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jordan peterson phenomena - Page 14

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Stroggoz   New Zealand. Apr 23 2019 04:14. Posts 4401

I would hope there is as little bias as possible from my pov, and none from the analytic tradition, which i dislike most of. Again, like i've said before i don't understand the point of much of analytic philosophy, the way they approach 'theories' just seems pointless to me. I really don't like much of analytic or continental but there is valuable work in both of course. My problem is just with the profession as a whole and their approaches.

Whatever value that may be gained reading zizek, and i have gained very little, it doesn't stop his scholarship from lacking standards and coherency, and his overall behavior being like a charlatan. He is a very avid lier as well. Here is an example in the 'whatever fued', he had:

Someone asked Chomsky about him so he casually called him out on what he was; how did Zizek respond? As any pseudo intellectual would, he simply used the lies made up about chomsky and the cambodian 'genocide denial', then called him out as a genocide denier, and saying 'judgement from the facts he had at the time', didn't matter, and he 'never knew anyone so empirically wrong'. Really? This should indicate how much of a serious scholar Zizek is, not serious at all, and not a serious commentator on politics either, with his vote for trump recommendations and edgy stalin posters.

Peterson's knowledge of marx appears to be 0, and not much better can be said by those i've read in the post modern tradition. I've read all of mar'xs major works except for grundrisse, i think. It's sociology and economics, and should be interpreted that way. Lacan and zizek seem to have made a fruedian/literary analysis of marx, that is based on complete bs. Like, making these wide-ranging psychological interpretations of simple terminology marx used. It's very similar to the stuff in fashionable nonsense and how they were misinterpreting mathematics terminology, or reading a bunch of bs into the terms there. If your going to read capital, it's an analysis of capitalism, so interpret it as such.

I didn't watch the debate but read some of the commentary on currentaffairs.org. It really sounds like it was exactly what i would have expected it to be.

supposed to have greenstar not braceletLast edit: 23/04/2019 06:31

Baalim   Mexico. Apr 23 2019 08:29. Posts 32956

actually I like both, obviously they are both quite flawed but I wouldn't call them charlatans, but I do appreciate the boldness and "fuck your couch" attitude


FYI when I said I dont see value in gender studies I meant it as career branch of the humanities (and other majors of alike leaning) which are not scientific and are just indoctrination camps in the identity politics machine, I do value actual scientific study of gender from a psychological or anthropological perspective.

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Big_Rob_isback   United States. Apr 23 2019 09:40. Posts 197

I know I made this thread, but it wasn't anywhere near what I expected. I live in a super liberal city, Seattle. I listened to a few Jordan Peterson videos for normal common sense ideas like differences between genders for example. Things have gone a bit batshit crazy with the pc culture, i fucking hate it.

Anyway, this wasn't supposed to be a thread about him being some giant intellectual, I never saw him as that. I just saw him as a buzzsaw to PC culture that I can't stand to listen to anymore. I think if you are looking for an intellectual, than Peterson definitely isn't a place to go. I just like that people like him are standing up for something like: Inequity does not mean inequality. I guess if you don't live in a super liberal city you might not understand the need for someone like Peterson to be famous???

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RiKD    United States. Apr 23 2019 17:22. Posts 5606

This was probably the highlight for me so far.

"What is a post-modern neo-Marxist?"

"It's not a rhetorical question for politely saying you are an idiot who doesn't know what you are talking about."

https://youtu.be/WGRC5AA1wF0?t=8598


lebowski   Greece. Apr 23 2019 21:48. Posts 9097

You may have your own personal idea of Hell. Mine is an eternity trapped in a room with Jordan Peterson and Slavoj Žižek. I do not like these men. I consider Peterson a toxic charlatan and Žižek a humiliating embarrassment to the left. I believe they both show how far you can get in public life without having anything of value to say, if you’re a white man with a PhD who speaks confidently and incomprehensibly. In fact, this is not really a debate at all, because these men are nearly identical as far as I am concerned. I sincerely believe that history will look back on this moment as a dark human low point.


I found this in currentaffairs.org stroggos mentioned, written by the guy who commented live on the debate. I really didn't expect the race card here lol
A confident white man with a PhD is all it takes? Zizek and Peterson are the same? He should be thoroughly investigating why masses of people are gathering around figures he despises instead of doing whatever this sort of oversimplification is

new shit has come to light... a-and... shit! man...Last edit: 23/04/2019 21:48

Loco   Canada. Apr 24 2019 02:25. Posts 19952

I read Nathan and Mexie's live tweets on the debate and of course they aren't wrong, it was a shitshow and there's no reason to watch it other than for entertainment value. You can't get to the bottom of anything from this kind of event so it was entirely predictable that there would be little substance. I think it was funny to see how much respect Peterson seems to have for this Marxist in person while he was vitriolic with a Zizek quote bot on the internet when this all started. Maybe he was just in a particularly good mood. He's certainly happy that he had to do almost zero work for this big pay day (he read the Manifesto and produced his talk in one day right before the debate).

