You don't get it. You broke this news as if it was my (and Drone's) free speech that was under threat and we're somehow not noticing that it's encroaching further. It's not my freedom of speech that is under threat. I'm not a fucking libertarian. I believe in liberal free speech, like most people, I don't collapse hate speech within free speech and use these terms interchangeably.
If this was that big of a deal, it would be everywhere, you wouldn't have to rely on a Neo-Nazi propaganda page to share it. But of course it is hate speech that is targeted, and this is why people are not riled up about this. I did a site-wide search on reddit to see who is discussing this and the only sub to even mention it so far this week are the Gamergaters. You'd think this is pretty weird considering the fact that reddit censorship is specifically mentioned in the video. They used reddit to fine tune the algorithm. You know the original video came out 3 weeks ago and it has 2000 views? No one cares about it.
You should be ashamed for being so careless about where you source the material you share. I would say you should also feel ashamed for banalising the harmful effects of hateful speech, but obviously you can't. You just lack empathy and there's nothing that can be done about that. The weird thing is that you think everything can be dealt with through argumentation to justify your libertarian stance on free speech and yet you also admit that human beings are fundamentally irrational/emotional beings elsewhere, i.e. voluntarism. It's inconsistent.
And while I'm at it, here's something else that's inconsistent. You say the point I make on dominance being a learned process in a specific type of environment/culture is trivial and irrelevant because if it is an instinct we are able to overcome our instincts. Yet on the topic of veganism you admit it is morally superior but your first line of defense for not being vegan is the one of addiction. The only reason you can keep doing it and rationalize it this way is because it is normalized in your culture and you have internalized this. That's what I refer to as imprinting and why it's important because we are experts in rationalizing the things we have been imprinted with and the first step to being able to overcome that and behave in a more free manner is to acknowledge this.
I never said that the study supported my views. I said it highlighted an aspect of socialization/gender norms that is pretty much undeniable. Instead of mocking me you could have proposed an alternative theory as to why women who enjoy and excel in STEM end up choosing lower paying jobs in other fields instead? Your insistence on changing my mind on this is entirely misplaced to begin with, I am not in favor of pursuing equality of outcome...
fuck I should just sell some of my Pokemon cards, if no one stakes that is what I will have to do - lostaccount
Ah yes, catholic feminists and white nationalists, same degree of threat. I see now that my twitter link in my post didn't work, here it is again:
Everyone should click on the tweet and read the entire comment thread by this person. Not just to see how full of shit Baal is in downplaying the insidious nature of the alt-right, but because it's important to see from that perspective. It might not concern you personally but you might have family members or friends who are vulnerable to fall into this trap and you could make them aware of this before it's too late. This is no joke, there was someone in one of my communities who got assimilated by the alt-right when she was feeling down. She used to make normal philosophy/psychology videos on Youtube and she's now a major figurehead in the movement. Hasn't been smooth sailing for her apparently.
On March 03 2018 16:47 VanDerMeyde wrote:
Iraq = terrorist groups and a mad dictator gassing his own citizens
Afghanistan = terrorist groups and the worst place on earth to be born as a woman
Libya = free port for terror
Probably many more reasons for intervention, but im sure glad we did so
you argue against McNasty yet you both share this 12-year-old vision of the US foreign policy of evil terrorists versus freedom fighters.
btw arent you from Norway, why do you say "we"?
"We" as "we in the west". Norway did send troops to Afghanistan and Iraq over the years also.
Im a little tired of these myths about western aggression towards the favourite victim Islam yet again. History repeat itself again and again: Islamic aggression and then playing the victim when getting demolished.
Mexico would obviously not be the first target if the world community would allow free ports for terror in Libya or Afghanistan/Iraq. So I kinda get the ignorance this time. Im sure as hell glad these terrorist groups were not allowed to grow any further.
On March 04 2018 07:10 Loco wrote:
And while I'm at it, here's something else that's inconsistent. You say the point I make on dominance being a learned process in a specific type of environment/culture is trivial and irrelevant because if it is an instinct we are able to overcome our instincts. Yet on the topic of veganism you admit it is morally superior but your first line of defense for not being vegan is the one of addiction. The only reason you can keep doing it and rationalize it this way is because it is normalized in your culture and you have internalized this. That's what I refer to as imprinting and why it's important because we are experts in rationalizing the things we have been imprinted with and the first step to being able to overcome that and behave in a more free manner is to acknowledge this.
