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jordan peterson phenomena - Page 12 |
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RiKD   United States. May 27 2018 03:41. Posts 8445 | | |
| On May 27 2018 00:16 Baalim wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 26 2018 21:30 RiKD wrote:
| On May 26 2018 19:05 Baalim wrote:
| On May 26 2018 15:55 RiKD wrote:
| On May 26 2018 06:09 Baalim wrote:
| On May 26 2018 05:13 Loco wrote:
Honestly bro, you just haven't given capitalism a good enough try. Always remember that you're invited to the party. |
Honestly bro, you just haven't given communism a good enough try. Always remember that you're invited to the party
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Why am I not surprised that you predictably reduce communism to this. It's a Jordan Peterson play. A Fox News play. A Donald Trump play. I guess because it works. Humans don't understand complexity. Just to add a little bit to the picture there were ruthless psychopathic leaders and bureaucracy involved. Now, I realize that in today's world there will still likely be ruthless psychopathic leaders and bureaucracy involved that's why you start small. You start with groups and syndicates. There are no leaders only trusted servants. There is rotation of service. The syndicate should have no outside opinion nor should endorse or oppose anything outside of the syndicate's common interest.
AA gets a lot wrong but it gets the 12 Traditions right:
The 12 Traditions
Disregard the "God" stuff. It is really just about an important common interest.
The fact the syndicate gets any alcoholic sober is a miracle. The fact that a bunch of selfish, self-centered fucks can work together for a common interest and it runs pretty smoothly is another miracle. It's been around since 1939. It brings me hope that similar anarchic syndicates can form around other common interests. |
I reduced communism the same way capitalism was reduced, I just returned the favor with the exact same words.
AA is garbage in every possible way ffs. |
Quite a difference in rhetoric. Stalinism does not equal Marxism.
$50 billion could end world hunger and homelessness in the United States. How come nobody has done it? The billionaires can even start their own charities so they don't have to give to the state.
Did you even read the 12 traditions?
I made a link between AA and protests. There is the opportunity for great connection, solidarity, and fellowship. |
The US budget on foreign aid is 42billion, obviously 50 billion wouldn't do shit for world poverty whoever came up with that is delusional.
Syndicates where I came from mean corruption, violence and political power |
What do you do with the masses of exploited people in an unregulated free market? What do you do with the disabled? The inequality would just increase. It would go back to industrial revolution times except in the future all those jobs will be automated. I remember at one of my accounts if it weren't for the unions we would have had a robot in there in a heartbeat to replace those jobs. But, if it weren't for those unions those guys would be in there 80 hrs a week at sub sustenance wages, no safety, etc. Robot goes in. My multinational makes more of a profit, the multinational steel mill makes more of a profit, bricklayers are left scrounging for outside red brick work, I get a pat on the back and a harder job. Trickle down isn't a thing bro.
Re: Syndicates
I know you don't like the dictionary game but:
Syndicate
a group of individuals or organizations combined to promote some common interest.
I should really make the distinction anarchist syndicate.
Yes, syndicates will form for the common interests of crime and exploiting people. I would imagine it is organized by fierce dominance hierarchies.
That's not what I am talking about. I am talking about anarcho-syndicalism. |
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Baalim   Mexico. May 27 2018 04:58. Posts 34246 | | |
Those masses would be much smaller in a free-market.
What do you mean with what would I do with the disabled? the economy provides them a job, probalby from a humanitarian enterprise like many do and employ disabled people.
