Now the #1 esport in Korea - Page 6

On March 17 2012 16:13 TheHuHu3 wrote: Show nested quote + On March 17 2012 15:10 Endo wrote:   On March 17 2012 14:41 TheHuHu3 wrote: Games that require a skill cap but don't punish you for making mistakes or dying isn't balance at all; it's catering to the newb and casual players. I haven't played LoL but there is a mode in HoN (Casual Mode) that has almost the same game mechanics as LoL (but we don't have infinite town portals). It's so tremendously easy to win. Say you have a team of 1700 MMR (ELO in LoL's case) against an 1800+ MMR in normal match making. More often than not, the 1800 team will rape the 1700 team 8 times out of 10. That's because the 1800 team will usually deny better to prevent gold + exp gain for the 1700 team, and when the latter team's player die, they lose gold and time for doing so. In Casual Mode, the things that completely determine the outcome of the laning phase (creep denies and ganks / kills) don't even matter because there's no penalty. Even if you deny a creep, the team still gets full experience so there's no point in denying. If a hero dies, then oh well. Nothing changed. They can still come back and beat the 1800 team because the nuances that matter so much in Normal Mode don't mean shit in Casual Mode. A big part of the game in LoL is the overall understanding of the game. I'm currently ~2000 elo (which is in the top 0.1% of the players of the game) where I play competitively with all the pros you see on streams and broadcasted. Your default rank when you start playing ranked at level 30 is 1200. To give you an idea of how much of a skill level difference there is, I'm pulling some stats from season 1's elo's. It is a bell curve distribution. 1250 (Bronze) is top 25%, 1400 (Silver) is top 10%, 1520 (gold) is top 3%, 1900 (Platinum) is top 0.2%. Now if I were to ever play against a 1700 player, I should win about 8/10 times. Laning mechanics, rune choices, itemization, teamfight decisions, control of objectives, control of creep waves, warding and counterwarding, setting up baits, and a lot more game understanding are what separates me from that elo. Sure, I can't deny creeps, But that doesnt mean if I set up a kill on him and snowball the lane, I can't zone him away from xp and creeps anyways. Killing creeps isn't as easy as you'd think. Often when you go for a creep, a top-tier player will layer on free damage (whether it be an auto attack and an ability, or otherwise) and when that damage adds up, you soon get zoned from your own creeps. What I think you're overlooking is that LoL isn't just a simple "kill creeps, get items, win teamfights, win game" sort of game. There is suuuuch a more complex idea of how to win a game, what to do in a very short reactive period of time and that's things people often overlook. Also, in regards to why denying isn't a feature in League: It gimps melee champions too much. It gives no incentive to play anything other than a ranged champion because especially in early levels where auto attacks do quite a significant % of damage of total health, you can do little tricks like auto attack the other champion and then go into brush to lose creep/minion aggro. It's easier to deny as ranged champions as well, and often forces melee champions out of lane. (This is actually still a trick people use to play against a lot of toplane melee champs in the game, btw. It would snowball infinitely harder if there WERE denying involved). This would, effectively, make most of the melee champions unplayable. To balance the game a bit and allow for more matchups, denying was not introduced as a mechanic to LoL. I'm not sure how minion aggro/melee heroes laning works in HoN, and perhaps they have a solution for it, but in LoL, not having denying actually opens up teh game to a lot more possibilities of interesting choices for doing certain champs. The laning phase you describe in LoL is the same in HoN. When a melee hero goes for a creep kill or deny, usually the ranged support of the opposing team will smack him / cast a spell on him to punish him for doing so. But HoN has found a sort of balance in this because the current meta game is melee strength / tank heroes that can withstand the harass and get their creep kills / denies. USUALLY a melee hero can out creep a ranged just because there's no projectile traveling time for auto attacks, like range heroes have. Don't know how it is in LoL, but range heroes in HoN have differing attack animations / auto-attack cast time / traveling time / actual range. How are the range heroes in LoL?

Yea the projectile speeds for AD champions differ. Now do auto attacks not do that much damage at early stages in a game? At level 1, assuming no runes and masteries, a champion has around 450-550 health. Auto attacks without runes or masteries do around 50-60 damage. Assuming runes and masteries, using abilities and auto attacks, a champ can die in about 5-6 auto attacks (assuming abilities are also used). How do melee/tank champions 'withstand' that, so to speak? Is the leveling extremely quick, so that they become tanky really fast, or do minions aggro do too much damage so champions are deterred from attacking other champions?

