https://www.liquidpoker.net/


LP international Poland latinoamerica Iceland    Contact            Users: 122 Active, 13 Logged in - Time: 13:08

Strategy talk while at the tables?

New to LiquidPoker? Register here for free!
Forum Index > Main Poker
 1 
  2 
  > 
  Last 
  All 
JohnnyBologna   United States. Aug 30 2016 17:15. Posts 1384

How much of it do you do while at the tables? This involves discussing your hands with the opponent and your thought process and giving thoughts on their thought process.
How much of it is a lie/level/manipulation?

Im starting to not care and might do it more. Because its so boring at the tables and I feel if I open up dialogue for strategy we both will get information but i feel like i would benefit more from it. I know this one guy at the table that is pretty decent and will openly talk strategy with anyone. A lot of the times you will hear his thought process like on all his hands lol. He is geniunly just trying to improve as a player and i think he is getting better than if he werent to do so with other players.

If all the information is out there freely just like in a training website everyone gets stronger but the best players always benefit the most. what do you guys think?

Facebook Twitter
By doing a little bit at a time, a lot can be done 

TianYuan    Korea (South). Aug 30 2016 17:36. Posts 6670

I don't play live, but a really bad player is going to have a relatively bigger gain from being introduced to simple poker concepts than a decent or good player..... So on paper it seems like a bad idea to me.

It's like when you are completely new at something and you learn just 1 simple thing you can do to improve your play, the difference is pretty staggering but when you've played for years you have to really work for a much smaller incremental improvement.

Hm.. Off-suite socks.. 

thewh00sel    United States. Aug 30 2016 18:33. Posts 2716

impossible for the best players to get the most out of it. Best liars and adjusters to those lies maybe. But there's a reason that if your best friend is Phil Galfond and you've never played poker before, his game is going to improve yours hugely and you will do nothing for his except maybe improve his ability to explain his thought process. I talk strat with a few people that I play with on a regular basis, but privately not at the table.

If you can't entertain yourself at the poker table you are missing out on a lot I think. You meet so many people, way more than the average person. A huge part of life is connections. So many people work super hard at building a network just to have the chance to meet someone who can do something to elevate them in some way. If you start to think about each session as a chance to make an impact on the people you play with, you may find yourself with a rare job offer, investment opportunity, contact that opens you up to savings on X Y Z. I didn't really think I had made many contacts outside of poker pros until:
+ I needed my car fixed- Knew a guy who owned several car dealerships
+ Needed a lawyer to deal with a traffic violation- Got it done cheaper and no points on license
+ Needed a lawyer for a potential business deal
+ Needed a reliable commercial real estate agent- got one who did business for someone super successful
+Was offered an investment in a few different business deals that I can't afford (yet)
+Was offered a job in another state as a contractor manager (lol)

And I'm sure if any other significant life events occur I'll have some "lucky" phone number I happen to have from talking to folks at the table. Just some food for thought.

If you can steer the conversation away from strategy it will benefit you, but if someone asks I would say something that's not bullshit if possible, even if it's something like, "I don't like to talk strategy at the tables, Magician never reveals his secrets, Chef can't tell you what's in the secret sauce, etc etc." Anything like that is better than a bullshit answer that makes it obvious that you don't want to talk about what they're talking about without saying it. People would rather hear the truth I think.

On the other hand, if you really think that someone is equal or better than you, and you want to befriend them, then I think it's ok to talk some strategy with them at the table. You want to get to know them, and pick their brain, it can be ok to lower your hourly for one session to do that if it could create a poker contact that you can build on.

A government is the most dangerous threat to man’s rights: it holds a legal monopoly on the use of physical force against legally disarmed victims. - Ayn Rand 

traxamillion   United States. Aug 30 2016 21:30. Posts 10217

I hate strategy talk at the table

Dont educate the fish etc.

I dont get much out of hearing the bad thought processes of the people around me. Might discuss a hand with someone i am cool with outside or something.