In my utopia philangrophy would be encouraged as a social idel, Gates and Buffett have donated about 50billion combined, in the face of a society where there is no government to take (bad) care of people ironically the rich that loco sees as evil opressors will take care of it, money has no utilitarian value after a couple hundred million, and sure some asshats will horde but a true free market is very fluid, these empires will falll like Blockbuster did, like GM did, like Bank of America did etc, sadly the state saved those two and many many more which robs society of its class fluidity, meaning it keeps the rich rich isntead of allowing the natural cycle of wealth. |
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Loco   Canada. May 27 2018 07:42. Posts 20963 | | |
| On May 27 2018 00:16 Baalim wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 26 2018 21:30 RiKD wrote:
| On May 26 2018 19:05 Baalim wrote:
| On May 26 2018 15:55 RiKD wrote:
| On May 26 2018 06:09 Baalim wrote:
| On May 26 2018 05:13 Loco wrote:
Honestly bro, you just haven't given capitalism a good enough try. Always remember that you're invited to the party. |
Honestly bro, you just haven't given communism a good enough try. Always remember that you're invited to the party
|
Why am I not surprised that you predictably reduce communism to this. It's a Jordan Peterson play. A Fox News play. A Donald Trump play. I guess because it works. Humans don't understand complexity. Just to add a little bit to the picture there were ruthless psychopathic leaders and bureaucracy involved. Now, I realize that in today's world there will still likely be ruthless psychopathic leaders and bureaucracy involved that's why you start small. You start with groups and syndicates. There are no leaders only trusted servants. There is rotation of service. The syndicate should have no outside opinion nor should endorse or oppose anything outside of the syndicate's common interest.
AA gets a lot wrong but it gets the 12 Traditions right:
The 12 Traditions
Disregard the "God" stuff. It is really just about an important common interest.
The fact the syndicate gets any alcoholic sober is a miracle. The fact that a bunch of selfish, self-centered fucks can work together for a common interest and it runs pretty smoothly is another miracle. It's been around since 1939. It brings me hope that similar anarchic syndicates can form around other common interests. |
I reduced communism the same way capitalism was reduced, I just returned the favor with the exact same words.
AA is garbage in every possible way ffs. |
Quite a difference in rhetoric. Stalinism does not equal Marxism.
$50 billion could end world hunger and homelessness in the United States. How come nobody has done it? The billionaires can even start their own charities so they don't have to give to the state.
Did you even read the 12 traditions?
I made a link between AA and protests. There is the opportunity for great connection, solidarity, and fellowship. |
The US budget on foreign aid is 42billion, obviously 50 billion wouldn't do shit for world poverty whoever came up with that is delusional.
Syndicates where I came from mean corruption, violence and political power |
You have to look at the reverse flows (read the article I linked, "aid in reverse'') to understand why this foreign aid budget is not some net amount of money that's simply coming in to help the poor as most people believe. The UN figure to solve world hunger is actually $30 billion USD. But even if we assume that it's somehow not enough (and we should), twice that amount would almost certainly be. But it wouldn't do anything about the rest of the structural injustices that have made hunger a problem in the first place. And it's not like billionaires would really have to spend any money since 40% of the food we produce already goes to waste. But that's how the system works, you have to put a lock on your food supplies and let it rot while people starve otherwise it would collapse. |
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fuck I should just sell some of my Pokemon cards, if no one stakes that is what I will have to do - lostaccount | Last edit: 27/05/2018 07:56 |
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Loco   Canada. May 27 2018 08:23. Posts 20963 | | |
| On May 27 2018 03:58 Baalim wrote:
Those masses would be much smaller in a free-market.
What do you mean with what would I do with the disabled? the economy provides them a job, probalby from a humanitarian enterprise like many do and employ disabled people.
