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Spitfiree   Bulgaria. May 25 2019 20:39. Posts 9634

It's rather ironical you imply I jump to conclusions when you do exactly that in your reply. Super cool. Also not in my thirties, but good try. Also no, im not one bad day away from being as stupid as believing someone will fix my life for me. Your making grandeur generalizations. Having a bad streak -> leading to depression -> leading to necessity and holding on to something is just something normal for human beings. It's not "the system" that causes it.

I'm not even protecting JP btw. I believe he s a dipshit exploiting people, just the same as you do. It's not "the system" that enables him though, its idiots that want someone else to think instead of them. It would be one thing for him to be trying his best to deceive people in order to get profit though, and quite another to be voicing his opinion and having people throw money at him.

The whole MBA-related correspondence is insanely unprofessional and borderline scam-like. Seems like he s going for fullblown Trump- university fiesta

 Last edit: 25/05/2019 20:40

Loco   Canada. May 25 2019 22:49. Posts 20963

You must be damn close to 30, so it makes no difference.

I didn't talk about "the system". I mentioned systems.

He didn't expect his life to be fixed by Peterson. He wanted to run some idea by him. I remember he had a business idea. He thought he would gain the confidence he needed from Peterson to just jump into it. It costed $200 to get a chat with Peterson through Patreon, but there were a lot of other Patreons and this guy thought it was a bad idea to pull out of the monthly thing so he just stayed subscribed until it ended up costing $1400-$1600 (in large part because he didn't know if that meant he'd be removed from the list).

This could have easily been solved by Peterson or someone on his team making it clear that one donation sufficed to be put in the queue, and it could have also quite easily be made public in Patreon monthly updates just how long the queue is and when people can expect to be scheduled. It just didn't matter to Peterson. Or at least, it didn't matter as much as it mattered to him to invest less effort into transparency and make more profit.


  Having a bad streak -> leading to depression -> leading to necessity and holding on to something is just something normal for human beings. It's not "the system" that causes it.



"It isn't this in isolation, instead it's this thing in isolation." No it's not; it's never any one thing in isolation. Everything is an interplay between dynamical systems -- relationships and change are the only things that exist. For you there are such things as people who are smart and people who are stupid and we shouldn't think too hard about why that is. This is an example of a hierarchical system of value which then acts as a precondition for future behavior. I would argue not only does it trivialize the complexity of life, but it is also deeply anti-social.

If you take the most hard-line version of this belief and indoctrinate someone with it when they are young enough, and in a society where it is normalized, you can expect them to basically hold on to this belief throughout their entire life. If they come from a well-off family, or have had enough luck/privilege to do well in society, then they'll have a severe disdain for people in poverty and will feel superior to them. The logic is infallibly self-serving: "stupidity led them there; stupidity is human nature, it will always exist, I don't have to think about it." The same is true of any other hierarchical system of value like racism, sexism or ableism. It is about justifying dominance over people and avoiding to think about root causes. Almost always because it benefits us individually.

How you justify that hierarchy of intelligence that you are so attached to is something you never explain, but we have to take it for granted that this hierarchy exists and is fixed (meaning, it is of the influence of structurally open systems that can be changed). And of course you are at the top of this hierarchy and so is Baal. As such, everything can easily be explained for you. There is nothing to investigate, or understand about behavior, because it can all be boiled down to "this person wouldn't behave like this if they were as smart as me". How convenient.

Even if we ignore all of this and I simply follow your logic on your own terms, it doesn't follow that "the system has nothing to do with it" because "the system" doesn't have relevance if it isn't compared with other systems (or lackthere of). Your argument is self-contradicting. It's only once you have data to compare the frequency and the intensity of feelings of depression and desperation in different forms of social organization that you can make the claim you do that "the system doesn't matter". If we could find the same kind of predatory behavior, the same type of exploitation, with similar frequency and severity of consequences in every human society, then you'd be right and we'd have to say there are some hard limits to human nature when it comes to social organization and our capacity to be productively social. But you don't have that data, do you?


  The whole MBA-related correspondence is insanely unprofessional and borderline scam-like. Seems like he s going for fullblown Trump- university fiesta



Scam or not, did this kind of branding and selling of one's image exist pre-neoliberalism? And did neoliberalism spontaneously emerge in the consciousness of free individuals or was it manufactured by structures of power and sold to the masses? Oh well, why think about that when we can just say everyone is stupid if they buy something they don't need or go in debt.

fuck I should just sell some of my Pokemon cards, if no one stakes that is what I will have to do - lostaccountLast edit: 25/05/2019 23:55

Spitfiree   Bulgaria. May 26 2019 01:27. Posts 9634


  On May 25 2019 21:49 Loco wrote:

"It isn't this in isolation, instead it's this thing in isolation." No it's not; it's never any one thing in isolation. Everything is an interplay between dynamical systems -- relationships and change are the only things that exist. For you there are such things as people who are smart and people who are stupid and we shouldn't think too hard about why that is. This is an example of a hierarchical system of value which then acts as a precondition for future behavior. I would argue not only does it trivialize the complexity of life, but it is also deeply anti-social.



Should we just demolish all hierarchical systems and abandon value as a virtue or where are you going with this? There are some hierarchical systems, which do act as toxic preconditions for future behavior, which would regardless of it being anti-social or not only be causing damage, I agree. I don't agree that the lack of self-awareness should be excused unless someone has undergone through an insanely tough childhood e.g. being a part of the Catholic church or another cult, which brainwashes you, cause you're stuck inside a very small circle, without external sources which could possibly save you. It would be very reasonable to call my behaviour anti-social in those terms, since I simply take the whole excerpt of people and generalize them, but thats not really the point you're making.

Its actually super surprising you'd protect people like that. There's no way any of your utopias would come even close to true unless people are self-aware and stop searching for help from external sources????


