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Random Game Theory Stuff - Page 6

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traxamillion   United States. Feb 13 2015 07:22. Posts 10406

for 100bb poker hu?

do u think it would be similar to limit since the basic odds are the same pre or does the possibility of different betsizes change thinks. If its limit we can reference the Alberta GTO bot.

it opens like 85-90% otb and defends 100% in the BB. GTO says never fold the big blind in hu limit even 27o; you get 3:1 meaning you need 25% equity which you have with everything.

obviously being nl is going to change some things. i think with the ability to bet any size position becomes more important. It was shown by the limit Alberta bot that position had little importance at the GTO level for the computer. The sb winrate was .1 bb/100 higher than the bb or something like that. So if position is more important this may mean tighter play from the BB. The sb can open larger than 2x. We are not sure what exactly is optimal here yet. In heads up play i have been seeing a lot of 2.4-2.9x raising from the sb. Obviously the larger the sb bets the worse odds the BB has and this may tighten the BB calling range as well. Is limping the sb potentially a part of a GTO strat? hasn't been answered yet.

I haven't been playing with tracker software for some time but if I had to guess at my current stats (which i base on what I imagine GTO to be) I open raise to 2.5x pre (was minraising a long time before that and still do sometimes but when everyone minraises vpips get close to 100%) at maybe 80-95% and defend only slightly tighter. I used to play some ridiculous 80%sb open and 30%bb defend as did a lot of people until this was discovered to be terribly imbalanced. I will admit I am still probably too tight in the BB vs 3x opens.

What do u think gto pre is HU? iono if 6max is even worth talking about but we can try that too. What % do you defend vs a 3x open in nlhe


MARSHALL28   United States. Feb 13 2015 08:01. Posts 1897

Minraising the button I think is pretty likely to be GTO. How often I don't know.

A lot of people aren't doing it right now but I think that's just a trend that people happen to be playing fairly well against a minraise and people tend to be playing on average relatively poorly versus larger sized opens. If we had a computer that could play GTO, I just doubt it would ever open anything greater than min OTB as it would be able to use every possible bet sizing postflop and better utilize it's position. Humans aren't able to perceive the slight differences in range interactions on flops that computers can. If we raise the button larger, it slightly diminishes our positional advantage.

This is all assuming 100bb tho. If we assume fewer bb's then minraising obviously becomes better.


pluzich   . Feb 13 2015 13:44. Posts 828


  On February 13 2015 07:01 MARSHALL28 wrote:
Minraising the button I think is pretty likely to be GTO. How often I don't know.

A lot of people aren't doing it right now but I think that's just a trend that people happen to be playing fairly well against a minraise and people tend to be playing on average relatively poorly versus larger sized opens. If we had a computer that could play GTO, I just doubt it would ever open anything greater than min OTB as it would be able to use every possible bet sizing postflop and better utilize it's position. Humans aren't able to perceive the slight differences in range interactions on flops that computers can. If we raise the button larger, it slightly diminishes our positional advantage.

This is all assuming 100bb tho. If we assume fewer bb's then minraising obviously becomes better.



My gut feeling is that GTO would have a range of opening raise sizes, with different probabilities. Cannot imagine sb raises being 100% minraise. The hand ranges would largely intersect, so the raise size would give up little or no information about the range.


MARSHALL28   United States. Feb 13 2015 16:29. Posts 1897


  On February 13 2015 12:44 pluzich wrote:
Show nested quote +



My gut feeling is that GTO would have a range of opening raise sizes, with different probabilities. Cannot imagine sb raises being 100% minraise. The hand ranges would largely intersect, so the raise size would give up little or no information about the range.


you could be right


NMcNasty    United States. Feb 13 2015 17:08. Posts 2002


  On February 13 2015 04:31 MARSHALL28 wrote:
I don't necessarily think that this is true. I don't know the correct answer, but maybe it's the case that GTO never loses more than the initial bb investment.
Because if what you're saying is true, then GTO is an impossibility in HUNL poker based on it's definition.



I meant before the bb investment. After bb is posted, yeah bb's play will certainly be +EV, even more so than sb.


Baalim   Mexico. Mar 08 2015 06:31. Posts 32959


  On February 13 2015 07:01 MARSHALL28 wrote:
Minraising the button I think is pretty likely to be GTO. How often I don't know.

A lot of people aren't doing it right now but I think that's just a trend that people happen to be playing fairly well against a minraise and people tend to be playing on average relatively poorly versus larger sized opens. If we had a computer that could play GTO, I just doubt it would ever open anything greater than min OTB as it would be able to use every possible bet sizing postflop and better utilize it's position. Humans aren't able to perceive the slight differences in range interactions on flops that computers can. If we raise the button larger, it slightly diminishes our positional advantage.

This is all assuming 100bb tho. If we assume fewer bb's then minraising obviously becomes better.



