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Recap + Identifying player types post PTR |
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Joeingram1 United States. Jun 16 2012 05:52. Posts 943 | | |
This might be my longest post ever reading it again now, but if you use twitter and like to interact follow me on their as I spend most of my time on their now and talking to random people, way more fun for me nowadays to read on there. Also I misspell a few words later down when I went into beast writing mode and just going to keep it like that, sorry to the spelling pro's out there but i don't know how to spell identify on the fly well lol
JoeIngram1 Twitter
Poker Recap
I need to do a blog recap of last like month and a half, I dont think I ever put up my pic from when I met the legend himself Phil Galfond. Super nice guy and was fun to hang out with. Stinger was staying at my place for a weekish during SCOOP and told me he would take almost all my action if i wanted to play 25/50 and 50/100 again, was grinding 400-1k at the time pretty happily and enjoying the low stress/variance. I decided sure why not and lost like 7bi at 50/1 and made a bit at 25/50 but still fucked with my head a bit just seeing the big drops in my graph lol. This was first time Ive ever sold any piece of anything in cash games so felt kinda bad losing someone else money but then felt little bit less bad when he bossed it up for like 500k when he was here and kept going on about how he needed to get to Vegas to go bracelet hunting and then of course wins a bracelet, can't even describe it but such a beast/machine/legend. My May graph was looking okay but I actually ended up down a bit (like 10kish) when I took out what piece Stinger had of me and was first losing month in awhile so felt pretty meh about that. Was hard to mentally adjust to playing 1200 dollar and 2000 dollar pots one day and then getting it in good and losing 20k pots the next, even if it was essentially playing 5000 dollar pots, I think I could get used to it in the future but at the time last month I was just like ahhh fuck this shit. Grinding midstakes is just so much less stressful, although lately this month I have been loading up every single table and just battling, which is going away from the strategy I employed the first few months of this year that allowed me to make so much money. First 5 days of the month I was playing with like 20 percent 3b 24 tabling, just batshit insane, chatting everytime I lost a hand and putting myself on tilt. Finally a few days into the month I banned my chat and am on like a 20k upswing since, still mass tabling though but play like infintely better not spazzing in chat and putting myself on tilt. I'm kinda just passing the time until I decide to leave Canada, not even sure what I'm still doing here but the hint I can give you is there may or may not be someone of the opposite sex persuading me to stay longer.
I made this blog for a reason originally and that was to write a bunch about ways to identify player types without the use of PTR but I will post some pics and graphs first.
This is my May Graph, as you can see there is a like 110k drop in there which was over a few days time span, not even sure what percentage of that was mine and really don't even want to think about it anymore. Stinger had like 45kish (more or less not sure right now) so ended down money. Also ended down in buying pieces for SCOOP and playing High plo scoop but actually ended up about 20k in live cash and up some buying pieces of stinger so actually might have had a super small winning month when take it all into account but dissappointing nonetheless.
A random pic of me and Phil G
So at some point in time over the past few months I kept using a goal of buying a new car (ferrari) as a way to motivate myself to keep playing and making money. I decided to start looking more into that over the past month and debating buying a car in canada for a few different reasons. I was thinking of staying here longer and was going to just say fuck it and get one for a few months and then figure out resale later or importing into usa at some point or who knows what. I have alot of money in Canadian dollar right now in my bank and with the conversion rate not so hot in my favor I thought this might also work if I was to head back to the USA and was planning to buy a car anyway. Alot of my friends on 2p2 and fb gave me their inputs as to the idea of doing this and most said it was dumb/idiot thing to do which probably is true but I was moreso looking at it with a way to reward myself for the hours and hours of grinding I have put in to give myself the dream car I have always said I was trying to make money to afford one day. Knowing I could always resell it if for whatever reason and would continue to play poker online and still make money. I still have been going back and forth on it now but have kinda decided for the time being with potential move back to USA and then trips to Vegas and Spain that I can put off buying a car and see where my head is at come August and see where I decide to ultimately settle down at post summer. With that said here is a pic and video of my test driving an f430
Video
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10151115858820312
Player Type Color Coding
I want to write about the EV of buying pieces of people that you are friends with and in the marketplace but will save that for a few days from now as I want to write about what this was intented to be about before I lose the passion to write. I only get this feeling once every few months now so want to take advantage of when I have it. I always have thought one of my strongest edges this year was exploiting the weaker players by intedifying their specific areas of weakness and devising what works best against that type of play. I was game selecting pretty hard for awhile and by doing this and only playing 1 or 2 tables at a time you naturally focus in more, with having position on the fish all the time you would end up paying more attention to their play and figuring out certain lines they take with certain ranges/hand strengths and could then figure out ways to best exploit this. Alot of the really bad players were semi-regulars in a sense so if you can be really fast at seat selection you will end up playing with these guys often. Also with the use of PTR and looking at stats you could then pinpoint more exact the type of player a new fish was and have a better plan of attack because would have played against a wide varitey of fish already and learned in what areas to exploit. Without the use of PTR though its kinda like a big pandoras box for me lately in idetendigiyng new fish types and figuring out where they fall on the color coding scale. I use a color coding scale of about 12-15 colors ranging from The WORST OF THE WORST aka the -80ptbb players aka the ones you would play even 2 to their right sometimes (julia, rafedu, few others) to the guys you just want to avoid playing with because their winrates are awesome for a reason (eire, cleaner, lautie). I don't ultimately think those 2 specific colors matter to much because the WofW you can usually tell almost immeditaly by their stats/plays they make but its the other 11 colors in the middle that are the clusterfuck to figure out and learning how to idetify better and faster will ultimately give you a better edge on the competition and make you more money.
