Full Tilt Gaming License suspended - Page 3

On June 29 2011 12:53 HeroPoker-CEO wrote: Show nested quote + On June 29 2011 12:28 Stim_Abuser wrote: Thanks for your contribution David. Everything you said looks about right to me aside from the confidence that the DOJ will pay back US players. I think that might come from just the distrust I have in the US government. I think there is a good chance they will find a legal way to keep the money. I mean FTP is gonna go under and owe the DOJ the 4 billion or w/e they were fined so DOJ will probably keep everything in the seized accounts. If by some miracle the DOJ decides to pay out to players from the frozen funds it'll probably be 3+ years at least before people start to see any money. I'd say at this point 90% chance no FTP players see any money. Just to say, it took about 9 months before Neteller paid out funds when they were indicted, but it did happen. The people who are at the DOJ are your nation's most highly educated and capable people, in any case with the DOJ, FTP would come to a settlement before an actual trial; to do so would be to risk a very long and expensive trial along with exposure to a very long sentence...

Difference being neteller continued to operate and didn't lose anywhere near their biggest market. FTP has lost it's biggest market by far and had all its pros denounce it and it has recently been suspended from licensing. While the people are the DOJ might be highly capable it doesn't mean they give a shit about poker players. The people on wall street are highly capable... and they fucked us good and hard. The DOJ is looking out for the DOJ far before it's looking out for poker players.

Lets just do an example. Let's say the DOJ has about 1billion frozen of FTP money. FTP clearly doesn't have much of any liquid money right now and they just got suspended. FTP is likely pretty much going under or has to declare bankruptcy. The DOJ is owed 4billion and they have 1billion of FTP money. You think they're going to ship around 200million or more of that 1billion to pay out US players they feel were playing on an illegal network?

On June 29 2011 12:35 dnagardi wrote: I don't understand how could this happend to the 2nd biggest site... is PS safe? whats the difference between PS and FTP? If FTP players dont get their money back it will be sick blow to the online poker industry.

PS is fine: http://www.gov.im/gambling/

On June 29 2011 13:19 Stim_Abuser wrote: Show nested quote + On June 29 2011 12:53 HeroPoker-CEO wrote:   On June 29 2011 12:28 Stim_Abuser wrote: Thanks for your contribution David. Everything you said looks about right to me aside from the confidence that the DOJ will pay back US players. I think that might come from just the distrust I have in the US government. I think there is a good chance they will find a legal way to keep the money. I mean FTP is gonna go under and owe the DOJ the 4 billion or w/e they were fined so DOJ will probably keep everything in the seized accounts. If by some miracle the DOJ decides to pay out to players from the frozen funds it'll probably be 3+ years at least before people start to see any money. I'd say at this point 90% chance no FTP players see any money. Just to say, it took about 9 months before Neteller paid out funds when they were indicted, but it did happen. The people who are at the DOJ are your nation's most highly educated and capable people, in any case with the DOJ, FTP would come to a settlement before an actual trial; to do so would be to risk a very long and expensive trial along with exposure to a very long sentence... Difference being neteller continued to operate and didn't lose anywhere near their biggest market. FTP has lost it's biggest market by far and had all its pros denounce it and it has recently been suspended from licensing. While the people are the DOJ might be highly capable it doesn't mean they give a shit about poker players. The people on wall street are highly capable... and they fucked us good and hard. The DOJ is looking out for the DOJ far before it's looking out for poker players. Lets just do an example. Let's say the DOJ has about 1billion frozen of FTP money. FTP clearly doesn't have much of any liquid money right now and they just got suspended. FTP is likely pretty much going under or has to declare bankruptcy. The DOJ is owed 4billion and they have 1billion of FTP money. You think they're going to ship around 200million or more of that 1billion to pay out US players they feel were playing on an illegal network?

Well, reality is, there are so many different scenarios, but this is what I would tell my pros and have said. The key point here is that the fine is not owed to DOJ, it something of a number to be negotiated and there are various factors to the final settlement. If the DOJ's concern is not financial, it is of course political in nature. Now there many be financially related or motivated actions, but ultimately they are a political/legal enforcement entity. Thus, if FTP is not insolvent, DOJ will squeeze them and FTP will negotiate hard back to get a settlement that would allow them to pay and still continue a viable business. If FTP is insolvent then these money will be owing and held against those who are indicted and will lead to jail time etc, but the player funds themselves would not be considered the property of FTP to use to pay the fine with. Now, of course you can see it both ways,will DOJ see that money as player funds or FTP operational funds? But, whatever the DOJ denotes as player funds, they will not touch for the fine.

