 7812

I agree, but they didn't set up any details regarding timelines. If they did, then its OP's fuck up. It's the staker that sets up such details, not the one taking the stake. Otherwise, what would be the fair amount of time to play before bailing on the deal if you don't like it? Are 6 months fair? Or 6 years? OP has no obligations if none are foreknowingly agreed upon. If an X amount of time was set up and OP broke it, then he should just give up all of his profits as well.

There s basically 2 fundamental things to agree upon before making a stake:
-How are profits distributed
-For what amount of time is it

Everything else revolves around those two

 Last edit: 08/05/2017 12:56

Nazgul    Netherlands. May 08 2017 13:16. Posts 7058

It's pretty standard stuff to my knowledge to not have timelines and just keep the deal running while in makeup. Plenty of staking deals do go for five+ years (live tournament deals mainly) until a backer just gives up. I speak from experience on that one unfortunately. At least on my end I have done dozens if not hundreds of staking deals with makeup and ending times were rare and I completely disagree with what you are saying which is that you should feel free to walk if the ending time has not been discussed. I can tell you that if you do 50/50 deals that run for a month, or several months, or you give the player in makeup an out after a year; it is impossible as a backer to make money. Losing players will just wait out the timeframe and winning players bail after winning a bunch. I would go as far as to say there's a clear implication to the term makeup that you play until you reach a profit, unless specifically mentioned otherwise.

You almost twin-caracked his AK - JonnyCosmoLast edit: 08/05/2017 13:36

ClouD87   Italy. May 08 2017 15:24. Posts 522

Thanks for the input guys. My position so far is that since I'm pulling out of the staking due to lag problems and possible cheating I think I at least owe the staker the cut I made during the test week. I don't want him to lose money if possible and I think just taking away the 5.5k would not be in line with how I do things.
Also I wouldn't want to keep playing anyway if they expect me to pull money out of my own pocket. First off because this was never agreed on, and also because then they are not staking me but I'm basically playing with my own bankroll.
If I was dishonest I could just play the highest stakes available and see how it goes and try to make up for the current losses short term and see if I can make a profit, but there's no way I'm going to do that with anyone's money.

The peculiar thing about this situation is that lag problems gradually got worse (I have a really good connection, this just appens on the apps) and I'm not playing on a safe/verifiable platform. If i was getting staked on a poker site or for live cash/MTT I think randomly pulling out would be a really bad move, but here I'm basically more worried about losing staker's money and avoid any future discussions or possible trouble with the guy.

 Last edit: 08/05/2017 15:26

Spitfiree   Bulgaria. May 08 2017 21:35. Posts 7812

The irony is, you are most likely taking the best way regarding your staker's money, while he pushes you to lose his money. And the bigger irony is, he most likely wont be grateful for that.


@Nazgul From my experience regarding cash games, a minimum amount of hands per month plus amount of months is always set beforehand and if a withdraw is made its towards both ends. That way no one can abuse the other party, the downside is - that hurts the bankroll. I do understand your method when it comes to tournaments. Variance there is terrible and staking periods are longer therefore flexibility is required, I guess. I see no reason to conduct business that way for cash games though


handbanana21   United States. May 08 2017 21:47. Posts 2991

the server disconnects are really common. Ive noticed they bunch around similar times of the day. you said you're down 7-10k playing nl3k? So you're down around 3bi?

Also regarding the stake, once you cashout then theres a new deal. He owes u 35% of the losses on your new deal before u quit. Dont let him scam you

 Last edit: 08/05/2017 21:50

morph1   Sierra Leone. May 08 2017 23:03. Posts 2351

check on 2p2, one of midstakes regs lost a lot there and is 100% sure he was playing vs super users and colluders

Always Look On The Bright Side of Life 

gawdawaful   Canada. May 09 2017 00:15. Posts 8798

you have link morph?

Im only good at poker when I run good 

K40Cheddar   United States. May 09 2017 01:41. Posts 2139

this is why i dont trust people

GG 

MARSHALL28   United States. May 09 2017 02:05. Posts 1895

There's other ways to mitigate the lag. You should look into those.

This deal you have is a very good one and would not be something I'd be trying to get out of.

You do owe them the money though. You agreed to play until you were back in profit, you're not in profit. If I were in your situation and was dead set against playing again, I would pay the guy the money I lost and be done with it. I'm not sure anybody else would want to enter into any other kind of deal with you if you don't pay it.

Lots of people play on these sites and are able to do it without much issue. Do some research.


ClouD87   Italy. May 09 2017 04:39. Posts 522


  On May 09 2017 01:05 MARSHALL28 wrote:
You do owe them the money though. You agreed to play until you were back in profit, you're not in profit. If I were in your situation and was dead set against playing again, I would pay the guy the money I lost and be done with it.


If this is the case, how do you think I should pay him? Would you consider the fact that I did +11k first week and if I give him back my share we are even or do you think it's more reasonable to pay 7-10k afterwards as if first week is not part of the net profit we are looking at?


MARSHALL28   United States. May 09 2017 05:07. Posts 1895

I'm not sure. I'd try to reason with the guy say you want to get this cleared up and make him an offer. Don't give him more than he's asking for. If he only wants 2-5k sounds like you will have at least a bit of profit still which is nice.

If it were me, I'd stick out and keep playing though, it sounds like a pretty sweet situation and you should be stoked to have that deal.


ClouD87   Italy. May 09 2017 05:15. Posts 522


  On May 09 2017 04:07 MARSHALL28 wrote:
I'm not sure. I'd try to reason with the guy say you want to get this cleared up and make him an offer. Don't give him more than he's asking for. If he only wants 2-5k sounds like you will have at least a bit of profit still which is nice.

If it were me, I'd stick out and keep playing though, it sounds like a pretty sweet situation and you should be stoked to have that deal.



There are people offering better deals, and I really think I'm being cheated some way or another. I don't like to lose other people's money in these conditions :


Trav94   Canada. May 09 2017 22:29. Posts 1658

I feel like this friend of yours might not have your best interest in mind


 
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