  On May 25 2019 21:49 Loco wrote:
If you take the most hard-line version of this belief and indoctrinate someone with it when they are young enough, and in a society where it is normalized, you can expect them to basically hold on to this belief throughout their entire life. If they come from a well-off family, or have had enough luck/privilege to do well in society, then they'll have a severe disdain for people in poverty and will feel superior to them. The logic is infallibly self-serving: "stupidity led them there; stupidity is human nature, it will always exist, I don't have to think about it." The same is true of any other hierarchical system of value like racism, sexism or ableism. It is about justifying dominance over people and avoiding to think about root causes. Almost always because it benefits us individually.



Agree up to the part where you compare racism to intelligence. It's also rather a hypocritial expression that paragraph since if stupidity is in human nature and we assume you're right about everything, then i would be highly hypocritic, which is also a part of human nature, so why are you judging me? This is another hierarchical system, which enables you to enact dominance upon me, please stop abusing me.



  On May 25 2019 21:49 Loco wrote:
How you justify that hierarchy of intelligence that you are so attached to is something you never explain, but we have to take it for granted that this hierarchy exists and is fixed (meaning, it is of the influence of structurally open systems that can be changed). And of course you are at the top of this hierarchy and so is Baal. As such, everything can easily be explained for you. There is nothing to investigate, or understand about behavior, because it can all be boiled down to "this person wouldn't behave like this if they were as smart as me". How convenient.


I can define it quite easily. When shit goes bad, always seek the faults in yourself first. That would enable you to improve yourself at all times. That would also make it very hard to become desperate cause you would rationalize everything, thus bad situations would make sense and you'd know that there is a way out, even if you don't see a correct path right now. All you have to do is not fall for basic desperation actions, otherwise you know... you're just an idiot. Your poor decision making most likely impacts more people than just you. In this case, they've made someone like JP famous and given him value. Giving him money, enables him to get more marketing, enables him to attract more people, meaning more people get hurt. If you don't spend the time to think about how your actions will impact you and what implications could come in the future passively out of them, then you're not very bright.

(I'm talking about the topic at hand, there are plenty of cases where rationality would not really come in handy and intelligence wouldn't matter, but I don't believe those cases usually end up with people not seeking any help at all, while shutting themselves out completely - thats also why meaningful relationships with people matter and why I ignore them in "the seeking help from an internet celebrity" theme)



  On May 25 2019 21:49 Loco wrote:
Show nested quote +



Scam or not, did this kind of branding and selling of one's image exist pre-neoliberalism?

No, usually the "branding and selling" part would be non-existent, the power figures would simply be forced upon people. Now those "power figures" actually have to work for it, making it much harder to achieve anything.


  On May 25 2019 21:49 Loco wrote:
And did neoliberalism spontaneously emerge in the consciousness of free individuals or was it manufactured by structures of power and sold to the masses?


And the masses are not to blame, right? They are just victims? This is what pisses me off the most. Unless people learn to think for themselves and detach themselves from the collectivism and actually start taking responsibility for their own actions nothing will fucking change. It will be one power structure after another and just a bunch of babies crying about it and people like me calling them idiots. There will never be real, social collectivism without individual thought.

It has always been the same thing. The masses go for the easy, good-looking solutions, that require little to no effort. It has been like that pre-neoliberalism, it will be like that after neoliberalism. We just happen to live in a world, where technology is advanced enough, to make the people promoting "easy, one-stop solutions" much quicker. I used to be naive enough to think that would be for the better, as people would actually start learning, but its just the scams that get smarter, thats all. The fact that the US war with Iran will happen and the public won't do shit about it would be a perfect confirmation for my thesis

P.S. Then again I don't live in a country where debt is virtue and social value is determined by how many starbucks you got in your living area, even thought corrupt politicians don't even bother hiding their schemas here, cause they know nobody cares or will stop them

 Last edit: 26/05/2019 01:49

Stroggoz   New Zealand. May 26 2019 03:00. Posts 5290

Don't want to go through all the false statements made here. but as j.j rousou points out in his discourse on ineqaulity, the masses have actually been willing to spill a large amount of their own blood to earn various freedoms. The slave rebellions in ancient rome show that there can be a strong instinct for freedom in human beings.This conclusion can be drawn from history just as easily as the view that the masses are ignorant and looking for quick solutions. There is evidence for both, and the fact that America can't go to war with Iran right now as they did with vietnam is a result of serious enlightenment amoungst the american public over the past 50 years, (as well as other factors like the decline of amera's power over the rest of the world). The views of american's toward japan in ww2 or toward vietnam were completely savagry compared to what you found towards the iraq war, for example. I don't see the point in calling the masses ignorant unless it's to (imo falsely) identify yourself as someone that's smarter than these people.

Leftists fall too much for the propaganda on the right, there is no evidence to suggest state-capitalist societys are interested in people taking individual responsiblity for their actions, if this were the case, all of the bankers from 2008 crisis would be in jail for fraud wouldnt they.

One of 3 non decent human beings on a site of 5 people with between 2-3 decent human beings 

Loco   Canada. May 26 2019 05:08. Posts 20963


  On May 24 2019 23:30 Spitfiree wrote:
JP promising to change people's lives or turn them to an overnight success or anything even close to that.



There is that part in one of his books where he shows a letter that he wrote to his father about how he feels like he stumbled on the most important idea ever. Here's a passage of it:

"I don’t know, Dad, but I think I have discovered something that no one else has any idea about, and I’m not sure I can do it justice. Its scope is so broad that I can see only parts of it clearly at one time, and it is exceedingly difficult to set down comprehensibly in writing…. Anyways, I’m glad you and Mom are doing well. Thank you for doing my income tax returns."

