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So im reading 2+2 threads about hated shortstackers and they are talking about the "best" shortstackers etc. which got me thinking this morning in the shower.
Everyone always talks about how they are unexploitable etc etc annoying and thats fine but I never really thought about why and if i could understand it it would also help me with my deepstacked game. NOONE will ever discuss the details of shortstacking or WHY its profitable just that it is so I am attempting to figure it out for myself (and not because I want to do it I have fun playing full and want to have solid deepstacked skills in the event that i have to switch to live poker at some point. You can find me posting more in the hand discussion forums than actually playing because I just like to understand the game)
I kinda just assumed they played tight doubled up shoving a tighter range pre than laggy fuller stacks who called them incorrectly (this does acct for some of their winrate im sure but not all of it)
A lot of their winrate must also come from steals and I think this is what makes them hard to beat (I was wondering why imsakidd ran like 16/16 in a datamine i saw - that seemed pretty loose for a range of hands to profitably get it AI preflop with but I realized hes not always ai often going to be opening but then folding). The same as a fullstack will be opening a wide range late so can a shortstack. just like a fullstack can fold to a 3bet so can the shortstack. The difference is it will almost always be incorrect to CALL the 20bb stack because you never really have implied odds unless i guess you are trapping a SS (which i havent given much thought to yet). A shortstack can also effectively resteal via 3bet preflop the same as a fullstack but in many cases will actually have more FE because there are no implied odds due to a 20bb SS 3bet being a shove.
A shortstack then gets to the flop sometimes if called (say shortstack opens co button flats or button and bb flat - dunno how often that should happen) at which point i guess they can just look at pot odds, put their opponent on a range of hands and decide whether or not they have enough equity to get it in or not.
It seems to me that shortstacking breaks the game down into a math problem by leaving out true postflop decisions. A shortstack can easily exploit a fullstack who doesn't adjust but even if a fullstack adjusts to the shortstack if the shortstack is playing right the shortie and the full will be breakeven vs each other.
The variance might be rougher in terms of "buyins" because winrate is lower than that of a good fullstack but in terms of bb im not confident that the swings are any worse because at the end of days you are still getting the same card distribution. -variance is due to winrate so if a shorty wins at 4bb/100 and a fullstack wins at 4bb/100 they should have comparable swings i guess it might just SEEM worse for the shortstack.
Seems like when battling a shortstacker it is kinda gay because you have to beat them at their own game since all you really have is pre and maybe 1 other street. You tighten up too much and you give up too much but if you don't then you play too loose and give away too much.
At the same time im sure its hard for a shortstacker to play optimally. shortstacking is simpler but still doesn't seem as easy to me as a lot of people try to make it out to be because you still have to be pretty good at deducing handranges etc.
And i see how if they got rid of ratholing it wouldnt really work.
I could be totally off the mark on all of this but it seems to make sense and explains why some SS are considered good while others aren't.
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ReSpOnSe United States. Feb 18 2008 13:19. Posts 405 | | |
shortstacking is profitable? i thought it was just retards underrolled wanting to move up to higher stakes. who knew |
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i hate shortstacker they will call anyway and put the rest of the stack...can t bluff them..
shortstacker is calling station too, but they put the best of it and are like real poison, especially in omaha..
(rolf slotboom book)
i think if i am having a terrible downswing , shortstaking is maybe a good answer to limit big lose too, just an idea... |
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| I was playing poker with tarot cards the other night. I got a full house and four people died. WTF...welcome to finland... | |
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EvilSky  Czech Republic. Feb 18 2008 13:56. Posts 8918 | | |
I really hate shorties, like 50bb is ok, but 20bb nits just piss me off. I thought about raising their blinds every time, and making it like 3x or 2.5x so you risk less , but Im not sure thats optimal, what do you think? |
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JYang United States. Feb 18 2008 14:00. Posts 2669 | | | |
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yea like if a shorty is in the bb and your button you shouldn't pot it; raise less.
