On July 13 2021 06:21 RiKD wrote:
To call Obrador a "fucked up, old school, Latin American Left" is one thing versus calling him a "leftist." Leftists are trying to get rid of unfairness and injustice and fight for equality and egalitarianism.
This is such a child-like true scottsman fallacy.
Yeah no bad people can be leftists since leftists fight for justice lol, I suppose Stalin, Mao, and all the long list of leftist dictators in the past weren't also leftist, we've all been decieved.
Just take the L, Obrador is a text book leftist, he self identifies as one, so does his party, so does his policy and rethoric, if you are going to argue against it make a congruent argument.
Morena's ideology will always be hypocritical and destined to fail in the constructs of what Obrador is doing. It is just re-branded "PARTY of the Democratic Revolution," "HOPE for México."
Electoral politics do not lead to revolution. HOPE is the oldest form of copium for apes with developed brains.
There are virtually no leftists in electoral politics. At least not in USA politics. And, even so leftist is such a large umbrella. Which is why I didn't go to Bread-Tube seeking out definitions for leftist and left-wing but instead I went to Google. Some of these people on the left are Leninist-Marxists. They probably love the idea of Obrador forming a Vanguard Party and blowing up people in helicopters so that the proletariat can think that things are improving in some way. I don't like when people categorizing leftist in that way but the truth is that maybe other people do and I can not help it. I am closer in line with principles of anarchism. I don't like electoral politics, I certainly don't like dictators, and I certainly don't like totalitarian rulers. I don't go around calling Hitler a right-winger... I call him a fascist. A genocidal fascist. There sometimes is a difference between a Neo-Con and a fascist. I have a friend who is a neo-con. He is a bit fucking whacky but he has a good heart and is not a fascist. Fascists could (and would) persuade him to turn fash but I am saying I don't think he is currently a fash at all.
On June 06 2021 12:04 RiKD wrote:
I see that it is on me to make a case for Obrador not being a leftist. It may come down to Toe-may-toe vs Toe-mah-toe semantically. I am sure he is left of Biden but that is an easy task. When I think of leftists I think of Bread-tube but that doesn't mean I am even the biggest fan of that. Certainly better than shit-lib, neo-lib, neo-con, neo-fash....
If you are up for it I would be interested in details of Obrador corruption.
I did not mean to insinuate that the CIA shot down the helicopter in this case just that they created the diabolical playbook in Latin America. It's up there with give brutal coups all the moniez and backing and then stick the everyday citizen with the bill as the dictators launder all of the fed fiat into off-shore accounts. I was shocked at the string of "accidents" in air travel for people the USA did not like in Latin America from say 1950s up until the USA realized there were better ways to do things in regards to expected value to Power disregarding any sort of fairness. Again, I am not saying the CIA blew up the helicopter just that Obrador is diabolical for using plays out of a diabolical (CIA) playbook. Blah blah blah, allegedly, blah blah blah. I would wager a lot that at some point there was implicit knowledge and agreement of the plan. I am picturing some run down empty restaurant off the beaten path with Obrador eating chilaquiles with A Guy. At some point the topic comes up and Obrador discreetly nods to affirm ending someone's life.... Although, I have been watching way too much Breaking Bad recently and am getting carried away.
Lol please go on explaining how he isn't a leftist.
Actually 2 days ago he said: The middle class is aspirationist, trying to triumph at all cost and egotistical and hypocrites because they go to church every sunday. He double down today, he said he will pull the lower class to the middle class but with different values than the current one, with fraternal values, he also rants about "Neoliberals" every single day (he talks for 3 hours on TV every fucking morning).
He is oldschool left, so that means no radfem queer intersectional bullshit, these positions arent popular to indigenous or low-class people in latinamerica as I've tried to explain to Loco before.
About his corruption:
- His brother has been caught on tape recieving bribes in his name twice, his brother also talksa about "the black book" where they record all these bribes to Obrador, no criminal prosecution or anything has happened about it.