So basically the implication is that he is a genius and currently the sole messenger of this discovery. He wrote a self-help book trying to guide people to grapple with this discovery and improve their lives. But because he's not making any promises you think it's all about other people over-inflating what are otherwise very humble contributions? Like he's not over-selling himself? Really? You don't think this guy sees himself just as he wants to be seen? This incredibly brave warrior and messenger of truth? This is the book's epigraph:

“I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world” — Matthew 13:35

This is how he's been peddling this Acton thing which apparently has very little to do with him other than in name, with Tweets such as this.




  He isn't mimicking Tony Robbins



How are they categorically different? Peterson doesn't teach anymore, and he doesn't see any clients either. He is a full-time self-help guru who goes around the world repeating the same things with the aim of motivating people. And he's overly paid for it. (I think he asks between 35k and 50k to speak on university campus...) At least Tony Robbins doesn't pretend to be anything else. Peterson pretends (literally) that he is a neuroscientist and an evolutionary biologist and that the work that he does "is not political".

fuck I should just sell some of my Pokemon cards, if no one stakes that is what I will have to do - lostaccountLast edit: 26/05/2019 05:22

Santafairy   Korea (South). May 26 2019 06:12. Posts 2224

it's cool to see the cognitive dissonance manifest itself, when you were posting youtube vids of random guys patreon was a great thing and you told me specifically I just didn't understand how it worked, but the minute someone you hate is successful with it, it evokes this absurd reaction

It seems to be not very profitable in the long run to play those kind of hands. - Gus Hansen 

Loco   Canada. May 26 2019 07:02. Posts 20963


  On May 26 2019 00:27 Spitfiree wrote:

Should we just demolish all hierarchical systems and abandon value as a virtue or where are you going with this? There are some hierarchical systems, which do act as toxic preconditions for future behavior, which would regardless of it being anti-social or not only be causing damage, I agree. I don't agree that the lack of self-awareness should be excused unless someone has undergone through an insanely tough childhood e.g. being a part of the Catholic church or another cult, which brainwashes you, cause you're stuck inside a very small circle, without external sources which could possibly save you. It would be very reasonable to call my behaviour anti-social in those terms, since I simply take the whole excerpt of people and generalize them, but thats not really the point you're making.




I don't think of it in terms of just demolishing hierarchies in the outside world and suddenly it's fine. But the first step is making stock of them and their consequences through analysis. Society is very much the macrocosm of the individual and what toxicity and dysfunctionality we see in society is mirrored within the individual because they produce each other in a continuous manner that we don't generally perceive. You didn't choose the society in which you were born and the tools you were given to "think for yourself". You were taught obedience like everyone else within a disciplinary society, but depending on your life circumstances and your relationship with power, you became more or less of a conformist and a "free thinker".

But no one really is free to think about what they think about. It's an illusion to believe that everyone could be just as smart as you if they were given the same access to the same websites, films, music or whatever else, because knowledge isn't about information, it is about the organization of information, and that has to be learned. If you're drowning in debt in a fast-paced world where you have to make swift decisions that will shape your future, or you're working two jobs to feed a family, you don't have the time or the energy to learn.

The hierarchies that lead to toxic preconditions have to be combated in society just as much as they have to be combated in ourselves. If the focus is only on one there can be no advancement.


  Its actually super surprising you'd protect people like that. There's no way any of your utopias would come even close to true unless people are self-aware and stop searching for help from external sources????



Everything that you can think about as being "internal" was in fact external and you have internalized it. Nothing was self-created in you. That's what a nervous system does, it takes energy and information from "the outside" and uses it to create something new, and it leaves an imprint as a memory so that it can be repeated again if it was beneficial or avoided if it wasn't. But what it creates is structurally determined, constrained by the "raw materials" that it acquired. E.g. You can make certain neurotransmitters more if you're eating certain foods that are higher in some amino acids, but not otherwise. Or you can make more glucose for your muscles if it's needed, otherwise the body will raise its temperature and burn the excess carbohydrates. At no point do you have any conscious control over that just like any other feedback loop you depend on for your survival.

The same thing happens with culture and information and the forms of control that are involved and mediating between you and whatever information is "out there". People don't get to decide what from the outside they will want to seek, and what they will be able to understand/integrate; it is always dependent on their current needs and what they have already been able to understand/integrate. And it goes back to their childhood, to when they didn't have any choice over their education. We all carry socio-cultural conditionings, for better or worse, and all of this takes place within a specific historical context that shapes the way we view ourselves and organize ourselves and what we understand as possible or realistic or utopian.

Praise and blame has its roots in religion, especially the passionate kind that makes one feel better or more virtuous than someone else. There's no way to move forward with this, it's a self-serving dead-end and that's why I call it out. Even if I was guilty of it, I'd call me out for it. You can make the case for praise and blame on purely pragmatic grounds, like with nudge theory, but that's not what you're doing as far as I can tell. You really think that people can radically change themselves without seeking external sources. I don't view myself as protecting anyone when I say these things, I just view it as necessary things to lay out to allow for comprehension between people.


 
Agree up to the part where you compare racism to intelligence. It's also rather a hypocritial expression that paragraph since if stupidity is in human nature and we assume you're right about everything, then i would be highly hypocritic, which is also a part of human nature, so why are you judging me? This is another hierarchical system, which enables you to enact dominance upon me, please stop abusing me.



I'm not judging you. If I was judging you I'd say things like "you've had plenty of time to read and understand XYZ, but instead you chose to play video games, do drugs, mindlessly browse the internet. You suck and you're dumb".

I don't know if I'm right but I've yet to see an instance of people talking about their intelligence in a way that isn't hierarchical and self-serving. It's a polluted term and that hierarchy certainly goes back as far as racism does and rests on just as little empirical evidence for itself. It is not only comparable to racism but it was used to justify racism, and is used to justify specieism and misogyny. Other animals aren't "really intelligent" (or they are robots, for Descartes) and neither are women because they are "too emotional".