It is pretty rare for a melee champ to beat a ranged champ in laning phase unless that melee champ has a huge burst and gap closing ability

On March 17 2012 16:58 Souone wrote: Show nested quote + On March 17 2012 16:09 Endo wrote: When I played DOTA (Not DOTA 2) I remember how 1 champion could 1v5 others by snowballing. Is this no longer the case? Right now in LoL there is no instance where a champion could 1v5 under any circumstance (assuming teams weren't trying to lose on purpose). Regarding denying tho-- a big part of farming is being able to keep your lane at a certain place due to managing creeps in a certain way and being able to farm under tower. If you could be denied that farm under tower as well (for example, imagine a high range champion ...dwarven sniper(Dota)/Caitlyn(Lol)) being able to attack a melee who is coming up to attack creeps under tower, and then denying htem that creep as well...well there is no way they'd be able to survive the lane being gold starved and xp starved. I'd say that game turns into a 5v4 since the other toplaner would be gimped so much. If what I'm saying is a bit confusing, I'll try to make a short 20-30 second youtube vid illustrating how ranged champs against melee is already strong, and how denying would completely make that lane unplayable as melee. You're right though that Sion and Galio can still farm as melee, but that's because they have certain spells (as mid or top) that can clear waves of minions in 1 burst. Not all melee champions have that though, and they'd see much less play if denying were introduced. I think I understand your point regarding denying, I just don't think it would really change anything for melee champs that can already stand against ranged ones well, sure it would be worse if you wanted to play something like Fizz, Fizz would probably really get f***ed by a ranged champ mid if denying was available, but I don't think champs like Sion or Galio would. Meaning it would probably widen the gap between "bad" soloing melees, but wouldn't really change much for the "good" ones, might even improve sometimes. In my personal opinion, and my main reason for the replies, is that both LoL and Dota/HoN players blow the denying thing out of proportion (and other things), LoL is fine without it and so is Dota/HoN with it. I think both games have their merits and people just try to pick little things to bash the other game and it's just really silly and most of the time doesn't really matter all that much. And 1v5 in Dota is probably possible specially in pubs where people are horrible, but in competitive games I don't see how. The big difference in Dota and LoL on this matter is that while LoL you have lineups with pretty much 4 carry/semi-carry heroes (Jungler, solo top, AD an AP carry, all those can potentially lead your team to victory) in Dota you have like 1 hard carry + 1 semi-carry or 2/3 semi-carries or no carry at all + gankers/supports, because the carry hero is usually bad early game, really bad, and pretty much as a rule, the harder carry he is the worst he is early game, some heroes like Spectre can 1v5 the enemy team if he gets really fed, but he is just so bad early game that this is very unlikely, because he just wont get big enough. And in the current metagame, where pushing is the law, you hardly see these massive carries, pretty much only Anti-mage because he is really annoying and kinda immortal, but even he is fading out.

That rule is also pretty much correct in LoL, although instead of a dedicated "hard carry", the mantra is if a champion gets put really really ahead, he shoudl be able to buy items and destroy teams. A ranged ad and a burst or assassin champion usually are necessary to win high level games because the burst champion can take down the other team's ranged ad in late game and the ranged ad is the only person who can build pure damage and with good positioning, survive.

Do Dota 2 and HoN have anything similar to summoner spells? I think that's a very clever thing introduced to the game since Dota since it allows for really creative gameplay.

On March 17 2012 17:11 Endo wrote: That rule is also pretty much correct in LoL, although instead of a dedicated "hard carry", the mantra is if a champion gets put really really ahead, he shoudl be able to buy items and destroy teams. A ranged ad and a burst or assassin champion usually are necessary to win high level games because the burst champion can take down the other team's ranged ad in late game and the ranged ad is the only person who can build pure damage and with good positioning, survive. Do Dota 2 and HoN have anything similar to summoner spells? I think that's a very clever thing introduced to the game since Dota since it allows for really creative gameplay.

No summoner spells, but I think Dota/HoN offers a lot of customization via items, there are pretty much items for everything, blinking, magical immunity, physical immunity, nuking, invisibility, slowing, stunning, disarming, creating copies, burning mana, silencing and so on.

