I dunno about Dan's credibility tbh. He's been linked to scummy behavior in the past and Dwan has not. Also Dwan historically is not really the type to just write off some debt just because he can, Im not sure about all this but I think Dwan will have some explanation - its just weird he is not talking but we here him slaying shit in macau for fuckloads of money.
That whole portugese prodigy thing along with living with wcgrider and multiaccounting bullshit plus all these angleshooting youtube videos is really making Dan seem like a weird dude capable of shit
On September 24 2014 09:00 TalentedTom wrote:
i thought all of this stuff was escrowed, dan is 100% right here. He should be able to take this to an American court, the bet was highly publicized and the details are available online. Tom is clearly being an asshole, I'm sure at the time of the bet he was willing to pay (money was rolling in), maybe he hasn't recovered properly post ilisdur1 era
yeaah i really doubt a "verbal contract" will win a million dollar case. Cates should probably do jail time otherwise cuz of portuguese kid
Last edit: 24/09/2014 11:10
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traxamillion United States. Sep 24 2014 11:37. Posts 10468
Jungleman might be somewhat right here but usually the guy is a scummy sociopath so fuck him.
Dwan might be playing big in Macau but it is possible from what I hear that he is staked in those games.
Most people understand that Dwan is an underdog to Jungleman in HUNLHE online. Dwan is losing at a large rate in the challenge.
It would be reasonable to infer that although Dwan may be playing high stakes in some games (Macau) he may be unable to play in others (Online vs Jungle) because his backers are only willing to give him money for games in which they think he has an edge (Macau).
He might be in makeup and completely unable to play outside the stake
It is therefore possible Dwan does not have the money to play 30k or whatever more hands of 200/400 online and pay out 1.5 million upon a potential loss.
If he doesn't have the money he cannot play simple as that. No matter what people think or what Jungleman says nothing can change that (outside of Dwan acquiring the money to play). If this is the case I would not call his behavior scummy because his lack of play is not intentional. It is due to his lack of funds which could have potentially been cause by his extensive and unexpected losses in the early hands of the challenge itself.
So Scummy no: unfortunate, irresponsible, shortsighted .... probably.
On September 24 2014 10:03 whamm! wrote:
I dunno about Dan's credibility tbh. He's been linked to scummy behavior in the past and Dwan has not. Also Dwan historically is not really the type to just write off some debt just because he can, Im not sure about all this but I think Dwan will have some explanation - its just weird he is not talking but we here him slaying shit in macau for fuckloads of money.
That whole portugese prodigy thing along with living with wcgrider and multiaccounting bullshit plus all these angleshooting youtube videos is really making Dan seem like a weird dude capable of shit
It makes perfect sense he's not "talking". Everything he says Jungleman has used and will continue use to attack Dwan's image and credibility publicly using interviews like this until Dwan tells him he's going to play. There's no reason for them to talk, the terms are set and being automatically paid as jungle currently owes Dwan. So, expect not to hear from Dwan until they settle or until it happens.
if poker is dangerous to them i would rank sports betting as a Kodiak grizzly bear who smells blood after you just threw a javelin into his cub - RaiNKhAN
Situations like these piss me off, because in this community people who welch on bets / owe money for too long get far too much leeway. If he's broke the very least he can do is admit it, say that paying up is his current priority.
Dwan isn't welching and not officially. Don't listen to Jungleman, he's made an agreement and is getting paid while the challenge is on hold. Dwan doesn't have to admit anything or say "paying up" is his priority. He doesn't have anything to pay up until they decide to settle the challenge rather than play it out someday. He's already paying temporarily per the agreement they made... Jungle either wants to finish the challenge or to attack Dwan's reputation as much as possible. Would you talk/text regularly with a guy like that?
if poker is dangerous to them i would rank sports betting as a Kodiak grizzly bear who smells blood after you just threw a javelin into his cub - RaiNKhAN
Even if Dwan comes out with a statement that he wont play nor pay, I'd still consider Cates the bigger douchebag. You guys underestimate the shit he s done past years. Plus that 30k hands HU bet was done in completely different times for poker. Dwan can just come out and say some shit like "I wont play Cates because i have doubts he s not playing alone vs me" and 90% of people would believe him, the lengths Cates has gone to scam people are so long he doesn't deserve a drop of respect.
