traxamillion

So im reading 2+2 threads about hated shortstackers and they are talking about the "best" shortstackers etc. which got me thinking this morning in the shower.

Everyone always talks about how they are unexploitable etc etc annoying and thats fine but I never really thought about why and if i could understand it it would also help me with my deepstacked game. NOONE will ever discuss the details of shortstacking or WHY its profitable just that it is so I am attempting to figure it out for myself (and not because I want to do it I have fun playing full and want to have solid deepstacked skills in the event that i have to switch to live poker at some point. You can find me posting more in the hand discussion forums than actually playing because I just like to understand the game)

I kinda just assumed they played tight doubled up shoving a tighter range pre than laggy fuller stacks who called them incorrectly (this does acct for some of their winrate im sure but not all of it)

A lot of their winrate must also come from steals and I think this is what makes them hard to beat (I was wondering why imsakidd ran like 16/16 in a datamine i saw - that seemed pretty loose for a range of hands to profitably get it AI preflop with but I realized hes not always ai often going to be opening but then folding). The same as a fullstack will be opening a wide range late so can a shortstack. just like a fullstack can fold to a 3bet so can the shortstack. The difference is it will almost always be incorrect to CALL the 20bb stack because you never really have implied odds unless i guess you are trapping a SS (which i havent given much thought to yet). A shortstack can also effectively resteal via 3bet preflop the same as a fullstack but in many cases will actually have more FE because there are no implied odds due to a 20bb SS 3bet being a shove.

A shortstack then gets to the flop sometimes if called (say shortstack opens co button flats or button and bb flat - dunno how often that should happen) at which point i guess they can just look at pot odds, put their opponent on a range of hands and decide whether or not they have enough equity to get it in or not.

It seems to me that shortstacking breaks the game down into a math problem by leaving out true postflop decisions. A shortstack can easily exploit a fullstack who doesn't adjust but even if a fullstack adjusts to the shortstack if the shortstack is playing right the shortie and the full will be breakeven vs each other.

The variance might be rougher in terms of "buyins" because winrate is lower than that of a good fullstack but in terms of bb im not confident that the swings are any worse because at the end of days you are still getting the same card distribution. -variance is due to winrate so if a shorty wins at 4bb/100 and a fullstack wins at 4bb/100 they should have comparable swings i guess it might just SEEM worse for the shortstack.

Seems like when battling a shortstacker it is kinda gay because you have to beat them at their own game since all you really have is pre and maybe 1 other street. You tighten up too much and you give up too much but if you don't then you play too loose and give away too much.

At the same time im sure its hard for a shortstacker to play optimally. shortstacking is simpler but still doesn't seem as easy to me as a lot of people try to make it out to be because you still have to be pretty good at deducing handranges etc.

And i see how if they got rid of ratholing it wouldnt really work.

I could be totally off the mark on all of this but it seems to make sense and explains why some SS are considered good while others aren't.

0 votes

Comments (20)

Was about to move up to 50nl but cashed my roll down to 200 to move to san diego. Playing my first serious session since the move and i've made 100 bucks in 950 hands of 10nl on ftp. So far so good lol. Haven't played enough this month to get much rakeback but when it comes in i shoudl have enough to play 25nl then hopefully 50nl relatively soon.

Don't have comp down here yet otherwise i'd post pt stuff.

0 votes

Comments (0)

Decided to make a blog just now here cause the lp.net community is my favorite and i figure this will be a good place to vent / discuss things.


I'm a 21 year old student from cal poly university (california). I mostly just drink with my bros and go to class sometimes (taking a break from school atm actually). Trying to get a little more into poker.

This has been my best day so far since i started playing with pockertracker. Up 8 buyins. No graphs yet since ive only played 10k hands and dont fully know to use the program. Looking to move up from 10nl to 25 / 50 soon. Playing overolled at the moment just getting comfortable online.

0 votes

Comments (3)