- His right hand and a politician in his party close to him (Carlos Imas) were caugh on tape recieving literal bags of money, Imas was sentenced to 3 years, but the sentence was later changed to a fine of 5k dollars and banned from public service, the wife of this guy is Obrador's close ally in the same party and the current mayor of Mexico City.
- An aid of him was also caugh on tape recieving a bag of money for him, no case was opened and she is no a council-woman.
- Obrador current right hand, Manuel Bartlett is the mexican Dick Cheyney, corrupt as fuck and can't go to the US because of drug traffiquing charges, and he is the well known orchestrator of the biggest voting fraud in Mexico's city (If you have seen Narco's Mexico in Netflix, that fraud).
- He was caugh on tape walking to "El Chapo's" mother's car and shaking her hand telling her that he recieved her letter, when he was questioned about it, he said he can't deny shaking hands with an old lady.
- He attended Ovidio Guzman's birthday (Chapo's son and heir of the Cartel)
- The military captured Ovidio Guzman after a gruesome battle in Culiacán dozens of people dead, Obrador immediatly released him, no charges, no judge order, he just ordered his release, [b]this would be like the president of Colombia having dinner with Escobar's family and releasing him when captured and you want evidence of corruption lol'/b]
Here are some links for you to enjoy:
His brother's bribes:
Carlos Imas bribes:
War in Culiacan amidst Ovidio's capture:
Ovidio captured, calling his men to stop the attack on the city.
Obrador shaking el Chapo's mother hand telling her that he got her letter at Ovidio's birthday.
It's just weird that he can rant and rave for 3 hours a day about neo-liberals and then reach the level of corruption he has probably reached. There is a lot to un-pack here.
There's really nothing weird about it, and not much to unpack. it's completely standard for any government to blame anyone but themselves, and any propagandist would recognize that there is a lot of truth towards neoliberalism being at fault for a lot of problems and use that to shift all responsibility towards it. Apply this principle to every government. Pretty much every government in the world does it. Is North Korea wrong when they blame the American Imperialists? Well, America did atrocious things in the Korean war, so the government is partially right, and that's what makes it good propaganda. It's not hard to recognize this and a grade schooler can understand geopolitics at this level.
You should probably quote my entire quote. It is clear that I understand propaganda and boogey-man'ism.
What takes me more to unpack is the level of manipulation. On all fronts. Obrador is a ball of lightning manipulation. Manipulation is probably the #1 trait of any hierarchal ruler. How to manipulate and still be loved, or respected, or feared. I should re-read The Prince. I remember reading it and being like "fuck that's true but I don't like how it makes me feel" and threw it in the trash. That's some Dark Arts shit. If Machiavelli could write that and all these people are reading it it is some Dark Arts shit is all I am saying. I wish the only Prince we all knew was the singer-songwriter, and multi-instrumentalist from Minneapolis, MN.
On June 06 2021 12:04 RiKD wrote:
I see that it is on me to make a case for Obrador not being a leftist. It may come down to Toe-may-toe vs Toe-mah-toe semantically. I am sure he is left of Biden but that is an easy task. When I think of leftists I think of Bread-tube but that doesn't mean I am even the biggest fan of that. Certainly better than shit-lib, neo-lib, neo-con, neo-fash....
If you are up for it I would be interested in details of Obrador corruption.
I did not mean to insinuate that the CIA shot down the helicopter in this case just that they created the diabolical playbook in Latin America. It's up there with give brutal coups all the moniez and backing and then stick the everyday citizen with the bill as the dictators launder all of the fed fiat into off-shore accounts. I was shocked at the string of "accidents" in air travel for people the USA did not like in Latin America from say 1950s up until the USA realized there were better ways to do things in regards to expected value to Power disregarding any sort of fairness. Again, I am not saying the CIA blew up the helicopter just that Obrador is diabolical for using plays out of a diabolical (CIA) playbook. Blah blah blah, allegedly, blah blah blah. I would wager a lot that at some point there was implicit knowledge and agreement of the plan. I am picturing some run down empty restaurant off the beaten path with Obrador eating chilaquiles with A Guy. At some point the topic comes up and Obrador discreetly nods to affirm ending someone's life.... Although, I have been watching way too much Breaking Bad recently and am getting carried away.