Luckily for me I have a base color down for most of the people I play vs 2-4+ and I'm happy I do. There are some random people that you never really notice or remember that I PTR'd before who would show up with like super awesome winrates over a good sample who I coded accordingly with just looking at their stats would think they are random player. I can kinda do a bit to avoid these players now and look to exploit others. Without PTR though this is impossible so I have been trying to figure out other ways to do this but haven't really stumpled upon anything besides HEM research and intent attention while at the tables in the forms of notes and what they showdown. I have some Fishy/weaker Reg color codes and those came in handy so much when playing against, these are the breakeven or slight losers who play really often and sometimes multiple tables but you seem them make plays like getting it in with Weak SD/Weak FD/Dominate draws in spots where good players would never do because they know their equity is never going to be ahead vs the range of hands you are getting it in with. These are just fundamental errors some make because they overvalue certain hands still and at some point after losing enough with them you realize (you do win alot with these hands too sometimes which justifies you to keep playing them that way). When you see regs make plays like this over time that is a big indicator of this color and then you can adjust accordingly when playing bigger spots with them and knowing there range is going to be wider then a better player. You can also expect this type to make alot of smaller mistakes in other pots and get to showdown a bit more/wider so can barrel them off the weaker part of their range and also valuebet thinner. Post PTR i think this player type might be one of the easier to identify for me personally.
The hardest tier for me to get a handle on right now is that like 5-10 range (using 1 amazing-12 worst scale). These guys were insta easy to give a base color with PTR because they would range from -7ptbb to like -35ptbb and could label them right away and then if you started to see them more often could go more indepth in their game but as a standard you wouldn't see these guys that often but sometimes often enough where their tier might matter (ie: you have 6 games going and a new game pops up where a 5/6 tier with 50bb doesn't provide that much value and is slightly +ev when trying to focus really hard on the other games with more EV/Value where before you could identify these types right away but now you have to play with them to figure it out). The ability to identify these players as quick as possible and be right about it I think ultimately is very valuable. Their are some guys I just leave as undecided fish for a few session because I really just can't fuckin tell where they fall. There are some 70/8 players who really never stack off and with PTR before this was easy to identify with winrate/stats but now your like this dude is playing 70 percent, he has to be terrible, lets color code him this and insta sit/be on the lookout. In reality this guy is a slight losing player who doesn't provide that much value compared to others who in the wrong table dynamics you might be even losing a bit/high variance spot. Going from the 8-10 tier is kinda difficult for me to establish right now too because the difference in even those 2 for me from what I have seen is immense sometimes. The 10's with their winrate are the types sometimes to just say fuck it preflop and gambool it up with any 4 cards therefore letting you adjust accordingingly and get it in for value wider. Where'as an 8 will still play pretty snug preflop in those same spots but is going to play pretty poorly postflop and get it in bad on certain flops. The problem for me is distinguishing those 2 types quickly because their stats tend to be similar and without paying alot of attention you just group them as one but your still missing out on spots to exploit them and win their money when looking at it like this. I'm still working on ways to be able to distinguish a 5 from a 9 but honestly not working hard enough right now as I have kinda checked out on the whole bumhunting aspect when playing midstakes.