  I can define it quite easily. When shit goes bad, always seek the faults in yourself first. That would enable you to improve yourself at all times. That would also make it very hard to become desperate cause you would rationalize everything, thus bad situations would make sense and you'd know that there is a way out, even if you don't see a correct path right now. All you have to do is not fall for basic desperation actions, otherwise you know... you're just an idiot. Your poor decision making most likely impacts more people than just you. In this case, they've made someone like JP famous and given him value. Giving him money, enables him to get more marketing, enables him to attract more people, meaning more people get hurt. If you don't spend the time to think about how your actions will impact you and what implications could come in the future passively out of them, then you're not very bright.



I think that's fine because when stuff goes bad you react immediately and you have to focus on what's under your control (or what feels like it's under your control anyway) if you want to find a way out. You can do some introspection, see which needs you were trying to fulfill and see the mistakes that you've made and which have put you in a certain circumstance, but that's only in retrospect; given the same information and needs/wants you had prior, you would have done the exact same thing, you were never free to do otherwise. So again that's why I preach an ethic of comprehension. There's only the option to not fall for something if you've already fallen for it, or learned from others who fell for it, and you can see it in advance.

And it's not like this person saw Peterson scam a bunch of people prior to this. If you want to salvage the word idiot, I have no problem with that: I can see how you could justify calling someone an idiot if they've been trying to be a poker pro for 10 years and they never made it above NL 10, but this isn't it. Not anywhere close. There's real congenital idiocy and that's why it's anti-social to automatically put people in that category because they behave in a way you think you wouldn't have in their situation.




  No, usually the "branding and selling" part would be non-existent, the power figures would simply be forced upon people. Now those "power figures" actually have to work for it, making it much harder to achieve anything.



Unless they were unelected kings and emperors they had to work for it too. It's just that now in this attention economy it's harder to "achieve" recognition or to remain relevant for very long.



  And the masses are not to blame, right? They are just victims? This is what pisses me off the most. Unless people learn to think for themselves and detach themselves from the collectivism and actually start taking responsibility for their own actions nothing will fucking change. It will be one power structure after another and just a bunch of babies crying about it and people like me calling them idiots. There will never be real, social collectivism without individual thought.



They're not victims if they're not suffering from it. Although I tend to go with Thoreau and his idea that the mass of men lead lives of quiet desperation, it's not for me to say who is a victim and who isn't.

There is no individual without the collective and no collective without individuals. Individual responsibility only makes sense in tandem with collective responsibility. That's why the ancient Greek philosophers put so much emphasis on political life. With hard-line individualism all you have are atomized and alienated individuals that are easy to distract and rule over and you have a society that falls apart alongside global ecological collapse.


  It has always been the same thing. The masses go for the easy, good-looking solutions, that require little to no effort. It has been like that pre-neoliberalism, it will be like that after neoliberalism. We just happen to live in a world, where technology is advanced enough, to make the people promoting "easy, one-stop solutions" much quicker. I used to be naive enough to think that would be for the better, as people would actually start learning, but its just the scams that get smarter, thats all. The fact that the US war with Iran will happen and the public won't do shit about it would be a perfect confirmation for my thesis



I don't think the evidence bears this out. I mean, the masses are currently not supporting what is happening in their own countries. Twenty-eight weeks straight of manifestations in France is not nothing. And it's not because Americans are stupid that they are not getting medicare for all and living wages, it's because they live in an corrupt oligarchy that doesn't represent their interests.

A lot of US citizens know that war is a racket and that their government is addicted to war, way more than a few decades ago. I was actually surprised to see the top comments were non-interventionist on recent VICE videos on Venezuela which is usually filled with status quo and pro-war apologia. And I think a lot of it has to do with people who have not given up, like Jimmy Dore who has a pretty big reach and who are continuing with the kind of politically aware comedy that Bill Hicks and George Carlin were famous for.

fuck I should just sell some of my Pokemon cards, if no one stakes that is what I will have to do - lostaccountLast edit: 26/05/2019 07:29

Loco   Canada. May 26 2019 07:19. Posts 20963


  On May 26 2019 05:12 Santafairy wrote:
it's cool to see the cognitive dissonance manifest itself, when you were posting youtube vids of random guys patreon was a great thing and you told me specifically I just didn't understand how it worked, but the minute someone you hate is successful with it, it evokes this absurd reaction



I honestly have no recollection of what you're referring to, but you've managed to avoid the meat of the issue entirely. (1) I've made no comments about Patreon as a service. (2) I don't see how it's absurd to think it's tragic that an unemployed man would give his remaining few hundred dollars to someone who doesn't need them and (3) Peterson isn't successful with Patreon, he is no longer even on it.

Also I don't hate Peterson, I would love to have a chat with the guy. I think I'd wet myself if I could moderate a debate between him and Robert Sapolsky. What I hate is the world in which he is temporarily thriving.

fuck I should just sell some of my Pokemon cards, if no one stakes that is what I will have to do - lostaccountLast edit: 26/05/2019 07:24

Santafairy   Korea (South). May 26 2019 07:49. Posts 2224

https://www.liquidpoker.net/poker-for.../6/jordan_peterson_phenomena.html#104

are you now trying to insult peterson as not being successful after needling him for being a millionaire when his patreon was at something like tens of thousands per month, because he left the platform as a statement of protest?

there is no "issue" here, what you've found is an idiot human who wasted his last money stupidly, which while tragic, you're on a fucking poker site so you have to be purposefully dense to think peterson invented that behavior. you will never find a video of peterson going donate your last money to me, my tailored suits are more important than you being able to eat. you'll also never acknowledge all the letters he gets from people saying he's actually helped them make their lives better, even if just from reading or watching his stuff, but somehow this lone retard is all his fault, it's like, try to be less transparent about your hate

It seems to be not very profitable in the long run to play those kind of hands. - Gus Hansen 

Loco   Canada. May 26 2019 17:29. Posts 20963

He wasn't gambling. If he had been gambling, the Patreon perk would have said: "win a chance to have a talk with Dr. Peterson". That this isn't obvious to you is another good example of your repeated bad faith around here.