Lol please go on explaining how he isn't a leftist.
Actually 2 days ago he said: The middle class is aspirationist, trying to triumph at all cost and egotistical and hypocrites because they go to church every sunday. He double down today, he said he will pull the lower class to the middle class but with different values than the current one, with fraternal values, he also rants about "Neoliberals" every single day (he talks for 3 hours on TV every fucking morning).
He is oldschool left, so that means no radfem queer intersectional bullshit, these positions arent popular to indigenous or low-class people in latinamerica as I've tried to explain to Loco before.
About his corruption:
- His brother has been caught on tape recieving bribes in his name twice, his brother also talksa about "the black book" where they record all these bribes to Obrador, no criminal prosecution or anything has happened about it.
- His right hand and a politician in his party close to him (Carlos Imas) were caugh on tape recieving literal bags of money, Imas was sentenced to 3 years, but the sentence was later changed to a fine of 5k dollars and banned from public service, the wife of this guy is Obrador's close ally in the same party and the current mayor of Mexico City.
- An aid of him was also caugh on tape recieving a bag of money for him, no case was opened and she is no a council-woman.
- Obrador current right hand, Manuel Bartlett is the mexican Dick Cheyney, corrupt as fuck and can't go to the US because of drug traffiquing charges, and he is the well known orchestrator of the biggest voting fraud in Mexico's city (If you have seen Narco's Mexico in Netflix, that fraud).
- He was caugh on tape walking to "El Chapo's" mother's car and shaking her hand telling her that he recieved her letter, when he was questioned about it, he said he can't deny shaking hands with an old lady.
- He attended Ovidio Guzman's birthday (Chapo's son and heir of the Cartel)
- The military captured Ovidio Guzman after a gruesome battle in Culiacán dozens of people dead, Obrador immediatly released him, no charges, no judge order, he just ordered his release, [b]this would be like the president of Colombia having dinner with Escobar's family and releasing him when captured and you want evidence of corruption lol'/b]
Here are some links for you to enjoy:
His brother's bribes:
Carlos Imas bribes:
War in Culiacan amidst Ovidio's capture:
Ovidio captured, calling his men to stop the attack on the city.
Obrador shaking el Chapo's mother hand telling her that he got her letter at Ovidio's birthday.
It's just weird that he can rant and rave for 3 hours a day about neo-liberals and then reach the level of corruption he has probably reached. There is a lot to un-pack here.
There's really nothing weird about it, and not much to unpack. it's completely standard for any government to blame anyone but themselves, and any propagandist would recognize that there is a lot of truth towards neoliberalism being at fault for a lot of problems and use that to shift all responsibility towards it. Apply this principle to every government. Pretty much every government in the world does it. Is North Korea wrong when they blame the American Imperialists? Well, America did atrocious things in the Korean war, so the government is partially right, and that's what makes it good propaganda. It's not hard to recognize this and a grade schooler can understand geopolitics at this level.
LOL
I do agree with you anyway that a grade schooler can understand geopolitics at that level
It seems to be not very profitable in the long run to play those kind of hands. - Gus Hansen
Southafrica is a fucking mess, pretty wild to see a slow zimbawefication in real time.
Cuban's totalitarian government just shut down the internet to prevent information about the uprising leaving the Island.
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hiems United States. Jul 15 2021 14:54. Posts 2979
To be fair about Cuba I don't think along the lines of people protest against Cuba = gotcha populism as much as people protest in Colombia = gotcha neoliberalism. Honestly I think alot of the time you are just dealing with mobs that don't necessarily know what's what. It's similar to the USA most ppl really shouldn't be voting on the count of being dumb.
I don't know much about the Cuban situation but there's a good chance these ppl would have protested against a govt like Colombia's. Maybe some can further clarify I don't know much at all about Cuba.