Especially at 9 handed tables the people not involved in the convo get free advice and the recs generally dont wanna hear about ranges and math etc. "Nerdy" stuff. Rather talk about life or sports or whatever. I feel like if ur playing the game you dont really need to talk about it too, beyond saying nh or whatever casual banter


TimDawg    United States. Aug 30 2016 22:33. Posts 10144

Just in terms of live, I try to never ever do it while playing...

I think it's an awful precedent to allow it constantly at the table. Nothing tilts me more than when a fish makes a poor play and gets criticized and critiqued on why his/her play was bad and what he/she should've done instead. Sometimes when these situations happen, I just stay quiet and other times I can't help but speak up and tell the person criticizing the fish to STFU

Now more casual situations will inevitably arrive if you play enough live poker, where a player will just ask you a strategic question point blank after a hand. Typically I just try to avoid answering these questions at all but sometimes I will just begrudgingly agree with the player on whatever they are saying whether it is right or wrong thinking. This feels kind've dickish at times but imo you owe it to yourself to not give away this kind of information. You're in all likelihood playing in this live poker game to maximize potential earnings. The positives and negatives are pretty obvious in this facet in regards to giving away strategic information.

There are times when you develop relationships with some players that you constantly are in live games with. If I become closer with certain players and gain a lot of respect for the way they carry themselves and treat others, then I might just throw everything I said earlier out the window and try to be as honest as possible with them in trying to give them strategic advice in some facets. I still will never do this openly while playing at the table but when I am on the phone or in private with that person I will sometimes. These are usually pretty rare circumstances and often times there is some sort of symbiotic relationship going on when this scenario happens.

Kind've going off of what Whoosel posted earlier, just trying to be pretty honest about most things can go a long way and people can't help but respect that over time. Just saying, "I don't like to talk strategy at the table" should usually be enough to avoid talking about these type of things.

TLDR Summary: Do everything you can to not talk strategy at the table!

online bob is actually a pretty smart person, not at all like the creepy fucker that sits in the sofa telling me he does nasty shit to me when im asleep - pinball 

JohnnyBologna   United States. Aug 31 2016 01:36. Posts 1384

Couple more notes. When a player asks you had it after being put to the test, if i like the person i will tell them because its just one hand but if i dont like them i might make up a hand.

The info they get from a couple hands is not going to change their games from novice to anything substantial becuz poker is more than that. The person has to put in the hours and effort to become an overall solid player.

And lets just face it, a live fish will always be a live fish and dont care about strategy talk at the table. Even if they did till the end of earth, there is no helping them because they just have so many damn leaks that are unfixable to be honest. The average to good players still have a somewhat decent concept of the game and have something to contribute to the table.

By doing a little bit at a time, a lot can be done 

JohnnyBologna   United States. Aug 31 2016 15:27. Posts 1384

Phil galfond doesnt think talking strategy will hurt his game enough to the point where he makes video giving his whole entire thought process and strategy plans readily to the interwebz.

The logic behind that is poker is an ever evolving game thats always upping new levels. With an open source like network for all the strategy talk and plethura of info online, eventually there will be an end game level where everyone knows all the logistical aspects of the game, but then this is where i meant the best players will always shine (instead of benefit the most.)
All the innate skills of poker would come into play. Things like hand reading, tilt control, player reading.

Also you guys dont talk about it much and put it off, but bullshitting and lying is part of the game. You gotta needle the fish and other players sometimes and say you woulda went all in with their hand instread you woulda snap folded. And then nod your head to them when you know they are lying about their hands or say something absurd.

This one very solid reg would constantly lie about his hand to tilt other people. Saying he folded second nuts when they show nuts. He of course balances this with some truth too.

So i guess after the hand is over, there are more mind games to played. Thats poker for ya lol.

People lie so much it kinda almost throws you off your game sometimes. I would say beleive about half of what your hear at the tables. Maybe less before you get completely leveled.