Let's talk about dominance. How is it a learned process in a specific type of environment/culture? Baboons and chimpanzees and humans come out of the womb into dominance hierarchies for years and years. I guess in turn that is what we learn. What exactly is the alternative? If I am not a good enough artist I have to submit to my superiors and bureaucracy to pay my bills. I don't have to submit to culture and marketing to buy shiny things but I still have to eat and live somewhere. I have a friend that was recently shot and killed working on a house in a not quite yet gentrified part of town which is the only place I can afford (with roommates). Fuck, I can't even really afford that after needing 4 new tires, 2 teeth cleanings, and 3 cavities to fix. But, I didn't mean to get off on a personal finance tangent. I am just saying it is hard to avoid dominance. Luckily, I report to the owner of the place and as long as food is being prepped I have mostly complete autonomy. I am not being controlled constantly. So, I am not a complete runt getting bullied all the time and I don't need to be in brutal combat to be the king. Maybe that is part of it.
What if I want a mate? Culturally, status and money is typically the 2 things valued by most of society. So, that would bring me back to having the urge, the instinct to climb dominance hierarchies. I do have a libido. I have overcome that libido in the past and continue to do so but it is there like a buzzing mosquito. Marketing abounds. They want to tell me I am not cool enough and I need their product to be cool and get a mate.
In jiu jitsu it feels good to get to a dominant position. It feels great to get someone to submit. It is inherent in our DNA.
How do we carve out a life outside of this paradigm? What can we do to elicit change?
Mandatory shroom therapy? Meditation? Getting to know our neighbors? Creating democratic collective businesses? Banning advertising? Finding a partner outside of the matrix? Get to Finland, go on a basic income, and write poetry all day? Become an activist for all of this stuff?
On March 04 2018 07:10 Loco wrote:
And while I'm at it, here's something else that's inconsistent. You say the point I make on dominance being a learned process in a specific type of environment/culture is trivial and irrelevant because if it is an instinct we are able to overcome our instincts. Yet on the topic of veganism you admit it is morally superior but your first line of defense for not being vegan is the one of addiction. The only reason you can keep doing it and rationalize it this way is because it is normalized in your culture and you have internalized this. That's what I refer to as imprinting and why it's important because we are experts in rationalizing the things we have been imprinted with and the first step to being able to overcome that and behave in a more free manner is to acknowledge this.
Let's talk about dominance. How is it a learned process in a specific type of environment/culture? Baboons and chimpanzees and humans come out of the womb into dominance hierarchies for years and years. I guess in turn that is what we learn. What exactly is the alternative?
The individual solution while you're stuck in such a world, I've said multiple times, is imagination and creativity (and of course, having non-competitive human interactions/connections). The social and systemic solution(s), that's trickier. We first have to change the way we think about our history and become more aware. Here's a good place to start researching that: here & here. All of Graeber's writings are available for free (and can easily be converted to the Kindle format): https://theanarchistlibrary.org/category/author/david-graeber
I believe complexity studies and particularly Morin's work within it is also vital to change the way we have come to view the world but very few people are ready for that it would seem. At minimum, everyone interested in exploring "alternative modes of being" and possibilities should be familiar with systems thinking. A good intro can be found here. Also see: this talk.
As for baboons, we've been sold a bad narrative.
fuck I should just sell some of my Pokemon cards, if no one stakes that is what I will have to do - lostaccount
On March 04 2018 07:10 Loco wrote:
It's not my freedom of speech that is under threat.
And who defines hate speech? apparently a fucking algorithm, yeah that wont backfire ever.
I hope you lose the culture war, when the Trumps, LePenns and the rest of the right wing idiots set ablaze the world I'll be smirking at how they did it with the weaons you built.
If this was that big of a deal, it would be everywhere, you wouldn't have to rely on a Neo-Nazi propaganda page to share it. But of course it is hate speech that is targeted, and this is why people are not riled up about this. I did a site-wide search on reddit to see who is discussing this and the only sub to even mention it so far this week are the Gamergaters. You'd think this is pretty weird considering the fact that reddit censorship is specifically mentioned in the video. They used reddit to fine tune the algorithm. You know the original video came out 3 weeks ago and it has 2000 views? No one cares about it.