In my utopia philangrophy would be encouraged as a social idel, Gates and Buffett have donated about 50billion combined, in the face of a society where there is no government to take (bad) care of people ironically the rich that loco sees as evil opressors will take care of it, money has no utilitarian value after a couple hundred million, and sure some asshats will horde but a true free market is very fluid, these empires will falll like Blockbuster did, like GM did, like Bank of America did etc, sadly the state saved those two and many many more which robs society of its class fluidity, meaning it keeps the rich rich isntead of allowing the natural cycle of wealth. |
Yeah, the state saved them, we agree that this is not good, but it also saved the lives of the people who are on the other end of such drastic inequality. That's the thing with the state, it can only be gotten rid of for the good of the community if there aren't massive inequalities of power which are inherent to capitalism. You can't blame the state for the atomization of the individual who is merely a laborer/consumer either, but this is precisely what erodes social solidarity and feelings of fraternity with your kind. It's only when the values and the labor is shared among the community that people do not turn on one another, and we can see this historically, while your utopia has truly no historic precedent. We have to assume everything given from theoretical constructs alone. And I think when we look around the world to support the anarcho-capitalist assumptions, we cannot find the data to support them. If state interference is always bad and should be minimized as much as possible-- if the state is truly the enemy-- why are the Nordic countries doing so much better than the US from a public health and sustainability standpoint?
Speaking of which, there are studies that show that the more wealthy you become, the less empathy you have for others. It's pretty hard data to ignore. How do you combat that and incentivize empathy? Or are people just some sort of utilitarian robots in your utopia? It seems to me like the main (if not the only) reason the Buffets and the Gates would give up some of their money is so that the system doesn't collapse and they remain on top for as long as possible. It's only a deep narcissism that drives them to "help" others. It is in effect having control over others, even down to who lives and who dies. It's like being a doctor. A high percentage of doctors are psychopaths, this has been well studied. Should it surprise us? As a surgeon you feel like a God by having the life of someone in your hands.
But the main difference is that the doctor is legitimately skilled to perform surgery on you or whatever, while the rich capitalist isn't some wise man who understands what's best for everyone, yet he can't help but act like he is. When you do philanthropy, you are saying that you know better than others how to use money for good. What are the psychological effects of being on the receiving end of such "help"? The literature is pretty clear as well: it's bad. We want to feel in control of our lives and we want to have an impact on things, we don't want people to rule the world for us. |
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fuck I should just sell some of my Pokemon cards, if no one stakes that is what I will have to do - lostaccount | Last edit: 27/05/2018 11:23 |
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Baalim   Mexico. May 27 2018 08:23. Posts 34246 | | |
| On May 27 2018 06:42 Loco wrote:
You have to look at the reverse flows (read the article I linked, "aid in reverse'') to understand why this foreign aid budget is not some net amount of money that's simply coming in to help the poor as most people believe. The UN figure to solve world hunger is actually $30 billion USD. But even if we assume that it's somehow not enough (and we should), twice that amount would almost certainly be. But it wouldn't do anything about the rest of the structural injustices that have made hunger a problem in the first place. And it's not like billionaires would really have to spend any money since 40% of the food we produce already goes to waste. But that's how the system works, you have to put a lock on your food supplies and let it rot while people starve otherwise it would collapse. |
Oh im sure its shit and ineffective as I said government programs are a 99% friction.
Hunger is not the result of structural injustices, its the result of an environment with limited resources, (but we create more and more resources every day and eventually it will be a phantom of the past), yes there is a ridiculous amount of food wasted but as advocate of "complexity" you are simplifying this issue.
You said that food is wasted and we only need distribution, but the excess crops in lets say the US have no way to reach africa, the costs of moving that food far exceeds the ones required for that food to be produced in africa, the "distribution challenges" are not trivial and in fact we return to the initial problem since distribution usually is more expensive than local production |
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Loco   Canada. May 27 2018 08:42. Posts 20963 | | |
What? The poorer countries are continually exporting their food to the richer ones. Over half of the fruit in the US is imported for example. That's twice as much as it was in 1975. We have a global food system, hunger is no longer about living in an environment with limited resources. It's not a difficult problem to solve, it's just that we don't care to do it because there's apparently no profit to it.