I can find the same kind of support in the Tony Robbins crowd, or the Law of Attraction crowd, or the alternative medicine and "energy healing" crowd. Fuck, you know how many letters of adoration and support some serial killers have gotten in jail? I can acknowledge that many people feel they have been helped by people I don't respect and that comfort and self-deception go hand in hand. I can also acknowledge, and have acknowledged, that whatever good advice he gives (and there is good advice) can be had in a better "package" elsewhere. It's another subject and not an argument against anything I've been saying.

You've deliberately avoided every single argument I've been making and instead chose to redirect the conversation on this notion of success. This is a typical right-wing trope that as a leftist I'm just envious of people who are "more successful" i.e. who make more money than me. This is not worth a response but I'll just say this: your notion of success is not universal. I don't measure success in terms of how much money and attention someone is getting like you do. I regard as a success someone who has unambiguously done more good than harm, someone who is principled and fair. While you look at someone like Trump as the ultimate success story, I think of someone like Jonas Salk who instead of enriching himself with the first polio vaccine gave it away and lived a modest life, founding an institute for research and creating the conditions for a bunch of Nobel prize-winning work in science.

The link you provided of me saying people use Patreon to have more time to create content people want to see rather than as a "begging tool" has nothing to do with anything. Patreon isn't good or bad, it is used by legitimate educators and activists but also by grifters. An even better example than Jordan is his daughter. (How interesting that she didn't leave the platform in protest too?). She has no education in nutrition or health and yet she sells diet advice (essentially telling you to just eat meat) to desperate people. She learned from the best, I guess.

How about you give us your thoughts on Anita Sarkeesian? How successful of a person do you think she is? She received a lot of crowd-funding support after all. As an aside, if you don't think her work lived up to what she had promised and the amount she received to produce it, should I just make you out to be a blind hater?

How about the Chapo podcast? They receive even more money than Peterson did. Almost $100,000 more per month than JP did when he left, in fact. Do you regard them as that much more successful? If you see the thousands of positive comments they receive on every episode about how much they improve the lives of all of the filthy lefties who listen to them, do you just go like "oh yeah I guess they're good people, I mean they're successful and liked by so many people, so they must be brilliant"? Don't think you do. It's just more double standards coming from you.

Cool thing about Chapo is that, despite having a cult following, they only have one perk, and you get it for only $5. No chance to unintentionally harm, exploit or deceive anyone there. Just takes a minimal amount of foresight and, of course, not being greedy. What's that thing called? I think the word is 'integrity'.

fuck I should just sell some of my Pokemon cards, if no one stakes that is what I will have to do - lostaccountLast edit: 26/05/2019 19:22

Spitfiree   Bulgaria. May 26 2019 23:15. Posts 9634


  On May 26 2019 06:02 Loco wrote:
Show nested quote +




I don't think of it in terms of just demolishing hierarchies in the outside world and suddenly it's fine. But the first step is making stock of them and their consequences through analysis. Society is very much the macrocosm of the individual and what toxicity and dysfunctionality we see in society is mirrored within the individual because they produce each other in a continuous manner that we don't generally perceive. You didn't choose the society in which you were born and the tools you were given to "think for yourself". You were taught obedience like everyone else within a disciplinary society, but depending on your life circumstances and your relationship with power, you became more or less of a conformist and a "free thinker".

But no one really is free to think about what they think about. It's an illusion to believe that everyone could be just as smart as you if they were given the same access to the same websites, films, music or whatever else, because knowledge isn't about information, it is about the organization of information, and that has to be learned. If you're drowning in debt in a fast-paced world where you have to make swift decisions that will shape your future, or you're working two jobs to feed a family, you don't have the time or the energy to learn.

The hierarchies that lead to toxic preconditions have to be combated in society just as much as they have to be combated in ourselves. If the focus is only on one there can be no advancement.


Sure, I agree with all of that except you go to an extreme... will ignore the petty attempt to insult me. Debt is not inherited thought, its a decision you make. Fast-paced society indeed puts you in a position where you're prone to make much more irrational choices due to its nature, doesn't mean you shouldn't stop and think about your decisions though. Or how exactly is it that you suggest addressing the "toxic preconditions" ... via intuitive actions? Don't you see how you contradict yourself? That's literally all we have as humans. Intuitive decisions and decisions we've spent time to think about. If you're gonna be doing the latter, might as well TRY to do it right.


  On May 26 2019 06:02 Loco wrote:
Show nested quote +



I'm not judging you. If I was judging you I'd say things like "you've had plenty of time to read and understand XYZ, but instead you chose to play video games, do drugs, mindlessly browse the internet. You suck and you're dumb".

I don't know if I'm right but I've yet to see an instance of people talking about their intelligence in a way that isn't hierarchical and self-serving. It's a polluted term and that hierarchy certainly goes back as far as racism does and rests on just as little empirical evidence for itself. It is not only comparable to racism but it was used to justify racism, and is used to justify specieism and misogyny. Other animals aren't "really intelligent" (or they are robots, for Descartes) and neither are women because they are "too emotional".


Obviously, the judging part was a smirky way to throw the ball in your court... didn't really expect an answer to that. As I've tried to explain I don't view intelligence in a "standard" manner in this case. It's not about IQ or knowledge, but rather the decision-making process of an individual. Obviously, the more knowledge you have and the more open-minded you are, chances are the better decisions you'd make, or at least give yourself the opportunity to make them. But most of all, analyzing the actions you will be taking. If you are "investing" all of the money you have, while you're in debt into a internet celebrity, then you're obviously desperate, but you obviously also didn't spend 2 seconds to think about why your decision could be bad and to me that is quite stupid and I can't blame it on any preconditions, nor neoliberal society. If anything, living in a fast-paced society and being burdened by debt should've taught you something.



