Anti-depressants

During trials, researchers are required to report all effects that occur during the study. If you are dealing with a depressive suicidal subject pool, you are dealing with those that are at an increased risk of suicide. If 1 out of 100 commits suicide during the study, you can't rule out that antidepressants caused it. Thus, you have to report suicide as a side effect

^ what he said. Pills fail, plan B kicks in.


People who commit suicide are simply in a poor mental state and shitty life routine. Change it up, don't let fear decide your fate.

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On November 05 2012 12:43 2c0ntent wrote: uhhhh it isn't just because they're pulling from a depressed sample, this is for sure on SSRIs (most common type of anti depressant, googled this article instantly) http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/releases/84005.php its well known that SSRIs can cause some users to develop suicidal thoughts whereas they had never been suicidal before. there is definitely some neurochemical factor here

Correlation does not imply causation.

On November 05 2012 13:41 Carthac wrote: Show nested quote + On November 05 2012 12:43 2c0ntent wrote: uhhhh it isn't just because they're pulling from a depressed sample, this is for sure on SSRIs (most common type of anti depressant, googled this article instantly) http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/releases/84005.php its well known that SSRIs can cause some users to develop suicidal thoughts whereas they had never been suicidal before. there is definitely some neurochemical factor here Correlation does not imply causation.

Neither does the correlation between someone who is prone to suicide and result. [actual suicide (or increase in suicidal tendencies/behavior)]

making the causation either the drug or the patient predisposition, naturally suicidal, both valid. Which itself, logically, that antidepressant can and cannot be the causation as much as a correlation.

interesting:
http://www.scientifica.com/2012/965908/

Scrambled eggs always make me feel queasy for a few hours after afterwards, blerk

explanation I read was that when your depressed you lose motivation to do anything so even though your like "I should kill myself" you dont give a fuck enough to drive to the bridge. When you take anti depressants the first thing that comes back is your motivatation but you still have the self destructive thoughts + suicidal impulses

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On November 05 2012 14:59 2c0ntent wrote: Show nested quote + On November 05 2012 13:41 Carthac wrote:   On November 05 2012 12:43 2c0ntent wrote: uhhhh it isn't just because they're pulling from a depressed sample, this is for sure on SSRIs (most common type of anti depressant, googled this article instantly) http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/releases/84005.php its well known that SSRIs can cause some users to develop suicidal thoughts whereas they had never been suicidal before. there is definitely some neurochemical factor here Correlation does not imply causation. the research to find the effect is: [the subjects of both samples having similar scoring on tests of depression] control/placebo samples vs samples medicated with an SSRI. the frequency with which individuals in each group begin experiencing suicidal thoughts is measured and compared between samples. the SSRI samples consistently exhibit higher rates of suicidal ideation and, well, suicide over longitudinal studies this controls for the effect of bias'd samples that you described before scientists/researchers aren't always stonecold retarded, yeesh

The article did not state if the results were even statistically significant...You realize statistical significance is required to even show a correlation right?

That is why scholarly articles publish results with statistical numbers and googled articles state there may be a correlation. The general media often takes small points in discussion sections of APA papers and expands on them. My point was not to state that the research is invalid. My point was to get you to stay away from your absolute statements of "SSRI's have shown to increase suicidal thoughts in some participants that have certain genetic markers." We do not know the population size of the participants that had those specific 2 genetic markers, we do not know who exhibited the thoughts and who did not, we do not know a lot of things about the study. You are making gigantic leaps of judgement based on the findings of one study that we do not have all the information about.

To simply state that SSRI's increase suicidal thoughts in certain participants would be stating that increased serotonin levels = depression. That is not the case AT ALL. Depression is a mental disorder that is affected by both environmental and chemical factors.

I think they just put that there so they don't get sued when a user kills himself, and people taking anti depressants are usually more likely to kill themselves anyway...

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On November 05 2012 15:46 2c0ntent wrote: I am having trouble with your last sentence.. SSRI stands for selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor. that means it prevents serotonin from being removed from the environment exposing it to serotonin receptors, causing it to trigger the serotonin receptors more than it would without the SSRI. the idea is that an SSRI causes the activity/presence/levels of serotonin in the brain to increase. the way I see it is: take an SSRI = increased serotonin levels (not necessarily the cause of..) = increased frequency of suicidal ideation relative to placebo population suicidal ideation =/= depression

You are correct. The prevention of reuptake causes the neurons to fire more often as the NT does not re-enter the pre-synaptic cell.