If a tree falls in the forestand there isnt a sub-reddit about, does it makes a noise? Who gives a shit about reddit ffs.
You should be ashamed for being so careless about where you source the material you share. I would say you should also feel ashamed for banalising the harmful effects of hateful speech, but obviously you can't. You just lack empathy and there's nothing that can be done about that. The weird thing is that you think everything can be dealt with through argumentation to justify your libertarian stance on free speech and yet you also admit that human beings are fundamentally irrational/emotional beings elsewhere, i.e. voluntarism. It's inconsistent.
it is precisely because I believe humans are flawed that I dont want to create omnipotent cryonist structures of power ruled by these flawed men to rule the rest of us.
And while I'm at it, here's something else that's inconsistent. You say the point I make on dominance being a learned process in a specific type of environment/culture is trivial and irrelevant because if it is an instinct we are able to overcome our instincts. Yet on the topic of veganism you admit it is morally superior but your first line of defense for not being vegan is the one of addiction. The only reason you can keep doing it and rationalize it this way is because it is normalized in your culture and you have internalized this. That's what I refer to as imprinting and why it's important because we are experts in rationalizing the things we have been imprinted with and the first step to being able to overcome that and behave in a more free manner is to acknowledge this.
And the way to make people vegan is trough making them see what is right, not by lying to them as many vegans do, claiming humans are not omnivores or because of helath benefits (truthful or not), that is just finding ways to justify beliefs you base on empathy. that is exactly what you do with your leftist ideas, you don't believe women dont choose STEM out of free will because of data, you search data that confirms a belief based on empathy, thats intellectually dishonest, and thats the reason why you somehow managed to ignore the result of the study of scandinavia.
I never said that the study supported my views. I said it highlighted an aspect of socialization/gender norms that is pretty much undeniable. Instead of mocking me you could have proposed an alternative theory as to why women who enjoy and excel in STEM end up choosing lower paying jobs in other fields instead? Your insistence on changing my mind on this is entirely misplaced to begin with, I am not in favor of pursuing equality of outcome...
what in the fuck.... of course I proposed a theory and its the main point that women have different career preferences that men because of evolutionary roles.
On March 03 2018 16:47 VanDerMeyde wrote:
Iraq = terrorist groups and a mad dictator gassing his own citizens
Afghanistan = terrorist groups and the worst place on earth to be born as a woman
Libya = free port for terror
Probably many more reasons for intervention, but im sure glad we did so
you argue against McNasty yet you both share this 12-year-old vision of the US foreign policy of evil terrorists versus freedom fighters.
btw arent you from Norway, why do you say "we"?
"We" as "we in the west". Norway did send troops to Afghanistan and Iraq over the years also.
Im a little tired of these myths about western aggression towards the favourite victim Islam yet again. History repeat itself again and again: Islamic aggression and then playing the victim when getting demolished.
Mexico would obviously not be the first target if the world community would allow free ports for terror in Libya or Afghanistan/Iraq. So I kinda get the ignorance this time. Im sure as hell glad these terrorist groups were not allowed to grow any further.
all right I just wanted to make sure because you usually sound more american than scandinavian
My entire point is motive, do you believe the US spends trillions of dollars in these wars because they are the good guys spreading freedom and kill baddies, or do you believe it is because of profits and political gain?
Another example of your intellectual dishonesty Loco:
Big data companies benefit from diversity and atmospheres of inclusion, this has been well studied
So if studies pointed that homgenous societies and exclusion worked better would you support ethnonationalism? I dont think you would, so stop arguing from a pragmatic point of view as if what you wanted was what studies show is best, and not what you think is right, stop being dihonest.
On March 04 2018 07:10 Loco wrote:
And while I'm at it, here's something else that's inconsistent. You say the point I make on dominance being a learned process in a specific type of environment/culture is trivial and irrelevant because if it is an instinct we are able to overcome our instincts. Yet on the topic of veganism you admit it is morally superior but your first line of defense for not being vegan is the one of addiction. The only reason you can keep doing it and rationalize it this way is because it is normalized in your culture and you have internalized this. That's what I refer to as imprinting and why it's important because we are experts in rationalizing the things we have been imprinted with and the first step to being able to overcome that and behave in a more free manner is to acknowledge this.
Let's talk about dominance. How is it a learned process in a specific type of environment/culture? Baboons and chimpanzees and humans come out of the womb into dominance hierarchies for years and years. I guess in turn that is what we learn. What exactly is the alternative?