I dont think we know enough about the game to make such statements its very likely we would lose a lot by rising small with strong hands pf

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tehduper   Canada. Apr 21 2015 16:01. Posts 26


  On February 13 2015 03:57 AndrewSong wrote:
before discussing all this stuff, how about we first figure out what the GTO preflop is for 100bb?



lol, GTO preflop is the hardest part to figure out.


Ryan Neilly   United States. Apr 22 2015 20:54. Posts 1280

GTO pre is simple, many programs to help with that.

GTO on the turn and river were my biggest leaks I had to plug


dogmeat   Czech Republic. Apr 22 2015 20:58. Posts 6374


  On April 22 2015 19:54 Ryan Neilly wrote:
GTO pre is simple, many programs to help with that.

dont comment on topics you have no business discussing, like this thread or any cash hands above nl2

ban baal 

Baalim   Mexico. Apr 23 2015 07:44. Posts 32959


  On April 22 2015 19:58 dogmeat wrote:
Show nested quote +

dont comment on topics you have no business discussing, like this thread or any cash hands above nl2


lol boom.


They are right, GTO get considerably more complex the earlier the street, river GTO being the simplest

This does not mean river is the easiest street to play though, our brains are not computers trying to solve GTO, they work very differently

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ToT)MidiaN(    United Kingdom. Apr 23 2015 11:09. Posts 4953

There are several GTO programs on the market now that can solve postflop situations to reasonable accuracy for all streets, usually within 1% distance from nash for flop and much closer on turn and river. As far as I'm aware there's no software that solves for preflop. It's obviously by far the most complex because for there to be a solution the computer would have to compute all of the preflop options, that is Call, 3bet, 4bet yada yada, and compute how those ranges fit into all flop, turn and river run outs. Far more complex than postflop and we're definitely some way away from that.

There are programs that can figure out nash ranges if you exclude the option of postflop play, i.e. you're all in or folding preflop. HoldEm Resources Calculator can give you Nash push/fold ranges, but it's not very useful in a cash game scenario to know you can jam K2o SB v BB with 10bb stacks without being exploited


okyougosu   Russian Federation. Aug 08 2015 18:38. Posts 962

anybody using piosolver or simplepostflop here? i've read thread on 2p2 but not sure which one to get yet

Lammerman 

dogmeat   Czech Republic. Aug 08 2015 19:35. Posts 6374

i ve been using both but i only use pio now, its not very user friendly but lastest build is really fast and browsing thru various turn and river runouts is incredibly easy in pio, the main reason for ditching sp

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drone666   Brasil. Aug 10 2015 10:26. Posts 1696

I started using PioSolver, but some of his strategy seem to be retarded, maybe im doing something wrong lol

 Last edit: 10/08/2015 10:45

ToT)MidiaN(    United Kingdom. Aug 10 2015 11:19. Posts 4953

I have SimplePostflop. I think it's a good program, but haven't used any of the others so can't compare. One plus point is that you can import the hands into GTORB if you prefer viewing the hands that way, which I don't think (perhaps someone can correct me) you can do using PioSolver


dogmeat   Czech Republic. Aug 10 2015 16:42. Posts 6374


  On August 10 2015 09:26 drone666 wrote:
I started using PioSolver, but some of his strategy seem to be retarded, maybe im doing something wrong lol



hey i read it before your edit consider these: stack depth (lower spr = more agressive oop play, your range composition might be off or you somehow limit flop options when facing a raise. also smaller betsizing could result in higher c/r % with spr 5 or less. 35% is way too high thou

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drone666   Brasil. Aug 10 2015 21:50. Posts 1696

haha, well my original post was that PIO was saying that SB should raise 35% vs cbet 3bp on A84hh board
my mistake was that I had no 3bet range on the flop for the BB, so the SB could raise a lot vs small cbets, once I changed his conclusions make a bit more sense, interesting tho, most players dont have a 3bet range on this flop texture

 Last edit: 10/08/2015 21:51

dogmeat   Czech Republic. Aug 11 2015 11:27. Posts 6374

when stacks get shallow you are trying to realise your equity, even ip

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okyougosu   Russian Federation. Aug 14 2015 22:05. Posts 962


  On August 10 2015 10:19 ToT)MidiaN( wrote:
I have SimplePostflop. I think it's a good program, but haven't used any of the others so can't compare. One plus point is that you can import the hands into GTORB if you prefer viewing the hands that way, which I don't think (perhaps someone can correct me) you can do using PioSolver


SP is somewhat retarded, it gives out slightly(0,01%) different strategy for the same flop situation and sizings than pio, i also don't get how to input weight and suits for starting ranges lol.
However, in general, both algorythms come up with almost identical flop solutions, i wonder how one can do poker related programs not even knowing Ac is called clubs

Lammerman 

Baalim   Mexico. Aug 15 2015 01:42. Posts 32959

SimplePostflop has proved to be faster on 2+2 benchmarks which is actually the most important thing about a GTO software, also the ability to export to GTORB online to share with people is fantastic.

Both interfaces need a lot of work though but that isnt that important you get used to it very fast

Im surprised so many of you have 700+ USD softwares tbh

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