  On May 26 2019 06:02 Loco wrote:

Show nested quote +



I think that's fine because when stuff goes bad you react immediately and you have to focus on what's under your control (or what feels like it's under your control anyway) if you want to find a way out. You can do some introspection, see which needs you were trying to fulfill and see the mistakes that you've made and which have put you in a certain circumstance, but that's only in retrospect; given the same information and needs/wants you had prior, you would have done the exact same thing, you were never free to do otherwise. So again that's why I preach an ethic of comprehension. There's only the option to not fall for something if you've already fallen for it, or learned from others who fell for it, and you can see it in advance.

And it's not like this person saw Peterson scam a bunch of people prior to this. If you want to salvage the word idiot, I have no problem with that: I can see how you could justify calling someone an idiot if they've been trying to be a poker pro for 10 years and they never made it above NL 10, but this isn't it. Not anywhere close. There's real congenital idiocy and that's why it's anti-social to automatically put people in that category because they behave in a way you think you wouldn't have in their situation.



Don't agree it's only in retrospect though. You can very much minimize potentially self-caused damage by looking for reasons why you are wrong and why your ideas are bad. And we have to do that, especially because we have little to no control in our lives. I've explained why I called him an idiot. Maybe "intelligence" and "idiot" are not the right words used in the conversation, but either way I would not excuse those actions. I can see how that whole situation is just purely sad and how nobody should be put in a position like that, but I don't think its undeserved.


  On May 26 2019 06:02 Loco wrote:

I don't think the evidence bears this out. I mean, the masses are currently not supporting what is happening in their own countries. Twenty-eight weeks straight of manifestations in France is not nothing. And it's not because Americans are stupid that they are not getting medicare for all and living wages, it's because they live in an corrupt oligarchy that doesn't represent their interests.

A lot of US citizens know that war is a racket and that their government is addicted to war, way more than a few decades ago. I was actually surprised to see the top comments were non-interventionist on recent VICE videos on Venezuela which is usually filled with status quo and pro-war apologia. And I think a lot of it has to do with people who have not given up, like Jimmy Dore who has a pretty big reach and who are continuing with the kind of politically aware comedy that Bill Hicks and George Carlin were famous for.



Sure, and Stroggoz is also correct and I have thought about all of that as well. And historically there is a lot of evidence of what you guys are pointing out, but the progress towards "freedom" and "justice" is done with baby steps, while power figures do whatever they want with ease. And I'm not even sure if there is any progress since previously people were just physical slaves, now they are enslaved by advertisements and marketing leading to debt. The mental health of people is at an all-time low and Millenials will probably have it even worse, even thought good progress is being made to find causes and solutions, the preconditions are still there, the authority is still there, and the people that navigate the ship might be different, but the ideology is the same. You had strong opposition against war in Vietnam, many people suffered because they were opposing it and it changed nothing, the USA continued its violent ways and will continue doing so. There is no reason for that not to happen while things like countries exist. There will always be someone that would want to gather more resources and power for self-interest. It would be much harder for that kind of a force to achieve anything if centralized power doesn't exist. It would be noticed and crushed.

You're probably right about me being a conformist though. I don't want to have affiliations to a country, even if it has an effect on me personally. I don't think my vote means shit in elections, nor do I believe my presence in a protest would change shit. Especially here, where the corruption is so ingrained into the political circles that the only way for anything to change is for a few thousand people to suddenly drop dead due to natural causes (a physical intervention would just spin the wheel again, so no - a violent cleansing wouldn't really change much)

 Last edit: 26/05/2019 23:27

Santafairy   Korea (South). May 27 2019 13:37. Posts 2224


  On May 26 2019 16:29 Loco wrote:
He wasn't gambling. If he had been gambling, the Patreon perk would have said: "win a chance to have a talk with Dr. Peterson". That this isn't obvious to you is another good example of your repeated bad faith around here.


you just said

  One regular poster on /r/JordanPeterson admitted that he gave $1500 to Peterson through monthly Patreon payments in order to get the chance to have a Skype chat with him (that was the perk). But since there were so many people in line, there were no guarantees. You basically have to keep donating a few hundred every months in the hopes that you'll eventually be next.


>no guarantees
>have to give money
>in order to get the chance
>in the hopes

so the guy went busto thinking he could make it by blowing all his money... hmm... what kind of degenerate behavior pattern would this be...


  On May 26 2019 16:29 Loco wrote:
I can find the same kind of support in the Tony Robbins crowd, or the Law of Attraction crowd, or the alternative medicine and "energy healing" crowd. Fuck, you know how many letters of adoration and support some serial killers have gotten in jail? I can acknowledge that many people feel they have been helped by people I don't respect and that comfort and self-deception go hand in hand. I can also acknowledge, and have acknowledged, that whatever good advice he gives (and there is good advice) can be had in a better "package" elsewhere. It's another subject and not an argument against anything I've been saying.


the perfect is not the enemy of the good

and JBP is not a serial killer but good try


  On May 26 2019 16:29 Loco wrote:
You've deliberately avoided every single argument I've been making and instead chose to redirect the conversation on this notion of success. This is a typical right-wing trope that as a leftist I'm just envious of people who are "more successful" i.e. who make more money than me. This is not worth a response but I'll just say this: your notion of success is not universal. I don't measure success in terms of how much money and attention someone is getting like you do. I regard as a success someone who has unambiguously done more good than harm, someone who is principled and fair. While you look at someone like Trump as the ultimate success story, I think of someone like Jonas Salk who instead of enriching himself with the first polio vaccine gave it away and lived a modest life, founding an institute for research and creating the conditions for a bunch of Nobel prize-winning work in science.


you're not making any arguments for me to avoid, and...