The individual solution while you're stuck in such a world, I've said multiple times, is imagination and creativity (and of course, having non-competitive human interactions/connections). The social and systemic solution(s), that's trickier. We first have to change the way we think about our history and become more aware. Here's a good place to start researching that: here & here. All of Graeber's writings are available for free (and can easily be converted to the Kindle format): https://theanarchistlibrary.org/category/author/david-graeber
I believe complexity studies and particularly Morin's work within it is also vital to change the way we have come to view the world but very few people are ready for that it would seem. At minimum, everyone interested in exploring "alternative modes of being" and possibilities should be familiar with systems thinking. A good intro can be found here. Also see: this talk.
As for baboons, we've been sold a bad narrative.
Won't there always be some level of competition interacting with other humans? I think I've honestly been in interactions where there was not any competitive nature. It can always flare up at times. Or, the dominant/submissive relationship has to be not on the radar. Both parties can be dominant at times and/or not mind being submissive at times. The egos have to be set aside or melted away.
In that piece I wish Graeber would have gone into more detail about how some of the bands or tribes cycled through the leadership. Going from seasons of totalitarian regimes to seasons of more egalitarian periods. The fact that the pattern rang true for more than one group fascinates me and I am not even sure it is registering what that means for this time period. I am sure I could read more of his stuff to find out. He didn't ever really explain how large cities and states of people could be as egalitarian as small bands of hunter gatherers either. That way of life though is the way of life for me: zero stuff, campgrounds, forage for food, about a few hours of work a day and then play music, create art, etc.
Re: Baboons
Speaking of imagination and creativity and psychosis being a product of the times. One of my tried and true psychotic obsessions was that I was meant to be a serial killer of "aggressive jerks." First on the list was always Dick Cheney then Putin then it always seemed to go to African dictators specifically tyrants who practice clitoris mutilation. I always was frustrated that I had no skills to actually carry out the executions and that probably no one that had those skills would carry them out for me. Then I would think about joining the military to acquire those skills and then I would realize I am currently psychotic and no military would take me. I wished today that a nuclear bomb would hit Washington DC and New York and Hollywood (and Russia and China). I don't think there can be a violent uprising. Too many people are too docile and the surveillance is too great. Beating an "aggressive jerk" by being an "aggressive jerk" doesn't solve the problem. It just continues. But, I can't stop thinking about how do we poison the "aggressive jerks." It really could be that easy. And, with the preceding paragraph I have exposed myself as a wild, psychotic terrorist. I can start with the African dictators first ya know. The clitoris mutilators must die. I mean ideally we capture them alive and put them in a German or Norwegian rehabilitation center but that seems far fetched today. Quick executions. 2 shots to the heart and 1 to the head. Nothing drawn out. No spectacle. We can even kill the Russians and the Chinese next just as long as Dick Cheney gets it eventually. Or, we can hold him hostage and take all of his money to go towards a basic income in the US. That only seems fair. All of the Bush folk too. Then the Clinton folk. Then Obama. Then Trump. There has got to be a better way.
And who defines hate speech? apparently a fucking algorithm, yeah that wont backfire ever.
There are all sorts of risks with AI that endanger our species itself and you're concerned with some hate speech social media algorithm over that? If the algorithms don't do a good job for these companies, then they won't use them. Your alternative of libertarian free speech is a lot more naive and dangerous, it fully ignores the paradox of tolerance.
And the way to make people vegan is trough making them see what is right, not by lying to them as many vegans do, claiming humans are not omnivores or because of helath benefits (truthful or not), that is just finding ways to justify beliefs you base on empathy. that is exactly what you do with your leftist ideas, you don't believe women dont choose STEM out of free will because of data, you search data that confirms a belief based on empathy, thats intellectually dishonest, and thats the reason why you somehow managed to ignore the result of the study of scandinavia.
So you've seen what is right and your secondary excuse is to not be vegan because there are vegans you disapprove of and you don't want to be associated with them? That's completely illogical. The logical thing would be to voice out your disapproval of them or be a stealth vegan. Having ethical principles and behaving in accordance with them does not tie you to a group identity and a behavior of comformity. And of course you'd follow that pathetic rationalization with a tu quoque fallacy... only now it's no longer the typical "you're blind to your biases" tripe, it's intellectual dishonesty. Yes, I'm deliberately advancing a false position to counter the undeniable bio-essentialist scientific consensus you've shown to me... lol.