The fault you are making with your assumption is that suicidal thoughts are caused solely by imbalanced serotonin levels. There are several different neurotransmitters that are linked to mood regulation(serotonin, dopamine, norepi, etc.) Serotonin is the one being targetted at the moment as it appears to be the most prominent player, but that does not mean more balanced serotonin levels rids you of depression(the typical disorder connected with suicidal thoughts)

Suicidal thoughts can be caused by your environment through poor relationships with friends/family, financial hardship, low self esteem, etc. However, it can also be caused by a chemical imbalance as well. That is why psychology is such a fast evolving field currently. We just recently discovered the link between brain physiology and its manifestations through behavior within the last 70-80 years. Before that, it was mostly armchair psychology through thinkers like Freud. We are still trying to determine even basic things, such as why it takes 2 weeks for antidepressants to take effect when serotonin levels are increased immediately when you take an SSRI.

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interesting information guys

On November 05 2012 14:52 Rinny wrote: explanation I read was that when your depressed you lose motivation to do anything so even though your like "I should kill myself" you dont give a fuck enough to drive to the bridge. When you take anti depressants the first thing that comes back is your motivatation but you still have the self destructive thoughts + suicidal impulses

this, i am a med student and we just learned that last week.


P.S. i didnt read all the posts so sorry if i just repeat it again

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who cares about the suicidal side effects, it's the anal leakage and things like that I worry about when they talk about side effects.

On November 05 2012 16:36 2c0ntent wrote: conjecture: suppose that individuals administered SSRIs in these studies experience a change in, say, isolationist behavior because the specific 'neurochemical' effect of the SSRI. The individuals, being taken from a random sample of clinically depressed people, sometimes have insufficient social skills relative to their expectations -- especially those with isolationist tendencies. Their excitement to enter the world, and subsequent first failure, causes a loss of hope that they aren't equipped to cope with and furthemore have little social support. Low indicators of "hope" are considered an indicator of increased suicide risk. Suicide risk implies higher suicide rate, and in order to perform suicide you must think of it first -- suicidal ideation. Therefore, the SSRI does not cause increased suicidal ideation through a direct neurochemical action, but by an indirect process.

Sounds good in theory, but there are too many assumptions made. You would first have to show a direct link between serotonin and isolation. You would then have to assume because they are socially isolated, they are low-void of social skills. Then you would have to put them into a situation that is similar in every aspect, because different situations pose different variables that have to be accounted for in a study. It would be a long arduous process and you would at most be able to show just an association between the two.

For studies, we control for everything we possibly can so the study can hopefully: 1) hold up to academic scrutiny, 2) be replicable, 3) eliminate other possible explanations for our effect if we found one, 4) dodge a lot of internal and external validity issues.

SSRI and things of the like is the worst shit against depression. ive been depressed (alot "thanks" to my severe OCD) for 10+ years
SSRI has done nothing. it might help people with mild anxiety problems, no idea. Benzodiazepines helps some, but opiates is the best. But thats drugs, and beware of those. a better alternative is probably therapy and challange urself with the things that gives you anxiety, aswell as socialize as much as possible. socializing is very important for our well-being. (havnt read the whole thread so this might have been said)

On November 05 2012 11:37 DaEm0niCuS wrote: ^ what he said. Pills fail, plan B kicks in. People who commit suicide are simply in a poor mental state and shitty life routine. Change it up, don't let fear decide your fate.

This arbitrary oversimplification is ridiculous and an insult to intelligence.

On November 05 2012 17:20 inc wrote: SSRI and things of the like is the worst shit against depression. ive been depressed (alot "thanks" to my severe OCD) for 10+ years SSRI has done nothing. it might help people with mild anxiety problems, no idea. Benzodiazepines helps some, but opiates is the best. But thats drugs, and beware of those. a better alternative is probably therapy and challange urself with the things that gives you anxiety, aswell as socialize as much as possible. socializing is very important for our well-being. (havnt read the whole thread so this might have been said)

You realize antidepressants are always coupled with therapy correct? If they are not, the failure rate of the drug is around 95%? Being depressed leads to behavior that fits your mood. If you begin to take SSRI's and continue to live a lifestyle that makes you depressed(overeating, not exercising, isolated, pessimistic attitude, etc.), you will continue to feel depressive feelings. Oddly enough, this can lead to an even greater depression because you may lose hope in one day escaping depression. Seeking therapy should be mandatory, but we simply can't force someone into it if they are unwilling.

On November 05 2012 11:37 DaEm0niCuS wrote: ^ what he said. Pills fail, plan B kicks in. People who commit suicide are simply in a poor mental state and shitty life routine. Change it up, don't let fear decide your fate.