By doing a little bit at a time, a lot can be done 

traxamillion   United States. Aug 31 2016 19:21. Posts 10217

Well galfond has a strategy training business. Making a couple general videos isnt going to destroy his expectation. He obviously isnt outlinig his whole PLO strategy and giving everything away. He also plays a more non formulaic opponent dependent strategy than most high stakes players. If hes in a big live game with whales he wont be talking advanced strat right there


casinocasino   Canada. Aug 31 2016 21:12. Posts 3249

I honestly don't care, and I don't care if it upsets others but if I am playing like low to mid stakes live up to like 5/10 the skill difference will be so huge that revealing information wont change anything


casinocasino   Canada. Aug 31 2016 21:22. Posts 3249

And who cares if you educate the fish?

They might become tougher to play, they might enjoy the game more but they will still be recreational players.. I feel people stigmatize the recreational players so much by isolating them from improving, sitting to their direct left, ultimatelly making the game less fun for them, so yeah talk to the fish tell them what they want to hear, be insightful, they aren't stupid but they will never be professionals.


AndrewSong    United States. Aug 31 2016 23:58. Posts 2334

It's not even about educating the fish. Talking advanced game theory promotes playing well for everyone and kills the action. Majority of the VIPs are here for the gamble and promoting strategy aspect of poker makes the game less attractive and fun. What we should be doing is promoting the gamble. I see gang of older asian crew at commerce do this so well even with their broken english making VIP the life of the party and having the game be about gambling. They force the table into a silent agreement to play looser and gamble more at least on the surface, creating a friendlier and more action friendly environment for the VIP. Some of the strategy talking regs don't realize this or choose to be part of and play their ABC headphone wearing anti social poker style thinking everyone sucks and we are just a pile of money bag. They are terrible for the game.


DooMeR   United States. Sep 01 2016 01:29. Posts 8452


  On August 31 2016 22:58 AndrewSong wrote:
It's not even about educating the fish. Talking advanced game theory promotes playing well for everyone and kills the action. Majority of the VIPs are here for the gamble and promoting strategy aspect of poker makes the game less attractive and fun. What we should be doing is promoting the gamble. I see gang of older asian crew at commerce do this so well even with their broken english making VIP the life of the party and having the game be about gambling. They force the table into a silent agreement to play looser and gamble more at least on the surface, creating a friendlier and more action friendly environment for the VIP. Some of the strategy talking regs don't realize this or choose to be part of and play their ABC headphone wearing anti social poker style thinking everyone sucks and we are just a pile of money bag. They are terrible for the game.



^

I just saved a bunch of money on my car insurance, by running away from the scene of an accident. 

casinocasino   Canada. Sep 06 2016 02:11. Posts 3249

those sunglass wearing cash game nit regs are far worse for the game than talking random poker *strategy* (nonesense) with a random person at the table. I've never once heard constructive / "talking advanced game theory" ever, most people are so disillusion with how good they are that anything that comes out of their mouth at the table is hurting both themselves and the players around them... I am just saying that no logical person would ever talk advance game theory


YoMeR   United States. Sep 15 2016 22:55. Posts 12338

I disagree with you casino.

In almost every live game where you even have some huge whales. If there's some intense strategy discussion going on they will be playing their "A" game and feel very uncomfortable to splash around fearing that it'll look "dumb" or "embarrassing"

Whereas on the other hand if people are talking about sports, women, etc. Whatever and having a jolly ol time. The same fish even are much more likely to splash around than in the previous scenario.

Most cases ppl talking strategy at the table is to stroke what's left of their pathetic little egos anyways.

I find that that kind of talk almost always discourages good action. And in turn will cut your longterm hourly in significant ways.

Even if the talk is retarded and is wrong. (hell 95% of the time if i hear it i want to tear my eardrums out) It just discourages gambling...which is exactly what you want no?

eZ Life. 

YoMeR   United States. Sep 15 2016 22:57. Posts 12338

Also the sunglasses cash game nit regs are indeed awful for the game in general since they are the one that berate fish and try to explain to them why they fucked up (whilst being wrong most the time themselves of course).