The thing is, it's not the only gear that Zizek has, he's done some original work so I can't consider him a charlatan because a charlatan is someone with zero original thought who sells snakeoil. Nathan dislikes him as a political figure and I mostly agree with him here, but that says nothing about his philosophical and psychoanalytical ability which is what he has degrees for (while Nathan is a sociology grad student). I also agree with Stroggoz that there are major issues with academia as it is, but I'm not quite going as far in thinking that my opinions of what has value and what doesn't should be the gold standard or the implication that academic consensus has little meaning. I prefer assuming that I don't know enough to judge most things and that the people who have spent a lot of time studying them can have something to teach me.


  A confident white man with a PhD is all it takes? Zizek and Peterson are the same? He should be thoroughly investigating why masses of people are gathering around figures he despises instead of doing whatever this sort of oversimplification is



People have always been attracted to spectacles. I think a sociology grad who writes for a good leftist publication has a very good idea as to why, but he's also writing this sort of thing to entertain people. Apparently some people paid upward of $1500 to attend this live. It's easy to see that this is ridiculous. When the monetary value of something and the actual value of what was produced differ so drastically, I think it's fair to call a spade a spade, but it is indeed very telling that these are the specific voices that are getting amplified on a topic like the binary opposition of capitalism versus communism and its relationship to personal happiness.

When I watch debates and lectures that are happening in France, it's like a completely different world. People are much less interested in spectacle and even the YouTube comment sections are much less antagonistic. People are a lot more worried about solving problems and deepening their understanding of things from what I've noticed. Privilege plays a big role in what we do and how much time we can put towards being entertained/having insubstantial discussions. I guess that's what Nathan meant by the "race card" you brought up.

Those who make a peaceful revolution impossible, will make a violent revolution inevitable.Last edit: 24/04/2019 02:58

RiKD    United States. Apr 24 2019 03:11. Posts 5606

I watched the whole debate. First night I fell asleep about half way through Zizek's opening statements literally drooling on myself. I eventually soldiered on. It was not worth it. Peterson and Zizek are not the same but they almost amounted to being the same in this debate. This spectacle. That's what it was. A spectacle or a debacle. I actually thought Zizek had some good things to say. I loved it when he challenged Peterson on what exactly is a PoMo neo-Marxist? The debate needed more than that. Not just agreeing with all of Peterson's bullshit. And, boy, was there a lot of bullshit. But, just the same bullshit he's been peddling since Maps of Meaning as far as I can tell.


RiKD    United States. Apr 24 2019 03:17. Posts 5606

Now, it's time for a step up! It's time to watch the Joe Rogan Experience with Russell Brand!... (at least it will probably be funny?)


Stroggoz   New Zealand. Apr 24 2019 04:06. Posts 4401

https://www.currentaffairs.org/2019/0...ould-have-replied-to-jordan-peterson, this seemed like the more substantive commentary. So the jist of it was peterson has only ever read the manifesto out of marx's works, and zizek basically rambled about various topics and didn't respond to him. And that's a good question lebowski, why do people gather around figures like peterson and zizek? He has written an article on that too, concerning peterson. I linked it at the start of this thread. But the major factor i think is there is simply little else provided to the public in terms of intellectuals. The other is that is indeed a spectacle that draws in more people, at least initially, than a well reasoned and long argument. It took a long time for real activists like howard zinn or chomsky to get any support, rather than the instant success peterson has had.

I think race does matter, to a large extent, actually, coupled with class interests. There are a lot of black men, and women who comment on politics with important things to say, but are given little media attention. I'd much rather hear a debate by any of the many black acitivists who comment on the incarceration system for example. There are a few that have broken through and had success, like cornel west, so there has been improvement.

supposed to have greenstar not braceletLast edit: 24/04/2019 04:13

Santafairy   Korea (South). Apr 24 2019 13:32. Posts 1517


  On April 22 2019 22:22 Stroggoz wrote:
Show nested quote +



you could just as easily pick an article on computation complexity theory. There are topics written on basically everything in university 99% of them will appear to be completely meaningless to someone unfamiliar with the topic. I've only ever seen 30 seconds of peterson in video but he said the most outrageous lie; "attempts to reduce inequality have never worked in history", ok, so i assumed he was a charlatan after that because he knows nothing of history and speaks so confidently about it. It's really easy to spot some charlatans. If they make factual claims, then u ask yourself if that's true or not.