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Santafairy Korea (South). Sep 24 2014 13:43. Posts 2227
it seems like dwan has more fans despite, or perhaps because of, the fact that jungleman is the only one making statements
It seems to be not very profitable in the long run to play those kind of hands. - Gus Hansen
On September 24 2014 11:17 ggplz wrote:
Dwan isn't welching and not officially. Don't listen to Jungleman, he's made an agreement and is getting paid while the challenge is on hold. Dwan doesn't have to admit anything or say "paying up" is his priority. He doesn't have anything to pay up until they decide to settle the challenge rather than play it out someday. He's already paying temporarily per the agreement they made... Jungle either wants to finish the challenge or to attack Dwan's reputation as much as possible. Would you talk/text regularly with a guy like that?
but he's not getting paid while the challenge is on hold, tom agreed to do that but he's welching on that agreement now too.
how long do you think dan should have to wait while tom refuses to answer his phone calls and texts before he can claim tom is welching on the bet? 2020?
if he doesn't have the money then he should attempt to work out some kind of payment plan or show some kind of sign of good faith. dan has said many times that he's willing to settle if tom would show any kind of willingness. and not that i think tom is obligated to make any kind of public statement about his situation, but the fact that he hasn't speaks volumes, he's gone on 2+2 to publicly clarify much smaller issues in the past.
As for the finances involved, Dan told me that apart from the ‘challenge’ itself, he currently owes Dwan money, though that debt is currently being eaten away by the penalties Dwan is being charged as part of the challenge. Because of this arrangement, money isn’t currently passing between the two players.
Jungleman agreed to what he agreed to. No use crying to flushdraw.net or anywhere else because he has to simply wait and collect $ in the interim.
There's no payment plan to be made... Dwan's position is that he intends to play, eventually. If he changes his mind then officially he'll come out and settle with Jungle.. until then payments are being made as they both already agreed.
Jungle publicly states he has an edge. Dwan says nothing. Whether or not Jungle is trying to convince Dwan to settle is something we should be thinking about. Dwan's refusal to settle could just as easily be that he intends to crush Jungleman when he has the means to (if he's broke). I think both are highly capable and closely matched players who may or may not have an edge on eachother but it's likely they both believe they have an edge on each other.
if poker is dangerous to them i would rank sports betting as a Kodiak grizzly bear who smells blood after you just threw a javelin into his cub - RaiNKhAN
re: the penalties, i was going based off what was on pokerlistings
Dwan has incurred hundreds of thousands of dollars in penalties, of which he's paid none, and according to Jungleman if things don't change soon he'll be forced to reveal aspects of Tom's personal situation he'd prefer to keep private. [...]
Dwan was to pay Cates $40,000 for every two months that went by with no durrrr Challenge activity. Additionally, $10,000 was to be added to the penalty every two months. They didn't count the two months last summer during the World Series of Poker.
That number is now at $300,000 and according to Cates, Dwan hasn't paid him a cent.
so apparently that part is a bit misleading, assuming the other interview is correct.
anyway, if tom's intention is to finish the challenge, what do you think is a reasonable timeframe? do you think he should be allowed to stall indefinitely? the only reason dan would want tom to settle is because he thinks he's a deadbeat and he won't be able to get anymore out of him, of course jungleman would prefer to finish the challenge (at a rate of more than 17 hands per year).
and of course jungle has an edge lol...i mean i feel weird saying this because i don't think my opinion on the top HUNL players in the world deserves any particular merit, but every highstakes player who's given their opinion on the matter always ranks jungle at least top 5 (at worst) and doesn't rank durrr in the top 10, or top 20, or anywhere near, maybe tom is just metagaming them all though.
Exactly. Now that you know that, how does Jungle look for threatening to spread information presumably to damage Dwan's public image given that Dwan is actually complying with their holdover agreement? Jungle is a real class act and not honourable or understanding in the slightest otherwise he'd keep that to himself. If he knows Dwan isn't doing very well atm then even more so, right? I wonder why Dwan doesn't return Jungle's phone calls/texts...
if poker is dangerous to them i would rank sports betting as a Kodiak grizzly bear who smells blood after you just threw a javelin into his cub - RaiNKhAN
As for the finances involved, Dan told me that apart from the ‘challenge’ itself, he currently owes Dwan money, though that debt is currently being eaten away by the penalties Dwan is being charged as part of the challenge. Because of this arrangement, money isn’t currently passing between the two players.