My point is that this 'fine' is really a political tool to bend FTP to the DOJ's will, it's not used as a financial debt held against the company, although it appears that way. Now, you may think that I'm reaching here, but in actuality, dealing at this level/negotiating with the DOJ is a highly complex process that only a few professionals would be able manage well. I'm just mentioning that if you give me the benefit of the doubt here and for the moment see the fine as a political tool rather than monies owning, then I would say, for the DOJ simply to take player funds outright would create unnecessary collateral political damage. It is no coincidence that the DOJ 'allowed' PS/FTP the option to have the ability to pay out players in the US to shift the political and perceived public responsibility to them instead of the DOJ once American players started to go public in media etc.

That being said, I agree with you that if/when FTP does go insolvent, the situation becomes so complex on many levels that all bets are off on the outcome, my only point is just framing the context is how the DOJ uses the 'fine'; it just wouldn't make sense for them to purposely screw the players after FTP has been ground to the dust and I'm saying that as former Korean gov't agency negotiator.

I'm still pretty confident FTP will end up paying out its customers. There have been a lot of rumors about Binion buying out Bitars shares in FTP, and Durrr had tweeted that there was some really good news coming soon.

wow so sick

On June 29 2011 14:01 HeroPoker-CEO wrote: Show nested quote + On June 29 2011 13:19 Stim_Abuser wrote:   On June 29 2011 12:53 HeroPoker-CEO wrote:   On June 29 2011 12:28 Stim_Abuser wrote: Thanks for your contribution David. Everything you said looks about right to me aside from the confidence that the DOJ will pay back US players. I think that might come from just the distrust I have in the US government. I think there is a good chance they will find a legal way to keep the money. I mean FTP is gonna go under and owe the DOJ the 4 billion or w/e they were fined so DOJ will probably keep everything in the seized accounts. If by some miracle the DOJ decides to pay out to players from the frozen funds it'll probably be 3+ years at least before people start to see any money. I'd say at this point 90% chance no FTP players see any money. Just to say, it took about 9 months before Neteller paid out funds when they were indicted, but it did happen. The people who are at the DOJ are your nation's most highly educated and capable people, in any case with the DOJ, FTP would come to a settlement before an actual trial; to do so would be to risk a very long and expensive trial along with exposure to a very long sentence... Difference being neteller continued to operate and didn't lose anywhere near their biggest market. FTP has lost it's biggest market by far and had all its pros denounce it and it has recently been suspended from licensing. While the people are the DOJ might be highly capable it doesn't mean they give a shit about poker players. The people on wall street are highly capable... and they fucked us good and hard. The DOJ is looking out for the DOJ far before it's looking out for poker players. Lets just do an example. Let's say the DOJ has about 1billion frozen of FTP money. FTP clearly doesn't have much of any liquid money right now and they just got suspended. FTP is likely pretty much going under or has to declare bankruptcy. The DOJ is owed 4billion and they have 1billion of FTP money. You think they're going to ship around 200million or more of that 1billion to pay out US players they feel were playing on an illegal network? Well, reality is, there are so many different scenarios, but this is what I would tell my pros and have said. The key point here is that the fine is not owed to DOJ, it something of a number to be negotiated and there are various factors to the final settlement. If the DOJ's concern is not financial, it is of course political in nature. Now there many be financially related or motivated actions, but ultimately they are a political/legal enforcement entity. Thus, if FTP is not insolvent, DOJ will squeeze them and FTP will negotiate hard back to get a settlement that would allow them to pay and still continue a viable business. If FTP is insolvent then these money will be owing and held against those who are indicted and will lead to jail time etc, but the player funds themselves would not be considered the property of FTP to use to pay the fine with. Now, of course you can see it both ways,will DOJ see that money as player funds or FTP operational funds? But, whatever the DOJ denotes as player funds, they will not touch for the fine. My point is that this 'fine' is really a political tool to bend FTP to the DOJ's will, it's not used as a financial debt held against the company, although it appears that way. Now, you may think that I'm reaching here, but in actuality, dealing at this level/negotiating with the DOJ is a highly complex process that only a few professionals would be able manage well. I'm just mentioning that if you give me the benefit of the doubt here and for the moment see the fine as a political tool rather than monies owning, then I would say, for the DOJ simply to take player funds outright would create unnecessary collateral political damage. It is no coincidence that the DOJ 'allowed' PS/FTP the option to have the ability to pay out players in the US to shift the political and perceived public responsibility to them instead of the DOJ once American players started to go public in media etc. That being said, I agree with you that if/when FTP does go insolvent, the situation becomes so complex on many levels that all bets are off on the outcome, my only point is just framing the context is how the DOJ uses the 'fine'; it just wouldn't make sense for them to purposely screw the players after FTP has been ground to the dust and I'm saying that as former Korean gov't agency negotiator.

I was under the impression that the entire political purpose behind the DOJ attacking online poker was indeed financial gain. There isn't really any other political purpose. There isn't like a bunch of voters to gain from this or anything of the like. I don't see any political machinism behind it.