My point on food waste was more general so as to say that it's inherently wasteful. There are also plenty of people going hungry locally in rich Western countries but they can't have access to the food that's locked up. It is literally locked up in dumpsters while it is still good to eat while the homeless and poor people on food stamps go hungry. In my area there are people who do public food dumps and they run the risk of being arrested when they are taking the food from the stores they work at and which they were supposed to throw out. |
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fuck I should just sell some of my Pokemon cards, if no one stakes that is what I will have to do - lostaccount | Last edit: 27/05/2018 08:44 |
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Loco   Canada. May 27 2018 14:20. Posts 20963 | | |
He held it for as long as he could. I assume there won't be a discussion/debate part 2.
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fuck I should just sell some of my Pokemon cards, if no one stakes that is what I will have to do - lostaccount | |
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Baalim   Mexico. May 28 2018 03:39. Posts 34246 | | |
did he say that in their debate? is there a highlight or something? Can't be bothered to watch 2 hours of Peterson stupid beliefs on faith |
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Loco   Canada. May 28 2018 05:20. Posts 20963 | | |
No, this is a recent Tweet referring to Peterson's answer to a question in the recent reddit AMA where someone called him out on his claim that, essentially, Marxism and Nazism were murderous because they were atheistic. But they spent a long period of time in their first discussion on Peterson's claim that atheists are not true atheists if they don't murder/rape etc. |
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fuck I should just sell some of my Pokemon cards, if no one stakes that is what I will have to do - lostaccount | Last edit: 28/05/2018 05:22 |
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sniderstyle   United States. May 31 2018 10:17. Posts 2046 | | |
he says a lot of words without saying anything. His vagueness, passion, confidence, and good vocabulary suckers people into his cultish philosophy. Got news for you, Jordan Peterson is just as lost as you or me. He's just smart enough to fool smart people into his cocoon. But if his self help style turns you into a more insightful person with good self reflection ability, then I'm all for it. But don't let him think for you. |
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Genginho: lose today 100 dollar only because of fishs they called and had luck on river | |
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Spitfiree   Bulgaria. May 31 2018 14:22. Posts 9634 | | |
So JP is basically one of those people that believe religion = moral compass, atheism = lack of moral compass? :D |
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lebowski   Greece. May 31 2018 21:07. Posts 9205 | | |
I'm truly interested in what a brand new culture with morals reinvented in the light of a non existing god would look like. Peterson is at least right (borrowing from Nietzsche) on atheists having christian morals as the products of the times they where brought up in. Even if you reject god it's not like you can magically erase your upbringing. Obv I'm not convinced at all that it'd lead to a murderous Nazi-like society like JP claims, but it's not certain that it would lead to a stable and better society either |
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new shit has come to light... a-and... shit! man... | Last edit: 31/05/2018 21:19 |
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lebowski   Greece. May 31 2018 21:18. Posts 9205 | | |
| On May 31 2018 09:17 sniderstyle wrote:
he says a lot of words without saying anything. His vagueness, passion, confidence, and good vocabulary suckers people into his cultish philosophy. Got news for you, Jordan Peterson is just as lost as you or me. He's just smart enough to fool smart people into his cocoon. But if his self help style turns you into a more insightful person with good self reflection ability, then I'm all for it. But don't let him think for you. |
I don't think he's that vague on most stuff; more like dangerously generalizing and over simplifying over certain matters. I also strongly doubt that he doesn't believe in what he's saying |
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new shit has come to light... a-and... shit! man... | |
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Spitfiree   Bulgaria. May 31 2018 21:40. Posts 9634 | | |
| On May 31 2018 20:07 lebowski wrote:
I'm truly interested in what a brand new culture with morals reinvented in the light of a non existing god would look like. Peterson is at least right (borrowing from Nietzsche) on atheists having christian morals as the products of the times they where brought up in. Even if you reject god it's not like you can magically erase your upbringing. Obv I'm not convinced at all that it'd lead to a murderous Nazi-like society like JP claims, but it's not certain that it would lead to a stable and better society either |
