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2/4 heads up 250bbs deep

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JohnnyBologna   United States. Oct 25 2014 12:11. Posts 1384

Hi all. Just played a hand on WSOP.com the other day that has been kind of bothering me. In need of opinions.

So the villain is named KILL_NITS and i would describe him as someone who tries to do his name justice or make it appear that way at least.
1 notable hand early. i 3 bet him and he calls. raises my flop bet and barrels turn with 63hh on a 10 J 9 2 rainbow board. then proceeds to show me. so he might be setting me up or he read weakness blah blah blah.

OK background is out of the way on to the hand in question.

Villain(900): raises to 8

hero(covers): gots As Jd raises to 28 and he calls

FLOP: 2h 5h 9c i bet 36 he calls

turn: Ac i bet $90 he raises to 250?

so... doesnt the ace hit my range? cant i have AK? ive only played with him a few times, is he really trying to make me fold an ace? if i call turn do i call the river shove that he has set up?

i believe he calls my 3 bets very light and aces up are a possibility. the other is a turned draw semibluff. what do i do lp?

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By doing a little bit at a time, a lot can be done 

drone666   Brasil. Oct 26 2014 15:03. Posts 1468

im not really sure if I would barrel the turn 250bb deep, esp because its hard for you to get 3 streets of value, he will have all the A2s, A5s and A9 that made 2 pairs, and im not really sure if he will have many naked aces, so its unlikely that he will pay you turn + river with naked 9 or TT on this runout, and it will get you in a lot of tricky situations if the villain is aggro

plus you will need to defend your checking range on the turn and AJ looks a decent hand to do that ( maybe AJ is too strong, but AT would x/c for sure ), like if you have only hands like JJ that want to x/c the turn you will get in a lot of hard spots having to hero call all the time

as played you can't really fold the turn, there's 2 pretty clear gutshots that he has a lot in his preflop range, plus 2 flushdraws, would call and decide river i think


JohnnyBologna   United States. Oct 26 2014 19:18. Posts 1384

if you call turn and river bricks do you call a shove?

By doing a little bit at a time, a lot can be done 

casinocasino   Canada. Oct 27 2014 14:00. Posts 3250

I just dont understand what flop bet accomplishes.. He is not going to fold any pair, and while you get value from some draws, those draws have a lot of equity.

Regards to the turn I think I like check call since your range will have a lot of hands like TT, JJ, 9Ts which will be a lot better played with a check call, and this balanced both your ranges and makes you harder to play against.


AndrewSong    United States. Oct 27 2014 19:36. Posts 2334

check flop


fira   United States. Nov 08 2014 05:12. Posts 6199

agree w/ everything said

whats our pre 3bet range? do we have 22, 55, 34s or 95s?

seize the dayLast edit: 08/11/2014 05:13

NMcNasty    United States. Nov 08 2014 09:41. Posts 1789

Bet flop, its obviously standard, and check/calling and check/folding both kinda suck. Turn I prefer just c/c vs this player type, again on river if he bets turn. He'll take enough stabs and should even be betting some worse Axes that floated flop for value.

As played I just fold turn. Just having AJ-AK and barrelling through and not folding is super common, so I don't expect villain to be bluffing much in this spot despite your read.


fira   United States. Nov 08 2014 11:32. Posts 6199

vs someone whos very aggro, i'd prefer to check/call rather than bet

betting and getting raised sucks a lot more than check/calling

seize the dayLast edit: 08/11/2014 11:33

mnj   United States. Nov 10 2014 20:17. Posts 3848

c/f fold.

thats just a part of being oop in poker on top of being 250 bb deep.

deal with it


YoMeR   United States. Nov 14 2014 21:13. Posts 12342

your game as a whole seems to have leaks if we are 3 betting his OOP 250bb deep without a solid game plan on these types of board textures.

Seems like a lot of button clicking going on.

eZ Life. 

JohnnyBologna   United States. Nov 15 2014 04:34. Posts 1384

22 55 34s 95s are all in our three betting range. he calls me a "spazz lag tard."

uhh i 3 bet AJ i think thats pretty standard with everyone.

Flop bet - seems most controversial here with everyone. i figure that Ace high is good a lot of the times and he is calling light so I dont want to check and let him know i have two overs? is this thinking bad? im not a heads up specialist and only play on rare occasions after table breaks this was one of those occasions. I do this in 6max as well, cant be that bad to bet flop imo, so yeah there you have a flop bet.

Turn - i figure i have best hand and wanted turn and river value. pretty self explanatory imo and then when he raises i felt like he was expecting me to jam a lot of my aces so i decided to puke fold on turn, which in retrospect i think earns at least 1 call and check fold river.

By doing a little bit at a time, a lot can be done 

fira   United States. Nov 15 2014 17:49. Posts 6199

if he thinks u're a spazz lag tard, i like ur fold

i don't think he expects a spazz lag tard to fold here, and u having all the nutty combos definitely goes against his play

he also prob can't have AA whereas u can

seize the day 

AndrewSong    United States. Nov 19 2014 11:27. Posts 2334


  On November 15 2014 03:34 JohnnyBologna wrote:
22 55 34s 95s are all in our three betting range. he calls me a "spazz lag tard."

uhh i 3 bet AJ i think thats pretty standard with everyone.