I'm not redirecting the conversation, I'm just pointing out it's obvious you have visceral jealousy of JBP because he's become a hit by introducing people to actual pragmatism, while your own misguided gatekept brand of esoteric philosophical bullshit isn't doing anything


  On May 26 2019 16:29 Loco wrote:
The link you provided of me saying people use Patreon to have more time to create content people want to see rather than as a "begging tool" has nothing to do with anything. Patreon isn't good or bad, it is used by legitimate educators and activists but also by grifters. An even better example than Jordan is his daughter. (How interesting that she didn't leave the platform in protest too?). She has no education in nutrition or health and yet she sells diet advice (essentially telling you to just eat meat) to desperate people. She learned from the best, I guess.

How about you give us your thoughts on Anita Sarkeesian? How successful of a person do you think she is? She received a lot of crowd-funding support after all. As an aside, if you don't think her work lived up to what she had promised and the amount she received to produce it, should I just make you out to be a blind hater?

How about the Chapo podcast? They receive even more money than Peterson did. Almost $100,000 more per month than JP did when he left, in fact. Do you regard them as that much more successful? If you see the thousands of positive comments they receive on every episode about how much they improve the lives of all of the filthy lefties who listen to them, do you just go like "oh yeah I guess they're good people, I mean they're successful and liked by so many people, so they must be brilliant"? Don't think you do. It's just more double standards coming from you.

Cool thing about Chapo is that, despite having a cult following, they only have one perk, and you get it for only $5. No chance to unintentionally harm, exploit or deceive anyone there. Just takes a minimal amount of foresight and, of course, not being greedy. What's that thing called? I think the word is 'integrity'.


yes I would say people with more money or fame can be considered more successful than people with less, in a certain sense. for example, without getting to deep into the epistemology of it, bill gates is more successful than you. also, JBP is more successful than you.

I don't think those people can be therefore concluded to be brilliant per se, no

as far as I know Anita Sarkeesian went on a crowdfunding website, promised specific shit claiming the money was needed and would go to it, then never delivered it, and pocketed the money

It seems to be not very profitable in the long run to play those kind of hands. - Gus Hansen 

Loco   Canada. May 27 2019 21:14. Posts 20963


  On May 27 2019 12:37 Santafairy wrote:
Show nested quote +


you just said

  One regular poster on /r/JordanPeterson admitted that he gave $1500 to Peterson through monthly Patreon payments in order to get the chance to have a Skype chat with him (that was the perk). But since there were so many people in line, there were no guarantees. You basically have to keep donating a few hundred every months in the hopes that you'll eventually be next.


>no guarantees
>have to give money
>in order to get the chance
>in the hopes

so the guy went busto thinking he could make it by blowing all his money... hmm... what kind of degenerate behavior pattern would this be...


Ok, let me clarify what I think I already made clear. The perk in itself was not gambling. It didn't advertise itself as such. I'm 99% sure that all you needed to do was donate once and you were entered into a queue and he'd eventually schedule you for a Skype call. But in the mind of the person who remained subscribed, it wasn't clear whether or not he needed to remain subscribed in order to get the Skype meeting. So he did, because it was more important to him to "earn" his session with his guru than to keep the last of his money. He was specifically asking on the JordanPeterson reddit if he should unsubscribe and if he risked losing his meeting.

There have been numerous people who were/are unemployed and who said as soon as they'd get a job they'd start giving money to JP on Patreon monthly. This is absurd. This is someone who is already rich, and who spends absurd amounts of money filling up his house with expensive Soviet art -- he doesn't need money from people without savings, but he gets plenty of it.



  I'm not redirecting the conversation, I'm just pointing out it's obvious you have visceral jealousy of JBP because he's become a hit by introducing people to actual pragmatism, while your own misguided gatekept brand of esoteric philosophical bullshit isn't doing anything



Yes you are redirecting it. The subject is Peterson's integrity. You deny that he could have done a better job managing his Patreon, I give arguments as to how he could have done so and also give you an example of a more famous/sucessful Patreon that sets a better example and you don't address them. I also give an even stronger case with the new shady Acton university fellowship and you ignore it and basically go "you just hatin' brah cuz he's more famous than you".

And yeah, his pragmatism. It's not recognized by any actual philosophers as being worth paying attention to. This is a guy who in his podcast with Sam Harris explained the role of "deep Darwinism" in accepting propositions as true and claims that he cannot verify the number of hairs on a persons head without a set of framing assumptions.


  I don't think those people can be therefore concluded to be brilliant per se, no

as far as I know Anita Sarkeesian went on a crowdfunding website, promised specific shit claiming the money was needed and would go to it, then never delivered it, and pocketed the money



She asked for $6000 and received like $160,000. Her blueprint for her project was of course going to match the initial funding she thought she'd receive and asked for. She never expected to receive that much and so she needed more time to figure out how she could make use of the money. No one forced people to donate and she never promised anything. Where were all you free speech warriors when she got constantly harassed and given death threats over this project of hers? No where because it's the same people who are anti-feminists who complained about the money she got, not the donators.

So I simply hate Jordan Peterson because he's successful according to the attention and money he received, but you don't recognize that people who received as much or more attention and money are more successful, and it couldn't be because you hate what they stand for. Okay, so double standards just like I pointed out.

fuck I should just sell some of my Pokemon cards, if no one stakes that is what I will have to do - lostaccountLast edit: 27/05/2019 21:17

Spitfiree   Bulgaria. May 27 2019 23:32. Posts 9634

This is exactly why I'm all for quick adoption of cryptocurrencies. Would be a good example of how a platform like patreon could work easily with smart contracts legally binding people to deliver the services they say they would. Transactions would be smooth, the legal part would be fast and smooth and most importantly legitimate. You avoid all the bullshit 3rd parties that would take ages to approve of said contract.