I do have similar viewpoints on identifying regulars and giving an appropriate tier for them but I don't really feel like writing to much anymore so will have to save that for another time. Ultimately anything I have just said really won't mean to much to the mass tabling beasts that can play in any lineup and have an edge for the most part (mipwnya, lautie, rivalzz (debatable him). But I think there are alot of people that just kinda go unnoticed with not so big edges that if they were able to identify player types better/more efficent/faster could make themselves more money. Writing this was kinda just my way to figure out for myself my thoughts on the current spectrum of things and get some feedback from other people on some things they look for or ways that helps them accomplish this better. I know alot of this might seem like holy fucking shit why are you thinking about this shit so much but this is basically the strategy I used besides running good to make me 450k lol which I have gone away from. The basic idea to minmize your variance/hands you play/spots you get in vs the really good players (in and oop) and instead focus a majority of your efforts on only the weak player in the lineup and how you can take his money the fastest and most efficient and be on to the next one. Since I have less confidence right now in my fish finding ability I instead have reverted to my old strategy of just playing any seat/any game/as many as possible but luckily for me I am a much better player now then I was before when I used to do this and I can achieve some level of success doing it but with higher variance/swings.
I probably missed saying some things because my mind went elsewhere but will re-read this few times over the next few days and add in anything I may have not said or forgot to write down. I have a tough time lately verbalizing/writing anything I think out lol
O yea graph for June since chat ban so far, basically 24 tabling/playing anyone HU, lot of the big drops are from losing alot to the run good god regulars that never lose at HU deep tables
Thanks for reading guys/gals
ket/baalim fuck off still applies  haha nah, i like you ket. baalim seems okay too
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Joeingram1 United States. Jun 16 2012 06:36. Posts 943 | | |
Thanks long, I didn't think I would be able to adjust that well to going back to it but Im getting more used to it. It is kinda difficult having to lower your monthly expectations for your potential profit and still trying to accept that even if I have a 20k month, its still a pretty good month. Whereas for the first 4 months of the year I was always going for 100k+ months. Actually will have to write more about that in next blog post because I think might be able to talk about some good/bad ways to look at it and some others might have some ideas for help in doing it too becasue I know alot of people have HARD problem lowering their ego/expectations to be able to drop down |
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longple  Sweden. Jun 16 2012 07:22. Posts 4472 | | |
yea something I (most***) def need to work into my game/grind, atleast when not feeling the groovy A game/confidence
(while being rolled for higher  )
*** + Show Spoiler +
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qwerty67890 New Zealand. Jun 16 2012 08:33. Posts 14026 | | |
you have the work ethic of an Asian
but the money management skills of an African American. |
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Jun Croatia. Jun 16 2012 09:00. Posts 825 | | | |
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Joeingram1 United States. Jun 16 2012 09:00. Posts 943 | | |
yea long, thats a really good point for why also dropping down potentially to.
And hahaha byrne, I actually haven't spent hardly any money yet, have just been thinking about it. Also racist ban |
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locoo Peru. Jun 16 2012 14:56. Posts 4561 | | |
Sick pic w Phil G hope I can meet him someday. You and mipwnya always make me wanna go back and try PLO again, even tho that game scares the shit out of me lol. |
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Eluflop Estonia. Jun 16 2012 15:32. Posts 3835 | | |
ferrari would be very sick bro ... gl |
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YoMeR United States. Jun 16 2012 16:33. Posts 12435 | | |
ewww don't spew on a ferarri...invest that shit on moderate risk or even low risk investments...you'll be multi multi millionare in 5-10 years ez.
then you'll be a super baller |
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NewbSaibot United States. Jun 16 2012 17:05. Posts 4944 | | |
Get the ferrari. You're young, you have money, you're not at risk, live it up. I'm not saying be retarded and over extend yourself, but I dont see why you couldnt afford this right now. Plus you can probably sell it for damn near what you paid for it in 6 months or whatever if you decide it was a mistake. Hell even a 10k loss would be worth it to own a ferrari for half a year. |
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Joeingram1 United States. Jun 16 2012 17:49. Posts 943 | | |
ive looked into resale a large amount newb and is basically what would end up happening. The loss for a few months is 5-10ish depending on how many miles/condition it ends up in plus taxes end up paying, but for 6 months I think thats more than worth it basically.
If it was so easy that you could just invest in moderate risk or even low risk stocks then everyone with a few hundred thousand would be rich right now but Im still considering all options potentially. Right now just investing in myself playing poker lol |
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MiPwnYa Brasil. Jun 16 2012 20:39. Posts 5230 | | |
thats a lot of text : )
u in vegas already ?
need to meet up around some fine food and get TIPSEYH on epic french wines |
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RICHI8 United States. Jun 17 2012 01:23. Posts 1341 | | |
Don't blow your money on a car. I highly doubt the depreciation over a few months will only be ~$10k. Anyone who can afford a Ferrari doesn't mind throwing the extra $10k to get one brand new from the dealer.