Flop bet - seems most controversial here with everyone. i figure that Ace high is good a lot of the times and he is calling light so I dont want to check and let him know i have two overs? is this thinking bad? im not a heads up specialist and only play on rare occasions after table breaks this was one of those occasions. I do this in 6max as well, cant be that bad to bet flop imo, so yeah there you have a flop bet.

Turn - i figure i have best hand and wanted turn and river value. pretty self explanatory imo and then when he raises i felt like he was expecting me to jam a lot of my aces so i decided to puke fold on turn, which in retrospect i think earns at least 1 call and check fold river.



3betting AJo is fine and completely standard.

On flop, our hand is too good and also too weak to bet. It fits nicely in our x/c range.

When you bet flop, you aren't getting any better hands to fold and you also don't have any turns you look forward to besides hitting your pair. King/Queen/Ten turn brings too much draws to your perceived range and including this hand to bet those turn would make us over bluffing and the lower run out does not strengthen our fold equity vs a pair

When you check, a lot of the hands that may fold to a bet, may bet instead. Ideally, you would want him to check so you can realize your equity. Your range also should protect you from him over bluffing since you should have enough hands that can continue vs two bets in this texture.


LikeASet   United States. Nov 19 2014 12:14. Posts 2089

If this is our first 3 bet then i think c betting is fine since we're probably ahead of villain's range, we look strong, it sets up our turn barrels if a j, q , k hits. I wouldn't expect villain to ever check here if we check, and sometimes we'll get a fold from hands like suited connectors, gappers, and suited ax's that gained no equity on this board. When the turn comes an ace i don't like a bet as much since we can't rep any credible bluffs (not enough history) so we'll rarely get action from worst hands and stuff like this will sometimes happen. When we check the turn we can induce villane to turn weak pairs and floats to bluff and Ax gutshot type hands to valuetown themselves. Vs villans like this you have to show them you're not always checking to fold.

But ionno, andrew is a better pro so i'd probably put money on his line over a repeated simulation, I also realized I answered this based on the context of 6max...

 Last edit: 19/11/2014 17:43

lebowski   Greece. Nov 30 2014 17:52. Posts 8784


  On November 15 2014 03:34 JohnnyBologna wrote:

Turn - i figure i have best hand and wanted turn and river value. pretty self explanatory imo and then when he raises i felt like he was expecting me to jam a lot of my aces so i decided to puke fold on turn, which in retrospect i think earns at least 1 call and check fold river.


idk man it seems to me that he should be expecting you to call and not ship any of your hands, why would you ever jam any Ax hand or even AA here

new shit has come to light... a-and... shit! man... 

JohnnyBologna   United States. Dec 08 2014 13:40. Posts 1384


  On November 19 2014 10:27 AndrewSong wrote:
Show nested quote +



3betting AJo is fine and completely standard.

On flop, our hand is too good and also too weak to bet. It fits nicely in our x/c range.

When you bet flop, you aren't getting any better hands to fold and you also don't have any turns you look forward to besides hitting your pair. King/Queen/Ten turn brings too much draws to your perceived range and including this hand to bet those turn would make us over bluffing and the lower run out does not strengthen our fold equity vs a pair

When you check, a lot of the hands that may fold to a bet, may bet instead. Ideally, you would want him to check so you can realize your equity. Your range also should protect you from him over bluffing since you should have enough hands that can continue vs two bets in this texture.


definitely a different type of style that i am used too. at first, my thought was checking flop is exploitable. Mainly because i would always bet all strong hands here and after i check... well i dont got that strong a hand lol, leaving me vulnerable to a triple barrel.

i never even considered checking flop before until now. what a interesting way of playing. It looks like ive been stuck in 2008 aggresion style where people didnt play back at you as much and fold too much.

you make more money by checking flop because you keep worse hands in, even if you give up control of the pot and your hand is kind of face up. maybe i can balance it with some check raising hands to make up for that~ also you dont want to over-inflate the pot when deep OOP for obv reasons like the hands above.

Ive just been on the grind for way too long and burned out. stuck on autopilot and never really trying to take my game to the next level which is probably why ive been having trouble ascending to higher stakes. Its the leaks like these i feel that makes a huge difference in your profits in the long run and what makes an average player a great player.

thx for some insight. the part about our perceived bluffing range on turns was also very valuable, making me re-evaluate how people think about the game.

By doing a little bit at a time, a lot can be done 

!MeaL!   United States. Dec 12 2014 16:08. Posts 100


  On October 26 2014 18:18 JohnnyBologna wrote:
if you call turn and river bricks do you call a shove?



I would


!MeaL!   United States. Dec 12 2014 16:11. Posts 100

Even thought I like the comment someone said about not understandin the flop bet if he is calling either way. That's really true. Has played I would call and call river imo.


traxamillion   United States. Dec 25 2014 11:05. Posts 10242

andrew probably best player here, one of best still posting on this site. I'd listen to him, good range based advice.


TimDawg    United States. Dec 26 2014 11:22. Posts 10150

Positions are also pretty relevant here and I don't see them listed anywhere in the thread

But I don't have much to contribute. Everything Song said is spot on

online bob is actually a pretty smart person, not at all like the creepy fucker that sits in the sofa telling me he does nasty shit to me when im asleep - pinball 

 
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