To an extent I think these are just Latin America/Second/Third world problems in general. The whole living on 350/month thing is something that will exist in all of these countries regardless of government.
That being said I don't think the right has some sort of underground antifa type covert agents planting propaganda instigating protests...i feel like this was likely the case in Colombia but I doubt that is the case here.
I beat Loco!!! [img]https://i.imgur.com/wkwWj2d.png[/img]
There's a big difference between leftists protesting in a free democracy than people protesting an actual dictatorship, for example ANTIFA burning down downtown Portland for whatever reason is not comparable to lets say a protest in North Korea because if people are willing to truly risk their lives against a totalitarian regime you know shit is bad.
I do know about Cuba and its one of the saddest places you can be, not because its poor since there are many other poor places, but because you can see it was once rich and is now in decay, a bit like Detroit but worse because the decay has been slower and much longer and it isn't filled with societal pariahs and violence, but by really nice goo hearted people and you can't help but wonder what a paradise it could have been if only it wasn't destroyed by a leftist dictatorship.
Are you seriously saying Cuba was a good country to live before the communist revolution? I've been to Cuba and I've seen how shitty it is - I'm not defending the Castro regime(s) here - but it was no better for the Cuban people during Batista. Sure, you just had some regions where wealthy Americans liked to frequent, but as a tourist, we didn't have any problems back in 2005 either.
The USA is not a free democracy. The USA is a corporate oligarchy. Corporations are totalitarian regimes. Now, in the USA there are certainly negotiations that take place between the totalitarian rulers and the corrupted elected officials and everyone in the USA to a point. All of these hierarchal rulers do a great job at maintaining the facade that the USA is a "free democracy" and their wealth and power demands it but no the USA is not a free democracy. The people do not actually have much leverage because we are so atomized and docile. I don't even think it's mostly because they are scared the government will kill them. The government is pretty good about that these days for the same reason you (Baal) say that tourists don't have to be afraid of getting killed by the cartels. The biggest reason is that most people think that if they Win at capatalism they will be happy. Well, happy is a shitty goal and no most are not going to Win. In fact, if it continues how it is going we are all likely going to die. Yeah, I know we are all for sure going to die at some point but what I mean is that Miss Anthropocene is going to get us all and it is not going to be pretty.
–––
I can't really speak on what a paradise Cuba would have been and to what level that was destroyed by Castro.
There are some things that are quite troubling about Castro's claims that Cuba was some communist wonderland though (or that he wasn't a dictator).
#1 – Castro was worth probably $1 billy+ in USD currency...
#2 – Castro bragged about sleeping with 35,000 women... He would have women brought over whenever he wanted to bust a nut. It just sounds like a gross situation. Maybe there was consent or maybe there wasn't... He was a charismatic revolutionary so there is no doubt some women's panties were getting wet but like what?
#3 – Castro would just travel around Cuba staying in mansions. I mean I am kind of pissed if Joe Biden does that shit but Joe Biden is an insufferable neo-liberal. Castro was supposed to be el Hombre communiste. Castro knew this and he still didn't give a fuck. I'm not expecting Biden to stay in Hampton Inns just as I am not expecting Castro to live in a shack but jesus having a mansion to stay in in every province where women are brought to your lair is fucking terrible period let alone if Castro was trying to be an anti-empire communist God.
At least when David Choe binked $300 milly USD and was having women come over to his place to wake him up with double blow jobs these were prostitutes that had a good relationship with him. In Castro's case, I wonder if some communist bureaucrats were involved with paperwork to summon women out of their sleep and their beds in the morning and coerced into signing non-disclosure agreements so that Castro could face fuck them without consent in his sex lair...
In communist Cuba everyone needs a job...
I guess a blow job is better than no job (Kanye West)
(I wanted to do that joke without biting Kanye but it fits so well)
Last edit: 16/07/2021 16:36
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hiems United States. Jul 16 2021 20:21. Posts 2979
On July 16 2021 02:21 Baalim wrote:
There's a big difference between leftists protesting in a free democracy than people protesting an actual dictatorship, for example ANTIFA burning down downtown Portland for whatever reason is not comparable to lets say a protest in North Korea because if people are willing to truly risk their lives against a totalitarian regime you know shit is bad.