50bb it wouldn't work - the 20bb + ratholing allows shortstacking to work.
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PoorUser United States. Feb 18 2008 14:26. Posts 7472 | | |
all short stackers are gay
end discussion |
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yea they are gay and I don't advocate it but I do like to understand all aspects of the game i play.
nothin more or less |
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rogier Netherlands. Feb 18 2008 14:49. Posts 1528 | | |
when you play poker you open up more towards the button, where you open the most
this because you can outplay other fullstacks postflop if you have position.
since theres less streets postflop vs a shortstacker, handvalues matter more vs em, and if you open a wide range LP a shortstack can 3bet you profitable with crap like ATo+, whereas if the shortstack were a fullstack he wouldnt be able to play the hand postflop
shortstacking kinda gays the whole postflop since you/he are pretty much easier committed after preflop action
(hand that might sum it up: u open 88 from btn(3bb raise), sb 3bets u to 10bb. whereas you might want to call vs a fullstack(setodds and whatever), calling vs a shortie is never an option there imo |
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| | Last edit: 18/02/2008 14:52 |
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Bejamin1 Canada. Feb 18 2008 14:49. Posts 7042 | | |
| | On February 18 2008 13:26 PoorUser wrote:
all short stackers are gay
end discussion |
I fuckin love you. |
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| Sorry dude he Jason Bourned me. -Johnny Drama | |
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yea but would you play for stacks pre for 20bb vs a ss 3betting out of the blinds? those are the spots i kinda wonder about right now because a lot of SS will be shoving like all pairs in that spot when they RR.
I feel like i call shortstacks too light personally |
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i know you obv can't call with 88 there to sethunt but 88 might be ahead of his 3betting range? thats kinda what im trying to figure out.
I usually call shortie 3bets vs me with like 1010+ aj+ but i don't play limits where they are true shortstackers they are mostly just fish. |
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TwistedEcho United Kingdom. Feb 18 2008 15:20. Posts 3539 | | |
| | On February 18 2008 14:11 traxamillion wrote:
i know you obv can't call with 88 there to sethunt but 88 might be ahead of his 3betting range? thats kinda what im trying to figure out.
I usually call shortie 3bets vs me with like 1010+ aj+ but i don't play limits where they are true shortstackers they are mostly just fish. |
if i raise 88 on button and a SS 3bets (which will be a shove) im calling vs almost all of them. If they are pushing too tight that 88 is a raise/fold from button from a good aggro player, they are horrible shortstackers. |
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yea thats kinda what i thought twisted |
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mikeymoo Canada. Feb 18 2008 15:31. Posts 988 | | |
afaik PokerStrategy endorses a lot of shortstack play. It's pretty much raise 77+, AJ+, and cbet every flop that's heads up. Raise with certain hands only in late position. Only good up to NL200 or so.
I dunno, all off of what my friend told me from there.
At lower levels, I'm pretty sure most of the 7% pfr shortstacks are only 3betting JJ+ and AK.
As for the more aggressive ones, I really have no clue how to play against them. |
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bane United States. Feb 18 2008 15:53. Posts 2379 | | |
who was the short stacker that would type chu chu or something like that when you doubled him up |
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" lower levels, I'm pretty sure most of the 7% pfr shortstacks are only 3betting JJ+ and AK. "
those aren't the shortstackers i am talking about good shortstackers are like 15% +
bane - imsakidd |
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mikeymoo Canada. Feb 18 2008 16:17. Posts 988 | | |
| | On February 18 2008 14:58 traxamillion wrote:
" lower levels, I'm pretty sure most of the 7% pfr shortstacks are only 3betting JJ+ and AK. "
those aren't the shortstackers i am talking about good shortstackers are like 15% +
bane - imsakidd |
How often do they 3bet? Do you have any stats on them? |
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SPEWTARD Peru. Feb 18 2008 16:31. Posts 4307 | | | |
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