Please don't listen to this guy. To sum it up that simply shows your incredible ignorance of the topic

On November 05 2012 17:34 Carthac wrote: Show nested quote + On November 05 2012 17:20 inc wrote: SSRI and things of the like is the worst shit against depression. ive been depressed (alot "thanks" to my severe OCD) for 10+ years SSRI has done nothing. it might help people with mild anxiety problems, no idea. Benzodiazepines helps some, but opiates is the best. But thats drugs, and beware of those. a better alternative is probably therapy and challange urself with the things that gives you anxiety, aswell as socialize as much as possible. socializing is very important for our well-being. (havnt read the whole thread so this might have been said) You realize antidepressants are always coupled with therapy correct? If they are not, the failure rate of the drug is around 95%? Being depressed leads to behavior that fits your mood. If you begin to take SSRI's and continue to live a lifestyle that makes you depressed(overeating, not exercising, isolated, pessimistic attitude, etc.), you will continue to feel depressive feelings. Oddly enough, this can lead to an even greater depression because you may lose hope in one day escaping depression. Seeking therapy should be mandatory, but we simply can't force someone into it if they are unwilling.   On November 05 2012 11:37 DaEm0niCuS wrote: ^ what he said. Pills fail, plan B kicks in. People who commit suicide are simply in a poor mental state and shitty life routine. Change it up, don't let fear decide your fate. Please don't listen to this guy. To sum it up that simply shows your incredible ignorance of the topic

yes my dear friend i know everything about it. ive tried all kind of therapy combined with 10+ different SSRI and other similar drugs. nothing has helped me. when i finally got Benzodiazepines i started feeling better, became more brave in challenging myself aswell as having an easier time socializing (after getting some kind of social anxiety due to the depression) SSRI is not TOTAL bullshit, it works for some, i know that. but its absolutely not the answer for even 50% of depressed people, even combined with therapy. But well i have OCD and its about the hardest thing to treat. But i prefer no SSRI (with its shitty side-effects, many sexual) and only therapy.
But im no doctor and dont know everything, but ive never met anyone that was satisfied with their SSRI use. and i know alot of people who are/have been depressed.

depression often leads to isolation, bad self-esteem, and alot of other shitty things like social anxiety. it might even start with one of these things.

best thing is challenge urself, and socialize as much as possible. that what ive learned from these 10+ years. also routines are good, atleast for treating OCD, but i bet its good for anyone.

On November 05 2012 18:00 inc wrote: Show nested quote + On November 05 2012 17:34 Carthac wrote:   On November 05 2012 17:20 inc wrote: SSRI and things of the like is the worst shit against depression. ive been depressed (alot "thanks" to my severe OCD) for 10+ years SSRI has done nothing. it might help people with mild anxiety problems, no idea. Benzodiazepines helps some, but opiates is the best. But thats drugs, and beware of those. a better alternative is probably therapy and challange urself with the things that gives you anxiety, aswell as socialize as much as possible. socializing is very important for our well-being. (havnt read the whole thread so this might have been said) You realize antidepressants are always coupled with therapy correct? If they are not, the failure rate of the drug is around 95%? Being depressed leads to behavior that fits your mood. If you begin to take SSRI's and continue to live a lifestyle that makes you depressed(overeating, not exercising, isolated, pessimistic attitude, etc.), you will continue to feel depressive feelings. Oddly enough, this can lead to an even greater depression because you may lose hope in one day escaping depression. Seeking therapy should be mandatory, but we simply can't force someone into it if they are unwilling.   On November 05 2012 11:37 DaEm0niCuS wrote: ^ what he said. Pills fail, plan B kicks in. People who commit suicide are simply in a poor mental state and shitty life routine. Change it up, don't let fear decide your fate. Please don't listen to this guy. To sum it up that simply shows your incredible ignorance of the topic yes my dear friend i know everything about it. ive tried all kind of therapy combined with 10+ different SSRI and other similar drugs. nothing has helped me. when i finally got Benzodiazepines i started feeling better, became more brave in challenging myself aswell as having an easier time socializing (after getting some kind of social anxiety due to the depression) SSRI is not TOTAL bullshit, it works for some, i know that. but its absolutely not the answer for even 50% of depressed people, even combined with therapy. But well i have OCD and its about the hardest thing to treat. But i prefer no SSRI (with its shitty side-effects, many sexual) and only therapy. But im no doctor and dont know everything, but ive never met anyone that was satisfied with their SSRI use. and i know alot of people who are/have been depressed.