I do know about Cuba and its one of the saddest places you can be, not because its poor since there are many other poor places, but because you can see it was once rich and is now in decay, a bit like Detroit but worse because the decay has been slower and much longer and it isn't filled with societal pariahs and violence, but by really nice goo hearted people and you can't help but wonder what a paradise it could have been if only it wasn't destroyed by a leftist dictatorship.
Hm yeah I don't know much about Cuba tbh. Hopefully get around to learning more about it.
I beat Loco!!! [img]https://i.imgur.com/wkwWj2d.png[/img]
On July 16 2021 12:57 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Are you seriously saying Cuba was a good country to live before the communist revolution? I've been to Cuba and I've seen how shitty it is - I'm not defending the Castro regime(s) here - but it was no better for the Cuban people during Batista. Sure, you just had some regions where wealthy Americans liked to frequent, but as a tourist, we didn't have any problems back in 2005 either.
No, what I'm talking about is the time-machine effect you get when you go to cuba, its as if some apocalyptic nuclear war happened in the 1950s and nothing was developed after that, I dont think any other place in the world is like that.
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Santafairy Korea (South). Jul 17 2021 10:41. Posts 2227
On July 16 2021 12:57 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Are you seriously saying Cuba was a good country to live before the communist revolution? I've been to Cuba and I've seen how shitty it is - I'm not defending the Castro regime(s) here - but it was no better for the Cuban people during Batista. Sure, you just had some regions where wealthy Americans liked to frequent, but as a tourist, we didn't have any problems back in 2005 either.
No, what I'm talking about is the time-machine effect you get when you go to cuba, its as if some apocalyptic nuclear war happened in the 1950s and nothing was developed after that, I dont think any other place in the world is like that.
hmm let's think real fuckin hard about this one
It seems to be not very profitable in the long run to play those kind of hands. - Gus Hansen
On July 16 2021 12:57 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Are you seriously saying Cuba was a good country to live before the communist revolution? I've been to Cuba and I've seen how shitty it is - I'm not defending the Castro regime(s) here - but it was no better for the Cuban people during Batista. Sure, you just had some regions where wealthy Americans liked to frequent, but as a tourist, we didn't have any problems back in 2005 either.
No, what I'm talking about is the time-machine effect you get when you go to cuba, its as if some apocalyptic nuclear war happened in the 1950s and nothing was developed after that, I dont think any other place in the world is like that.
Haha, we took cabs a couple times. Once the car was from 1929 (but worked just fine), another car had to stop twice in 30 minutes, because the driver had to stop and pick up parts of the car that fell off. Real cartoon shit.
Anyway though (again, not defending the castro regime!) - it's hard to really say to what degree this particular aspect is caused by 'cuba' rather than 'american embargo opposed by 184 countries (iirc) in the UN and backed by only US and Israel'. Basically, Cuba had a pretty brutal US-supported dictator, and they undertook a revolution with considerable public support, they had some genuine successes with both health care and education (much better trajectory at providing either of those during the 60s,70s and 80s than comparable latam countries). Then because US tries to counter the revolution, bay of pigs happens, Cuba turns to Soviet for aid and trade, and then - after the Soviet union collapsed - poverty increases significantly and progress is completely halted. This happens to virtually every country to choose the communist side after the Soviet Union collapsed.
Like, compare Cuba and Costa Rica from 1960 until 1990, and it's pretty similar - it's only after 1990 that Cuban development really fell behind.
Basically I'm not really disagreeing with your assessment on Cuba, just placing a fair amount of blame on an american embargo that is basically a relic from the cold war / US desire to control the Americas.