So if studies pointed that homgenous societies and exclusion worked better would you support ethnonationalism? I dont think you would, so stop arguing from a pragmatic point of view as if what you wanted was what studies show is best, and not what you think is right, stop being dihonest.
That amounts to asking me about an alternate universe. If the studies were actually very well conducted and repeated, then yes, I would have to in that world. Denying reality sure as hell wouldn't do any good.
I wasn't talking from a pragmatic point of view, I was talking about what is logical for these companies to do. You're assuming here that my vision of the best possible society at this point in time mirrors the interests/behaviors of these companies, but this is not the case. They want growth and they will do everything for it, while I stress the limits to growth and the need for ecological awareness and balance. Too much unity is sclerotic while too much diversity is hemorrhagic. What I want is people to understand the world as a complex unity that consists of units of diversity. I want there to be less needless suffering in the world.
If a tree falls in the forestand there isnt a sub-reddit about, does it makes a noise? Who gives a shit about reddit ffs.
Yes Baal, who cares about reddit not discussing it at all when it's the #6 most visited website in the world and it is also brought up in the video and was used for the algorithm in question. You really don't know when to back down, continuing this conversation is utterly pointless. I'm bowing out & leaving this interesting data.
"The second important fact shown in Figure 2 is that generally, on average, support for free speech increases as you move from conservatism to liberalism. To any political scientist, this should not be surprising; liberals are known to be higher in openness than conservatives, and conservatives have always been more concerned with social control (law and order). This is only interesting as a corrective for claims that have become very popular in the alt-ideological indie media world. This is understandably due to the presence of high-profile left-wing ideologues opposed to free speech—and the presence of high-profile free speech defenders who happen to lean center-right/libertarian. I think I have heard on separate occasions people such as Bret Weinstein, Dave Rubin, Joe Rogan and others, all talk about how puzzling it is that liberalism/leftism used to be the camp of free speech but now they’re the camp of speech suppression. This is not really true. I think what they should say, and maybe what they mean to say, is that “a puzzling minority of vaguely leftist activists, who happen to have gained media attention, wish to suppress free speech.”
fuck I should just sell some of my Pokemon cards, if no one stakes that is what I will have to do - lostaccount
On March 03 2018 16:47 VanDerMeyde wrote:
Iraq = terrorist groups and a mad dictator gassing his own citizens
Afghanistan = terrorist groups and the worst place on earth to be born as a woman
Libya = free port for terror
Probably many more reasons for intervention, but im sure glad we did so
you argue against McNasty yet you both share this 12-year-old vision of the US foreign policy of evil terrorists versus freedom fighters.
btw arent you from Norway, why do you say "we"?
"We" as "we in the west". Norway did send troops to Afghanistan and Iraq over the years also.
Im a little tired of these myths about western aggression towards the favourite victim Islam yet again. History repeat itself again and again: Islamic aggression and then playing the victim when getting demolished.
Mexico would obviously not be the first target if the world community would allow free ports for terror in Libya or Afghanistan/Iraq. So I kinda get the ignorance this time. Im sure as hell glad these terrorist groups were not allowed to grow any further.
all right I just wanted to make sure because you usually sound more american than scandinavian
My entire point is motive, do you believe the US spends trillions of dollars in these wars because they are the good guys spreading freedom and kill baddies, or do you believe it is because of profits and political gain?
Well political gain of course. I dont see what kind of profits were made, except for the weapon industry. In reality I think there is a war going on, Islam vs the west and others too. But the politicians wisely call it "war against terror". And I think politicians in Europe would be too weak to handle it if it was not for U.S (and still somehow we are letting Saudi Arabia building mosques all over west europe to spread wahabbism). Islam is a very aggressive ideology for 1400 years, 1122 of those years they have been occupying european countries. 3 of the most important wars in history were fought on european ground against Islamic invanders. Luckily we had Charles "the hammer" Martel (because he hammered back all the islamic invaders from occupied Spain), and Jan Sobieski at gates of vienna. Or else women would be going around in burqa all over Europe probably to this day. Hitler was close too, but I think I would prefer to live under nazism than Islam the more I read about it.