I also highly doubt no matter what that it'll come off as the DOJ not paying players. It'll come off that the DOJ seized their illegal operating funds and that FTP didn't pay the players.

Maybe you're right and maybe I'm pessimistic... but considering how bad our government has fucked us, how corrupt it is and how greedy it is I'm gonna remain skeptical until I see a statement by the DOJ saying otherwise.

On June 29 2011 14:23 Bigbobm wrote: I'm still pretty confident FTP will end up paying out its customers. There have been a lot of rumors about Binion buying out Bitars shares in FTP, and Durrr had tweeted that there was some really good news coming soon.

i disagree.

from this point on... FTP players (US and non-US) will have lesser chance on getting their money back from that site.

no license? no payment processor/bank will ever make transactions with them.

FTP re-opens with new t&c soon? look at how many players click on the withdrawal button. this is gonna look like a bank run.

can FTP get a new license? maybe... but i doubt it. maybe next year when all cases with the DOJ are settled.

are the owners/execs thinking about paying the players back? highly doubt it. they are thinking about an exit strategy and saving their own asses right now.

durrrr tweeted something good? fuck durrrr.

oh... and again. UNTIL FTP PUTS PLAYERS FUNDS SAFELY IN A SEGREGATED AND PROTECTED ACCOUNT LIKE WHAT POKERSTARS DOES, DO NOT PLAY AT FULLTILT POKER!

On June 29 2011 14:23 Bigbobm wrote: I'm still pretty confident FTP will end up paying out its customers. There have been a lot of rumors about Binion buying out Bitars shares in FTP, and Durrr had tweeted that there was some really good news coming soon.

chances someone investing in FTP at this point are going even lower
if by any chance they receive their license back everyone will start withdrawing their bankroll out of FTP immediatly due to trust issues with the company - or in other words FTP will collapse
also the larger part of their market were americans to whom they wont be able to offer their services anymore so they were already screwed in 1st place and now shit got even worse

shit... i won't even put money on stars until that shit with the DOJ is over with. what more on FTP.

stars will always be safest amongst the unsafe
still, makes me think of probably ditching any SNE delusions i had, i dont wanna grind my whole life feeling like poop breaking even then waking up to something similar again. any site which has some * in their legitimacy does not deserve my time and money

On June 29 2011 17:51 DvoBoardRider wrote: Show nested quote + On June 29 2011 14:23 Bigbobm wrote: I'm still pretty confident FTP will end up paying out its customers. There have been a lot of rumors about Binion buying out Bitars shares in FTP, and Durrr had tweeted that there was some really good news coming soon. i disagree. from this point on... FTP players (US and non-US) will have lesser chance on getting their money back from that site. no license? no payment processor/bank will ever make transactions with them. FTP re-opens with new t&c soon? look at how many players click on the withdrawal button. this is gonna look like a bank run. can FTP get a new license? maybe... but i doubt it. maybe next year when all cases with the DOJ are settled. are the owners/execs thinking about paying the players back? highly doubt it. they are thinking about an exit strategy and saving their own asses right now. durrrr tweeted something good? fuck durrrr. he prolly got his money out after black friday.

fixed my own post.

Durrr promised 1M if FTP ran with bankrolls and he would also lose his FTP contract etc, he probably is more concerned and would lose more than you.

On June 29 2011 22:58 Baal wrote: Durrr promised 1M if FTP ran with bankrolls and he would also lose his FTP contract etc, he probably is more concerned and would lose more than you.

Yes he said $1m + he losses contracts + he said he will donate ALL the money he was paid by FTP, so if all that happens, god fucking hell that sounds worse then when he ran into Isildurr

tom dwan was going to announce some "good news" in his twitter yesterday, then a couple hours later FTP gambling license gets revoked
Nothing has been heard from him since.

some poker pundits suggest he probably was going to announce how much he saved 20% on his car insurance
lol

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/29/...ssip/waiting-dwans-good-news-1060117/

On June 29 2011 22:58 Baal wrote: Durrr promised 1M if FTP ran with bankrolls and he would also lose his FTP contract etc, he probably is more concerned and would lose more than you.

is that supposed to make people playing at FTP feel safer?

oh.. and durrrr loses more? the fuck do i care.

On June 29 2011 23:15 DvoBoardRider wrote: Show nested quote + On June 29 2011 22:58 Baal wrote: Durrr promised 1M if FTP ran with bankrolls and he would also lose his FTP contract etc, he probably is more concerned and would lose more than you. is that supposed to make people playing at FTP feel safer?

no i was just pointing out how pathetic your attempts to belittle him where, when he has showed an amazing moral integrity not many people have.

are you his wife?

remember when Joe Sebok promised to get to the bottom of the UB scandal, get HH and expose those responsible
what amazing moral integrity he had.