But often times they are really bad tilt monkeys and 1-2 bad beats will make the game great to off set their shittyness

eZ Life. 

4TM   United States. Sep 17 2016 04:00. Posts 695

Talking strategy can be bad, but it can also have no affect. Berating the fish is 100x worse almost always.


NewbSaibot   United States. Sep 17 2016 18:31. Posts 4744

I pretty much always reaffirm poor strat when fish begin discussing it. Whether some guy jams a low PP aipf to protect his hand or check-calls the nuts on the flop not to slowplay but to make sure the flush doesnt come in on the turn, I always nod and take their side. There have been a couple of times where a particularly chatty solid reg might "discuss" what happened with me if we're sitting next to each other and we can make it private, but it's usually just patting each other on the back agreeing at the absurdity of what we just saw.

listening to edzwoo has made u a nit... *sigh* - Zalfor 

casinocasino   Canada. Sep 17 2016 21:41. Posts 3249

I think that's really subjective.

I highly doubt that anything anybody says will make the whale player much better (How much better?). But lets say supposedly the table talk caused a lull in the dynamics, how can you sure that it impacted the players game?

Even if it did cause him to supposedly splash around a bit less, how long is he going to play better for? Forever? unlikely. He will probably go through a phase and dump his money later. He is not a professional.

And lastly, what is table talk? Everyone has all different opinions on what it means but to me it means nothing but a bunch of gibberish that keeps people in the game longer.



Honestly I am totally on the opposite camp here.. I would much rather the whale/fish be intrigued about how poker is a game of skill, than to think about getting up and gambling/splashing around at the pits.

so yes any kind of talk that can keep the fish/whale engaged is +EV

(when I was playing in the private lives games in LA with the celebrity fishes, they would ask me questions about poker like how they played the hand or if they made the right call/fold and I would give them my genuine answer and it encouraged a positive poker atmosphere where the players were eager to test their skill week after week)

The point I am making is table talk is maybe -EV in the moment but in the long run, in the grand scheme of things its +EV as it encourages people to think about poker and make them return to the table more often.


DooMeR   United States. Sep 17 2016 23:13. Posts 8452

The whale knows that cold 4betting 27o is bad. He might do it anyway but if he feels like he will be judged by the immediate peer group negatively. He might decide not to. Humans don't like feeling judged under any circumstance but especially when they are locked into a social scenario where the immediate peer group might look at them like they are dumb. It's not about making them more skilled it's about social pressure. I can't believe there is a thread and an actual discussion about this :|.

I just saved a bunch of money on my car insurance, by running away from the scene of an accident. 

NewbSaibot   United States. Sep 18 2016 10:25. Posts 4744


  On September 17 2016 20:41 casinocasino wrote:
I think that's really subjective.

I highly doubt that anything anybody says will make the whale player much better (How much better?). But lets say supposedly the table talk caused a lull in the dynamics, how can you sure that it impacted the players game?



Consider this; 2 nights ago a mega whale sitting 4k deep at 2/5 and raising basically every hand gets 3bet by fish sitting on $1200 or so. Whale opened for $30, fish 3bet to $250, some random short stack guy in the blinds calls and whale folds. Fish turns over 55, flops a set and wins the hand. Immediately the table erupts at how "crazy" he is for 3betting 50BB with 55, and the fish defends himself saying "this guy is playing every hand! I cant take a flop with him with 55! I'll never know if it's good or not, unless i hit a set". I was sitting quiet the whole time and immediately thought "damnit he may just have an epiphany here". The fish was quiet for a second and luckily I'm pretty sure he didnt put it together, probably because he knows you dont flop sets very often so that was just blind luck in his eyes.

That's the kind of understanding you dont ever want someone coming to under any circumstance ever.

listening to edzwoo has made u a nit... *sigh* - Zalfor 

 
 1 
  2 
  > 
  Last 
  All 





Poker Streams


















Copyright © 2017. LiquidPoker.net All Rights Reserved
Contact Advertise Sitemap