I don't feel like anyone can do shit about people not delivering their said "services" on patreon even if the money was sent to them. Or the said people wouldn't re

 Last edit: 27/05/2019 23:33

Baalim   Mexico. May 28 2019 00:26. Posts 34246


  On May 27 2019 20:14 Loco wrote:
Where were all you free speech warriors when she got constantly harassed and given death threats over this project of hers? No where because it's the same people who are anti-feminists who complained about the money she got, not the donators.



Calling people who want freedom of speech sarcastically as "free speech warriors", you autoritarian censorious lefties are hillarious.

Did anybody try to get Anita censored? because receiving mean tweets regarding your ideas =/= censorship.


How do you dare to talk about intellectual consistency when you are asking for violence and censorship for political opponents but I doubt you would be ok with Anita being punched and censored because you are a hypocrite.

Ex-PokerStars Team Pro OnlineLast edit: 28/05/2019 02:36

LemOn[5thF]   Czech Republic. May 28 2019 12:03. Posts 15163

haha thread became another Loco clusterfuck?

Just coming here to say I got his 12 rules audiobook
Besides constantly referencing some sort of made up book nobody cares about (in my former communist country at least) book it's pretty good even funny so far
2 chapters in

93% Sure!  

Baalim   Mexico. May 28 2019 20:58. Posts 34246

How dare you sir... dont you see that his paid meet & greets last less than 1 minute per person and his patreon rules are unclear if you need to sustain the membership or just 1 month is enough for skype, also there is a pic that shows he did not clean his room as he preaches... he is clearly the devl, burn that book you nazi funder.

Ex-PokerStars Team Pro Online 

Loco   Canada. May 28 2019 21:04. Posts 20963


  On May 27 2019 23:26 Baalim wrote:
Show nested quote +


Did anybody try to get Anita censored? because receiving mean tweets regarding your ideas =/= censorship.



Used to your false equivalencies by now. "Received mean tweets" is clearly not the same thing as being constantly harassed, doxxed, receiving death and rape threats to you and your entire family, having people create pornographic images of you, having someone create a game where you get punched in the face and increasingly bruised. This happened for months on end every day. I bet she still receives them. She was also scheduled to speak and receive an award and someone called in a bomb threat to try to prevent it.

Yes, a momentarily rationally thinking person would tend to think these are attempts at censorship by instilling fear in someone. A person who is afraid for their safety and the safety of their family is often going to be afraid to speak out. That's why people do those things and that's also why they threaten to punch Nazis. The reason you don't stand up for people like Anita but you'll stand up for the protection of fascists in liberal society is because your ideology considers feminists to be more dangerous than Nazis.

We all have an idealized view of ourselves that is deceiving. You think you are a principled person, you think your moral principles have primacy, but you have a "tribe" before you have principles. People who complain the most about others being dogmatic and "ideologically possessed" like Peterson and you it turns out are the most possessed of them all and the least self-critical. It is constantly brought to light that you don't adapt to new information, instead you double down. That's the nature of conservatism, by definition: nothing is more important than to preserve one's belief system, to defend one's ego and privileges.

There are numerous instances of censorship that you don't care about in the slightest and the same is true of Peterson. Anyone who doubts this should reflect on his complete and utter silence on the case of Assange right now. Do you have an excuse for that as well, or are you going to ignore it just like you ignored the Acton university fellowship because it's deeply inconvenient? The people who are making the most noise about Assange are leftists, not the right-wing grifters from the "Intellectual" Dark Web. Hell, if you go to /r/samharris you'll find most of Sam's followers support putting the guy in jail. I don't follow the legendary Ben Shapiro but unsurprisingly, in the latest Rogan podcast he was talking about WikiLeaks being a “Russian front”. As for Rogan himself, he pushes the same thing, despite the fact that he was informed by people, including Tulsi Gabbard recently, that his previous guest from New Knowledge isn't a reliable person. Hmm, hmm. Curious stuff isn't it? How could all these free speech warriors turn out to be frauds? No one could have known!

fuck I should just sell some of my Pokemon cards, if no one stakes that is what I will have to do - lostaccountLast edit: 28/05/2019 22:58

Loco   Canada. May 28 2019 21:13. Posts 20963


  On May 28 2019 11:03 LemOn[5thF] wrote:
haha thread became another Loco clusterfuck?

Just coming here to say I got his 12 rules audiobook
Besides constantly referencing some sort of made up book nobody cares about (in my former communist country at least) book it's pretty good even funny so far
2 chapters in



It's a great book and a great continuation of philosophical thought over time. If you like it, be sure to read his magnum opus. (I mean, listen to, not read, lol, you should never READ something... that's for nerds):



How far we have come!

fuck I should just sell some of my Pokemon cards, if no one stakes that is what I will have to do - lostaccountLast edit: 28/05/2019 22:04

Spitfiree   Bulgaria. May 28 2019 21:49. Posts 9634


  On May 28 2019 11:03 LemOn[5thF] wrote:
haha thread became another Loco clusterfuck?

Just coming here to say I got his 12 rules audiobook
Besides constantly referencing some sort of made up book nobody cares about (in my former communist country at least) book it's pretty good even funny so far
2 chapters in



You can't seriously try to make fun of the thread and then mention that you bought the book of a joke in the same post... It actually verifies a lot of Loco's arguments about neoliberal society, cause you bought the book of JP cause he's simply famous and it will most likely bring zero value to you at best ( negative at worst) while there are tons of other shit you could read. Then again you are listening to it, so I'm assuming you most likely do that at the gym, meaning you'll probably not even remember much of it, which is good for you

And I know how you'll try to tell me you didn't buy it cause he's famous and give me some bullshit reasoning but at the end of the day it's exactly because of that, otherwise you'd spend money on something that gives you more value.

 Last edit: 28/05/2019 21:51

 
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