:D
Last edit: 05/03/2018 10:41
1
NMcNasty United States. Mar 05 2018 22:06. Posts 2039
Not to derail thread again, and I'm not saying its hard proof, but this is a particularly juicy article regarding the Steele dossier and the Russia investigation, had to be shared:
There are all sorts of risks with AI that endanger our species itself and you're concerned with some hate speech social media algorithm over that? If the algorithms don't do a good job for these companies, then they won't use them. Your alternative of libertarian free speech is a lot more naive and dangerous, it fully ignores the paradox of tolerance.
sigh... I'm not afraid of the algorithm going skynet and taking over the world, I'm saying how awful is that a computer program dictates what ideas are and which aren't kosher to talk about, right now, it suits the company's to push certain ideology, tomorrow it might suit them to ban trans-right and left wing ideologes, if that happens you will get my point since its going right over your head right now.
So you've seen what is right and your secondary excuse is to not be vegan because there are vegans you disapprove of and you don't want to be associated with them? That's completely illogical. The logical thing would be to voice out your disapproval of them or be a stealth vegan. Having ethical principles and behaving in accordance with them does not tie you to a group identity and a behavior of comformity. And of course you'd follow that pathetic rationalization with a tu quoque fallacy... only now it's no longer the typical "you're blind to your biases" tripe, it's intellectual dishonesty. Yes, I'm deliberately advancing a false position to counter the undeniable bio-essentialist scientific consensus you've shown to me... lol.
What? stop playing Kathy Newman, what I'm saying is that you are intellectually dishonest in trying to frame all your ideas because X or Y study proves in your mind that its the best alternative, instead of framing your ideas of why is it right or wrong, as you said that diversity has been proven by some study to be best, is that the fucking reason you are not an ethnocentrist? that's crazy.
So you are either intellectually dishonest, or you are a closet utilitarian monster one study away from genocide, I think it's the first one.
Thanks for the graph pointing out how freedom of speech has increased about homosexuality, atheism and communism from the 70s, shocking! -_-
So let me get this straight, the anti-freespeech advocates arent radical left, but people slightly less on the left, oh that is toooootally different... not.
oh I see... the humanities indoctrinating left wing ideas is a conspiracy theory, however the anti-free speech movement is a legitimate conspiracy to discredit the left LOL ok.
This should not be surprising; liberals are known to be higher in openness than conservatives, and conservatives have always been more concerned with social control (law and order).
Indeed they are, and that's why its quite ironic that you leftists are crafting the tools that you are going to get clubbed with like baby seals with by right wingers when their time comes.
Bret Weinstein, Dave Rubin, Joe Rogan and others, all talk about how puzzling it is that liberalism/leftism used to be the camp of free speech but now they’re the camp of speech suppression. This is not really true. I think what they should say, and maybe what they mean to say, is that “a puzzling minority of vaguely leftist activists, who happen to have gained media attention, wish to suppress free speech.”
Yeah that fringe tiny minority of anti-free speech activists... called GOOGLE/YouTube
I think its funny how you are arguing how leftist are not against freedom of speech, while you are a leftist against freedo of speech oh but hatespeech is not speech, I see how that works, my bad, my bad.
Well political gain of course. I dont see what kind of profits were made, except for the weapon industry.
These wars are literally the US taking trillions of tax-payer dollars and spend it in thousands of different companies with defense contracts, mining, fabric, foundries, optics, tech, shipping, plastic etc.
The wars are basically US tax payers subsidizing these companies for trillions of dollars.
If you are concerned with Islamism you should know that strife, death and poverty are fertile soil for terrorism, and their states pose no military threat to the west, so the most logical path against what you fear is to withdraw military, have tight borders and use those trillions for the benefit of your own society and not blow up goat headers across the world.
I think they've already killed them all Baal. No terrorist news in quite a while now. The bombing of goat herders worked lol
Videos I see now are mostly Muzzies beheading their own people for all sorts of silly shit violating Sharia.
Dont worry mate, USA always creates one terrorist organisation while demolishing another, they wont have a lack of "common enemy of the west" any time soon. It's just that we are still not informed who the next terrorist organization is. I'm guessing its somewhere in Iran now. Maybe Hamas is the world's biggest threat.
I mean, who created Al-Quieda, Saddam and ISIS? Sure its a very complex matter, but in a nutshell its the USA. Lets keep that in the political thread tho
United States. Mar 04 2018 16:21. Posts 8538