I think the current protests seem to indicate that the regime has lost much of the public support they actually had. Like, I'm by no means saying that Cubans have enjoyed freedom of speech or other liberal freedoms considered essential to most of us, and I witnessed their material scarcity first hand - but when my family went there, it also did not feel totalitarian. It might have attempted to be, but the control exerted on the population did not stop them from talking mild shit about Fidel to us - a group of random tourists they met on the street. The Cubans I talked to were also remarkably educated (I'm certain only speaking with the ones who knew English gives me a fair amount of selection bias here), and knew much about the outside world - including how poor of a country Cuba was.
I hope they can achieve positive social changes - but I do want these to come from within, and not be some United Fruit Company bullshit from before, though.
lol POKER
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hiems United States. Jul 17 2021 19:04. Posts 2979
I think it's fair to say LiquidDrone is a dumb vagina.
User was warned for this post.
I beat Loco!!! [img]https://i.imgur.com/wkwWj2d.png[/img]
On July 16 2021 12:57 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Are you seriously saying Cuba was a good country to live before the communist revolution? I've been to Cuba and I've seen how shitty it is - I'm not defending the Castro regime(s) here - but it was no better for the Cuban people during Batista. Sure, you just had some regions where wealthy Americans liked to frequent, but as a tourist, we didn't have any problems back in 2005 either.
No, what I'm talking about is the time-machine effect you get when you go to cuba, its as if some apocalyptic nuclear war happened in the 1950s and nothing was developed after that, I dont think any other place in the world is like that.
Haha, we took cabs a couple times. Once the car was from 1929 (but worked just fine), another car had to stop twice in 30 minutes, because the driver had to stop and pick up parts of the car that fell off. Real cartoon shit.
Anyway though (again, not defending the castro regime!) - it's hard to really say to what degree this particular aspect is caused by 'cuba' rather than 'american embargo opposed by 184 countries (iirc) in the UN and backed by only US and Israel'. Basically, Cuba had a pretty brutal US-supported dictator, and they undertook a revolution with considerable public support, they had some genuine successes with both health care and education (much better trajectory at providing either of those during the 60s,70s and 80s than comparable latam countries). Then because US tries to counter the revolution, bay of pigs happens, Cuba turns to Soviet for aid and trade, and then - after the Soviet union collapsed - poverty increases significantly and progress is completely halted. This happens to virtually every country to choose the communist side after the Soviet Union collapsed.
Like, compare Cuba and Costa Rica from 1960 until 1990, and it's pretty similar - it's only after 1990 that Cuban development really fell behind.
Basically I'm not really disagreeing with your assessment on Cuba, just placing a fair amount of blame on an american embargo that is basically a relic from the cold war / US desire to control the Americas.
I think the current protests seem to indicate that the regime has lost much of the public support they actually had. Like, I'm by no means saying that Cubans have enjoyed freedom of speech or other liberal freedoms considered essential to most of us, and I witnessed their material scarcity first hand - but when my family went there, it also did not feel totalitarian. It might have attempted to be, but the control exerted on the population did not stop them from talking mild shit about Fidel to us - a group of random tourists they met on the street. The Cubans I talked to were also remarkably educated (I'm certain only speaking with the ones who knew English gives me a fair amount of selection bias here), and knew much about the outside world - including how poor of a country Cuba was.
I hope they can achieve positive social changes - but I do want these to come from within, and not be some United Fruit Company bullshit from before, though.
The embargo despise its attempt has had little effect with international trade with Cuba, but indeed the Island would be in better shape if it did trade with the US but that's not the reason of its economical demise, but the system itself.
Agreed that government repression is low for a totalitarian regime, it doesn't feel remotely like NK, as you said people can complain with a tourist without repercussions, but its not like they can make demonstrations or make political activism against the regime. I also hope they can find freedom by themselves.
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hiems United States. Jul 20 2021 09:29. Posts 2979
The warning is fair/well deserved.
I don't agree with LiquidDrone, loco, spitfiree, but I will try to not cross any lines.
I beat Loco!!! [img]https://i.imgur.com/wkwWj2d.png[/img]
United States. Jul 13 2021 16:58. Posts 8581