On March 17 2012 17:07 Endo wrote: Show nested quote + On March 17 2012 16:13 TheHuHu3 wrote:   On March 17 2012 15:10 Endo wrote:   On March 17 2012 14:41 TheHuHu3 wrote: Games that require a skill cap but don't punish you for making mistakes or dying isn't balance at all; it's catering to the newb and casual players. I haven't played LoL but there is a mode in HoN (Casual Mode) that has almost the same game mechanics as LoL (but we don't have infinite town portals). It's so tremendously easy to win. Say you have a team of 1700 MMR (ELO in LoL's case) against an 1800+ MMR in normal match making. More often than not, the 1800 team will rape the 1700 team 8 times out of 10. That's because the 1800 team will usually deny better to prevent gold + exp gain for the 1700 team, and when the latter team's player die, they lose gold and time for doing so. In Casual Mode, the things that completely determine the outcome of the laning phase (creep denies and ganks / kills) don't even matter because there's no penalty. Even if you deny a creep, the team still gets full experience so there's no point in denying. If a hero dies, then oh well. Nothing changed. They can still come back and beat the 1800 team because the nuances that matter so much in Normal Mode don't mean shit in Casual Mode. A big part of the game in LoL is the overall understanding of the game. I'm currently ~2000 elo (which is in the top 0.1% of the players of the game) where I play competitively with all the pros you see on streams and broadcasted. Your default rank when you start playing ranked at level 30 is 1200. To give you an idea of how much of a skill level difference there is, I'm pulling some stats from season 1's elo's. It is a bell curve distribution. 1250 (Bronze) is top 25%, 1400 (Silver) is top 10%, 1520 (gold) is top 3%, 1900 (Platinum) is top 0.2%. Now if I were to ever play against a 1700 player, I should win about 8/10 times. Laning mechanics, rune choices, itemization, teamfight decisions, control of objectives, control of creep waves, warding and counterwarding, setting up baits, and a lot more game understanding are what separates me from that elo. Sure, I can't deny creeps, But that doesnt mean if I set up a kill on him and snowball the lane, I can't zone him away from xp and creeps anyways. Killing creeps isn't as easy as you'd think. Often when you go for a creep, a top-tier player will layer on free damage (whether it be an auto attack and an ability, or otherwise) and when that damage adds up, you soon get zoned from your own creeps. What I think you're overlooking is that LoL isn't just a simple "kill creeps, get items, win teamfights, win game" sort of game. There is suuuuch a more complex idea of how to win a game, what to do in a very short reactive period of time and that's things people often overlook. Also, in regards to why denying isn't a feature in League: It gimps melee champions too much. It gives no incentive to play anything other than a ranged champion because especially in early levels where auto attacks do quite a significant % of damage of total health, you can do little tricks like auto attack the other champion and then go into brush to lose creep/minion aggro. It's easier to deny as ranged champions as well, and often forces melee champions out of lane. (This is actually still a trick people use to play against a lot of toplane melee champs in the game, btw. It would snowball infinitely harder if there WERE denying involved). This would, effectively, make most of the melee champions unplayable. To balance the game a bit and allow for more matchups, denying was not introduced as a mechanic to LoL. I'm not sure how minion aggro/melee heroes laning works in HoN, and perhaps they have a solution for it, but in LoL, not having denying actually opens up teh game to a lot more possibilities of interesting choices for doing certain champs. The laning phase you describe in LoL is the same in HoN. When a melee hero goes for a creep kill or deny, usually the ranged support of the opposing team will smack him / cast a spell on him to punish him for doing so. But HoN has found a sort of balance in this because the current meta game is melee strength / tank heroes that can withstand the harass and get their creep kills / denies. USUALLY a melee hero can out creep a ranged just because there's no projectile traveling time for auto attacks, like range heroes have. Don't know how it is in LoL, but range heroes in HoN have differing attack animations / auto-attack cast time / traveling time / actual range. How are the range heroes in LoL? Yea the projectile speeds for AD champions differ. Now do auto attacks not do that much damage at early stages in a game? At level 1, assuming no runes and masteries, a champion has around 450-550 health. Auto attacks without runes or masteries do around 50-60 damage. Assuming runes and masteries, using abilities and auto attacks, a champ can die in about 5-6 auto attacks (assuming abilities are also used). How do melee/tank champions 'withstand' that, so to speak? Is the leveling extremely quick, so that they become tanky really fast, or do minions aggro do too much damage so champions are deterred from attacking other champions? It is pretty rare for a melee champ to beat a ranged champ in laning phase unless that melee champ has a huge burst and gap closing ability

If you're talking 1v1 melee vs. ranged at the mid lane it's probably actually pretty even. But in a 2v2 laning phase, melee heroes will always get a Stout Shield that blocks 20 damage from ranged auto attacks, and 40 from melee auto attacks.

The thing is, every single melee agility carry hero has a way of closing the gap between him and a hero very quickly and effectively whilst doing damage. Almost all strength melee heroes have a slow or stun or rush type ability on them that makes it balanced for those 1v1 battles against ranged. Off the top of my head I can't think of any melee that can't, for the most part, fight toe-to-toe with a ranged hero. I think S2 was aware of how ranged "naturally" has an edge in battles so they gave every melee hero at least a fighting chance vs. them and not get kited for eternity.

I don't know what runes and masteries are for heroes in LoL, but every hero in HoN starts at level 1 with 600 gold no matter what.

this thread went from a cool videogame esport nostalgia thread to a bunch of people arguing about which shitty casual game is less casual than the other.

On March 18 2012 03:15 byrnesam wrote: this thread went from a cool videogame esport nostalgia thread to a bunch of people arguing about which shitty casual game is less casual than the other.

ok

On March 15 2012 01:30 Rapoza wrote: Obv top CS players got amazin skill/reflexes like any other top players do(LoL included) but even at top CS games its all about "camp iN shoot"(CS) While Unreal Tourament fights = Matrix and worse players hardly can kill you 1 single time, most CS maps are too short, fights always happens the same way at the same spots, over and over again. Its a lot more about timing and who do less mistakes over who got more skills, even noobs can kill you when u do a mistake(like being hit by a flash granade, or while disarming a bomb) I still like CS over Unreal, my favorite FPS is Battlefield but saying CS need "insane" skills is just... lol, my guess is OP only played CS his entire life, its like saying Age of Empires needs "insane" skills that Bw pros do

have you ever played cs at a high level? the reason why higher level match games in cs is a bit more passive at times is cuz everyone is so fucking good you make one misstep and you get an AK one shot to the face...

any competitive player goes into a pub game and they consistently get banned for "hacking"... The skill cap in cs is amazingly high but you don't seem to know this at all.