I'm not criticizing that it's esoteric, but that it's bullshit. The fact that a system can be complicated and layered and difficult to understand and full of specific verbiage is not evidence per se it's a useful endeavor

Math is awesome, black anality isn't


  On April 24 2019 02:17 RiKD wrote:
Now, it's time for a step up! It's time to watch the Joe Rogan Experience with Russell Brand!... (at least it will probably be funny?)


I've warmed up to Russell Brand who I used to like for simple wit and charisma but thought was facially retarded when it came to politics

but on JR he seemed a little mellowed out and in many points I could see where he was coming from, his earlier retarded ideas come from struggling with serious and ignored problems and contradictions in our society. Maybe something about being a father also, you can see he's getting like a more dad bod physique

It seems to be not very profitable in the long run to play those kind of hands. - Gus HansenLast edit: 24/04/2019 13:32

RiKD    United States. Apr 24 2019 16:46. Posts 5606


  On April 24 2019 12:32 Santafairy wrote:
Show nested quote +


I'm not criticizing that it's esoteric, but that it's bullshit. The fact that a system can be complicated and layered and difficult to understand and full of specific verbiage is not evidence per se it's a useful endeavor

Math is awesome, black anality isn't


  On April 24 2019 02:17 RiKD wrote:
Now, it's time for a step up! It's time to watch the Joe Rogan Experience with Russell Brand!... (at least it will probably be funny?)


I've warmed up to Russell Brand who I used to like for simple wit and charisma but thought was facially retarded when it came to politics

but on JR he seemed a little mellowed out and in many points I could see where he was coming from, his earlier retarded ideas come from struggling with serious and ignored problems and contradictions in our society. Maybe something about being a father also, you can see he's getting like a more dad bod physique



Yeah, I too liked Brand for his charisma and wit and then he became sort of a hero figure for me as someone who got clean and sober, had a bout with Hollywood and fame, and has kind of gotten to the other side of all of that. I really enjoyed his TREWS series and I think his book Revolution is a decent gateway to thinking about Revolution in a good way. He does seem a lot more mellow so far on JRE. I think in the past he was drinking large amounts of caffeine and was a lot more excitable.


Baalim   Mexico. Apr 25 2019 07:35. Posts 32956

that makes 3 of us, i liked him in the last podcast he has matured a lot

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shootair   United States. May 24 2019 17:04. Posts 429

This thread is filled with leftists, socialists, losers. God help you all


Spitfiree   Bulgaria. May 24 2019 18:22. Posts 8812

Do you really wanna end an insult with "god help you all" ? Really? :D


Loco   Canada. May 24 2019 19:02. Posts 19952


  One brutal sentence captures what a disaster money in America has become

"The bottom half of Americans combined have a negative net worth," Ben Steverman wrote in a recent Bloomberg article.

https://www.timesunion.com/technology...captures-what-a-disaster-13882763.php




Goddamn socialists in the US government ruining America, amirite?

Also, seeing as how this was posted in the JP thread, it reminded me of something. One regular poster on /r/JordanPeterson admitted that he gave $1500 to Peterson through monthly Patreon payments in order to get the chance to have a Skype chat with him (that was the perk). But since there were so many people in line, there were no guarantees. You basically have to keep donating a few hundred every months in the hopes that you'll eventually be next.

Now the thing is, that person was unemployed and was giving the remaining of his money in order to get this chance. He convinced himself that it was his way out of his situation. Think about that. Giving your remaining $1500 to a millionaire who you might never hear from in the hopes of "making it", like a light bulb would suddenly turn on and he would become a "success" because he spoke to him directly. That's one of the dangers of cults of personality like these.

Those who make a peaceful revolution impossible, will make a violent revolution inevitable.Last edit: 24/05/2019 19:11

Spitfiree   Bulgaria. May 25 2019 00:30. Posts 8812

I mean, its JP's fault that the guy is a moron? Really?

Anyone donating money to another person in pure hopes that that other person will change their lives is just fucking retarded. I could make a good case how its even more retarded than hoping to become a millionaire through the lottery. I also dont recall hearing JP promising to change people's lives or turn them to an overnight success or anything even close to that. He isn't mimicking Tony Robbins

 Last edit: 25/05/2019 00:34

Baalim   Mexico. May 25 2019 09:34. Posts 32956

exactly, JPB didn't ask for this and if he knew he would probalby talk to the guy/give his money back, its such a ridiculous smear attempt, people go broke on many idiotic things, that is the danger.. people being idiots

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Santafairy   Korea (South). May 25 2019 16:18. Posts 1517


  On May 24 2019 18:02 Loco wrote:
Show nested quote +




Goddamn socialists in the US government ruining America, amirite?