You know nothing about it. Personal experience does not equate to knowledge on the topic; it equates to your experiences with it. When you started recommending benzodiazapines and opiates for depression, you went over the line into ignorance. Those are not meant for those suffering from depression. It sounds like you had anxiety issues and used them recreationally, which led to you opening up and developing friendships/relationships. Doctors recommend you to support groups and the like because it introduces you to social situations where you can develop friendships/relationships.

It sounded like you had more than depression. If that is the case, most likely SSRI's alone may not have solved the problem completely, since you were either: 1) not responding to them, or 2) not following through with seeking therapy and changing your behavior to create a more happy environment. Don't post panacea type opinions recommending those to go against SSRI's because they did not work out for your specific situation.

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On November 05 2012 18:16 Carthac wrote: Show nested quote + On November 05 2012 18:00 inc wrote:   On November 05 2012 17:34 Carthac wrote:   On November 05 2012 17:20 inc wrote: SSRI and things of the like is the worst shit against depression. ive been depressed (alot "thanks" to my severe OCD) for 10+ years SSRI has done nothing. it might help people with mild anxiety problems, no idea. Benzodiazepines helps some, but opiates is the best. But thats drugs, and beware of those. a better alternative is probably therapy and challange urself with the things that gives you anxiety, aswell as socialize as much as possible. socializing is very important for our well-being. (havnt read the whole thread so this might have been said) You realize antidepressants are always coupled with therapy correct? If they are not, the failure rate of the drug is around 95%? Being depressed leads to behavior that fits your mood. If you begin to take SSRI's and continue to live a lifestyle that makes you depressed(overeating, not exercising, isolated, pessimistic attitude, etc.), you will continue to feel depressive feelings. Oddly enough, this can lead to an even greater depression because you may lose hope in one day escaping depression. Seeking therapy should be mandatory, but we simply can't force someone into it if they are unwilling.   On November 05 2012 11:37 DaEm0niCuS wrote: ^ what he said. Pills fail, plan B kicks in. People who commit suicide are simply in a poor mental state and shitty life routine. Change it up, don't let fear decide your fate. Please don't listen to this guy. To sum it up that simply shows your incredible ignorance of the topic yes my dear friend i know everything about it. ive tried all kind of therapy combined with 10+ different SSRI and other similar drugs. nothing has helped me. when i finally got Benzodiazepines i started feeling better, became more brave in challenging myself aswell as having an easier time socializing (after getting some kind of social anxiety due to the depression) SSRI is not TOTAL bullshit, it works for some, i know that. but its absolutely not the answer for even 50% of depressed people, even combined with therapy. But well i have OCD and its about the hardest thing to treat. But i prefer no SSRI (with its shitty side-effects, many sexual) and only therapy. But im no doctor and dont know everything, but ive never met anyone that was satisfied with their SSRI use. and i know alot of people who are/have been depressed. You know nothing about it. Personal experience does not equate to knowledge on the topic; it equates to your experiences with it. When you started recommending benzodiazapines and opiates for depression, you went over the line into ignorance. Those are not meant for those suffering from depression. It sounds like you had anxiety issues and used them recreationally, which led to you opening up and developing friendships/relationships. Doctors recommend you to support groups and the like because it introduces you to social situations where you can develop friendships/relationships. It sounded like you had more than depression. If that is the case, most likely SSRI's alone may not have solved the problem completely, since you were either: 1) not responding to them, or 2) not following through with seeking therapy and changing your behavior to create a more happy environment. Don't post panacea type opinions recommending those to go against SSRI's because they did not work out for your specific situation.

indeed i speak from personal experience, and alot of my friends experiences aswell, who does not have OCD. and yes i had more then a depression.ive been locked in several times for trying to take my life. so i guess its more severe then a normal depression. none the less, the people ive got to known while being "locked in" all shared the same idea, SSRI doesnt help. but as ive said i am no doctor, and dont know everything, and i know it works for some. and yes talking about opiates was stupid, its a plain drug, while benzodiazepines is better. alot of people that needs it doesnt get it cos of the restrictive policy. perhaps you know more about SSRI then me, and i regret that i said SSRI is shit. it is for me and many others, but not for everyone. but i have alot of anxiety experience, and i do know how to get rid of it sometimes (when not to severe, then i just hide under my pillow) and that is socialize as much as possible, basically have an active life. do things that you think is fun - but maybe more importantly do things that makes you feel good in the long run, that might not be fun in the now.