How can you really believe this. What about non-christian societies? What about tribes with no gods? What about kids that were brought in an atheistic environment like China, where 60% of ppl are atheists meaning there are millions of kids that probably have no clue about christian values? I wouldn't say my compassion or any other moral value is triggered by religion on any level, even though it would be hard to prove considering I was raised in a christian nation and it had an impact on my upbringing whether I like it or not. |
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| Last edit: 31/05/2018 21:41 |
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lebowski   Greece. May 31 2018 21:59. Posts 9205 | | |
| On May 31 2018 20:40 Spitfiree wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 31 2018 20:07 lebowski wrote:
I'm truly interested in what a brand new culture with morals reinvented in the light of a non existing god would look like. Peterson is at least right (borrowing from Nietzsche) on atheists having christian morals as the products of the times they where brought up in. Even if you reject god it's not like you can magically erase your upbringing. Obv I'm not convinced at all that it'd lead to a murderous Nazi-like society like JP claims, but it's not certain that it would lead to a stable and better society either |
How can you really believe this. What about non-christian societies? What about tribes with no gods? What about kids that were brought in an atheistic environment like China, where 60% of ppl are atheists meaning there are millions of kids that probably have no clue about christian values? I wouldn't say my compassion or any other moral value is triggered by religion on any level, even though it would be hard to prove considering I was raised in a christian nation and it had an impact on my upbringing whether I like it or not.
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I'm only referring to christianity because it's on the latest stages of humanity's religious evolution and more relevant to people brought up in the western civilization, people like you me and the atheists mentioned. Human morality has changed a lot throughout the centuries and religion played a big part in that. If morality was to be completely reinvented through let's say a scientific lens (if that's even possible), how can you be certain of the outcome? |
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new shit has come to light... a-and... shit! man... | Last edit: 31/05/2018 22:01 |
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Baalim   Mexico. May 31 2018 22:29. Posts 34246 | | |
| On May 31 2018 20:07 lebowski wrote:
I'm truly interested in what a brand new culture with morals reinvented in the light of a non existing god would look like. Peterson is at least right (borrowing from Nietzsche) on atheists having christian morals as the products of the times they where brought up in. Even if you reject god it's not like you can magically erase your upbringing. Obv I'm not convinced at all that it'd lead to a murderous Nazi-like society like JP claims, but it's not certain that it would lead to a stable and better society either |
thats stupid, we dont have christian morals, in fact Christian morality is idiotic and it quickly gets worse as you go back in time.
most if not all of the good parts of christian morality are derived from simple golden rule morals which actually preceeds it
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ye, golden rule predates christianity. I think the turn the other cheek part is revolutionary - but that tenet has been more of a buddhist than christian thing anyway. |
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lebowski   Greece. May 31 2018 23:05. Posts 9205 | | |
Sure, christianity has changed a lot and it was obviously initially based on what came before it, no such thing as parthenogenesis.
I don't see how this contradicts what I wrote, we are heavily morally influenced by the stage of religious evolution we were brought up in |
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new shit has come to light... a-and... shit! man... | |
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as a norwegian I feel like humanism describes leading social morals (and certainly the ones I've been raised in accordance with) more than christian morals do. If I'm gonna say that 'christian morals' have dictated morality of my society then I must be extremely selective in which christian morals I refer to. (however I'm basically in agreement with all aspects of humanist morality). As of 2016, more Norwegians identify as non-religious than religious anyway.
Southern Europe might well be different in this regard. |
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RiKD   United States. May 31 2018 23:28. Posts 8445 | | |
The golden rule was written in big letters on the wall in my elementary school. We talked about it a lot. I never went to church. Then, later, I spend all this time reading Kant and The Groundwork for the Metaphysics of Morals and his categorical imperative and getting into John Rawls and his theory of justice. Yeah, it was mentally stimulating but it all goes back to the golden rule. Turn the other cheek is revolutionary but like much of Christianity is misunderstood or ignored. Christianity for me is just too meek and pious. We would be a lot better off if students studied Nietzsche and Kant. |
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