Also, seeing as how this was posted in the JP thread, it reminded me of something. One regular poster on /r/JordanPeterson admitted that he gave $1500 to Peterson through monthly Patreon payments in order to get the chance to have a Skype chat with him (that was the perk). But since there were so many people in line, there were no guarantees. You basically have to keep donating a few hundred every months in the hopes that you'll eventually be next.

Now the thing is, that person was unemployed and was giving the remaining of his money in order to get this chance. He convinced himself that it was his way out of his situation. Think about that. Giving your remaining $1500 to a millionaire who you might never hear from in the hopes of "making it", like a light bulb would suddenly turn on and he would become a "success" because he spoke to him directly. That's one of the dangers of cults of personality like these.

so I guess this is your first time learning about gambling

It seems to be not very profitable in the long run to play those kind of hands. - Gus Hansen 

Loco   Canada. May 25 2019 19:49. Posts 19952


  On May 24 2019 23:30 Spitfiree wrote:
I mean, its JP's fault that the guy is a moron? Really?

Anyone donating money to another person in pure hopes that that other person will change their lives is just fucking retarded. I could make a good case how its even more retarded than hoping to become a millionaire through the lottery. I also dont recall hearing JP promising to change people's lives or turn them to an overnight success or anything even close to that. He isn't mimicking Tony Robbins



Where the fuck did I say that it was Jordan Peterson's fault? Have I not been clear on this forum a hundred times that I don't think in terms of single-agent responsibility? That's JP's shtick, ironically. The whole point of being a leftist is that you have learned to contextualize things and look at structural issues that are preconditions for behavior. There is no magical essence of responsibility that lie here or there in the internal soup of biological agents.

And no, it's not 'retarded'. What's 'retarded' is constantly using ableist language in your thirties and assuming you are more intelligent than others and that this is why you don't fall prey to things. What it actually is is desperation and the world is filled with it. And you are just one bad day away from it at any given time. You're not special. It's what systems of oppression and artificial scarcity breed by necessity. When it hits, it's normal to want to hold on to something, to the possibility of turning things around, and that was this one specific person's idea. Again, within the context of the cult of personality around him, it isn't surprising.

Those who make a peaceful revolution impossible, will make a violent revolution inevitable. 

Loco   Canada. May 25 2019 20:01. Posts 19952


  On May 25 2019 08:34 Baalim wrote:
exactly, JPB didn't ask for this and if he knew he would probalby talk to the guy/give his money back, its such a ridiculous smear attempt, people go broke on many idiotic things, that is the danger.. people being idiots



Yes and I suppose this is also a smear attempt and not just typical capitalist opportunistic exploitation.

Tl;dr for the thread regarding a bullshit university program:

OP's application is accepted (he put in 20 hours of work), but there's a 72 hour decision window
OP has questions regarding:

-financial assistance, seeing as he's currently 75k in debt and the program costs 65k,
-he would have to uproot his life for the program,
-what Peterson's level of involvement is

OP: "I did not apply for this Fellowship because of Acton, but because of Dr Peterson's endorsement."

Acton president doesn't reply or call back. Communication from their side is minimal and slow.

Finally, Acton CEO responds: "I applaud your skepticism, however, it doesn't sound as if this is the right opportunity for you."

Regarding OP's questions: "We don't know many of the answers because emergent growth is unpredictable and we'll be co-creating the future as we go."


-----


Also this is what you get for $150 (on top of normal ticket price) when you get VIP for one of his talks:

"I wish I had known ahead of time ha. You won't really have a meet and greet with a VIP ticket. You will get in a line and get your photo taken with him. I was early in the line and it was made clear that we weren't to hold up the line so I didn't take advantage of it. But when you go up you'll have a second when you shake hands to say something, but they will push you right along."

You get 30 seconds at most with the guy for a picture. For $150. Delightful!

----

"So I went on the site, filled out the form entirely randomly, put my name down as something like “w33dsmoker”, put options in the boxes that weren’t even possible, repeated this three times. Every single application had the same thing “wow congratulations auto forwarded to next round”, top candidate.
But it’s not even just that.
This course starts in February, and seems to be pretty much full time. For a man who’s preaching responsibility and getting your life together this seems like a rather large contradiction in terms. “Please uproot your entire life in 3 months”.

https://www.reddit.com/r/enoughpeters...ize_the_peterson_fellowshipacton_mba/

Those who make a peaceful revolution impossible, will make a violent revolution inevitable.Last edit: 26/05/2019 04:49

 
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