Plus, the feeling of having a really nice cars goes away a lot quicker than you'll think and as every year goes by and new models come out that feeling goes away even more quickly. |
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Joeingram1 United States. Jun 17 2012 03:06. Posts 943 | | |
I can tell that you have never looked at the prices of the different cars Rich because you would know the difference between the car I'm looking at and a brand new one from the dealer is roughly 150kish, (new 458s are near 300kish) maybe a bit more depending on the year/miles on the used one your looking at. Its pretty common to not really know to much about it though as I would have thought similar to what you did before I ever really researched it. And the depreciation over a years time is on average less then 10k depending on if you put an average # of miles on it and keep it in good condition/serviced. The original base price on a 2005 F430 was 175k. Those same cars now in 2012 I would say range from 130-150k. An 01 360 base was around 145k brand new and 11/12 years later cars kept in good condition with low miles are selling for 90k sometimes a bit more. As you can see they do hold their value quite remarkably so if I did decide to end up getting one and for whatever reason have to get rid of it 6 months down the road, the loss I would incur wouldn't be as much and potentially even justified for the enjoyment that would come along with it.
I think the feeling each person gets from having a nice car is different. I would consider my m3 convertible to be a great car and everytime I get in it for 3-4 years now that feeling has honestly never gone away. I still love it and even with newer models coming out if doesn't make me any less. Although everyone is going to be different, some might get that feeling and others don't. |
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Highcard Canada. Jun 17 2012 13:35. Posts 5428 | | |
It's pretty interesting seeing how many people do not realize how Ferraris do not lose their value as hard as regular cars. Even certain models used to gain value in the first year because lists were a few years long. You could flip your ferrari for a $30-50k profit after owning it for 3-6months. Nowadays Ferrari produce larger quantities however, they are still the highest volume and most in demand luxury sport car in the world.
If the car is under 1/4 of your bank account and you have a healthy BR on top of that I see no reason not to do it.
There is not 1 single Bond out there to stick $150k into that is really worth it right now, a short term 6month stock market escapade would be too risky most likely at this moment. So enjoy the near risk free moments of joy with the car. |
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| I have learned from poker that being at the table is not a grind, the grind is living and poker is how I pass the time | |
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RICHI8 United States. Jun 17 2012 14:38. Posts 1341 | | |
I agree it's different for most people. You're doing great at poker but there is a day where you won't. If a luxury/sports car costs more than 10% of your net worth you've paid too much and when buying things like Ferraris it should probably be closer to 1%. Yeah, I get it. You're young and have had a few good months at poker. But tying up a huge portion of your money in a material possession isn't smart just to get a few extra eye balls on you while you drive around and have some hometown friends on Facebook be "jealous."
A former boss (now friend) is a VC and I've met a lot of other VCs and this topic comes up quite often. These guys are worth ~50MM to ~500MM and they wouldn't waste money on a Ferrari. An opportunity to use that money as leverage can come along and you'll miss out on it because it's sitting in your driveway. I guess I'm a bit different than most people on here because I'm more business minded. Ultimately, it's your money, do with it what you want but I think there are enough examples in the poker community alone that should make it obvious that it's a poor decision. |
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Highcard Canada. Jun 17 2012 17:18. Posts 5428 | | |
The only reason why better/great opportunities come around for these VC you speak of is that is their actual expertise. Joe would be completely throwing money into the wind on any investment opportunity that comes his way other than a HS poker game. Of course if I was better suited with some tech start ups/online market places/developers I would not invest 1/4 of my money in a luxury car, however, I am not and probably won't be for a long time, if ever. I also wouldn't buy property right now in Canada. Also Joe is friends with enough HS people now he can get stakes/loans/borrow from lots of people avoiding any urgent need for liquidation.
The biggest mistake people make is expanding out into business ventures/investing in areas where they have no expertise. Sticking to what you know, Poker, and using the excess money for things that you enjoy isn't a poor decision.
There is so few and far between wealth consultants that are worth any $ that just buying mutual funds or w/e isn't ez either.
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| I have learned from poker that being at the table is not a grind, the grind is living and poker is how I pass the time | |
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jvilla777 Australia. Jun 19 2012 08:02. Posts 1348 | | |
i always wonder.. did u build ur bankroll starting in the micros? lol cuz if u did u r ridiculously super ballin!! |
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| longple: ur missing the point! this is an attempt to get away from the bumhuntmentality! | |
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AndrewSong United States. Jun 19 2012 08:34. Posts 2355 | | |
Are you factoring in insurance/maintenance cost in your decision? Because theres a lot that goes into the car besides buying it if you happen to keep it for long term. I drive an entry lvl luxury car(bmw650i) and I've been spending about 10-20k avg/yr on insurance, detailing, maintenance, dents, and most of all scratches/cracked rims. I can only imagine f430 to be worse. |
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