Jungleman agreed to what he agreed to. No use crying to flushdraw.net or anywhere else because he has to simply wait and collect $ in the interim.
There's no payment plan to be made... Dwan's position is that he intends to play, eventually. If he changes his mind then officially he'll come out and settle with Jungle.. until then payments are being made as they both already agreed.
Jungle publicly states he has an edge. Dwan says nothing. Whether or not Jungle is trying to convince Dwan to settle is something we should be thinking about. Dwan's refusal to settle could just as easily be that he intends to crush Jungleman when he has the means to (if he's broke). I think both are highly capable and closely matched players who may or may not have an edge on eachother but it's likely they both believe they have an edge on each other.
Tom "durrrr" Dwan vs Daniel "jungleman12" Cates
Leader: Daniel "jungleman12" Cates
Up by: $1,251,059.00
Total Hands Played: 19,335
Total Hands Remaining: 30,665
Challenge Started: August 2010
4 years is plenty to play 50k hands. Originally I thought these things would take just a few months. Even If they played a ~ 1k hands a month they would be done by now. If Dwan has lost a large % of his net worth over the last few years, he's probably in a very shitty (tilty) mental phase, and probably does not have edge vs jungle, who plays like a well oiled machine.
I think there was a certain spirit when the challenge was issued, that he would play anyone at anytime. When dawn was crushing Antonius, Antonius stopped playing dwan is doing the same to jungeman now, difference being his penalty is way larger.
Seems to be a lot of these guys are "badasse's / heroes / ballers" when times are good but scumbags / dodgers when times get tough
Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light not our darkness that most frightens us and as we let our own lights shine we unconsciously give other people permision to do the same
On September 24 2014 14:45 ggplz wrote:
Exactly. Now that you know that, how does Jungle look for threatening to spread information presumably to damage Dwan's public image given that Dwan is actually complying with their holdover agreement? Jungle is a real class act and not honourable or understanding in the slightest otherwise he'd keep that to himself. If he knows Dwan isn't doing very well atm then even more so, right? I wonder why Dwan doesn't return Jungle's phone calls/texts...
i think he's been incredibly patient with tom, it's been 4 years ffs (maybe not patient out of the goodness of his heart, but probably because he doesn't have any better options). fwiw the article you linked doesn't exactly imply that dwan is complying willingly. it doesn't say anything about him agreeing to jungle withholding the money from the limit holdem propbet match and deducting the penalty payments, it just says that's what jungle has decided to do.
how long exactly is jungle supposed to keep all of this to himself? given how long this has been going on, it seems like he did just that for a long time, probably due to his own naivete believing tom would be honorable. you have it backwards, jungle is outing durr's scummy behavior because he won't even make a reasonable effort to communicate with him, durr isn't refusing to communicate with him because of jungle outing him.
Bottom line is, a bet is a bet, gamblers do not rely on anything but their honesty and integrity.
I remember when this started, a chat between Dwan and Jungleman was posted somewhere, where Dwan asked jungleman to escrow the 500k to Ivey which he gladly did. But Dwan never escrowed anything because he probably felt like he was gonna win for sure.
Like I said a bet is a bet, your word becomes your bond, and when a situation like this goes public then your integrity and honesty gets tarnished, no one will want to take action with or against you. And if gambling is how you make a living then its pretty much gg.
longple: ur missing the point! this is an attempt to get away from the bumhuntmentality!
That's pretty speculative and Jungle has been very open about this for a long time and not silent for 4 years like you claim. The communication between them has to be more complex than we're led to believe...
He will wait as long as Dwan wants him to wait. Really, it should be resolved somehow either through settling or playing it out but they both agreed on this limbo state and that's the end of it for now. The purpose of the agreement they made to payout every few months of missed play by Dwan is that Jungleman is happier with the delay. Apparently, he's not. Not Dwan's problem as long as Jungleman keeps receiving money by deducting his debt to Dwan or through future payments.
Just want to point out that when FTP/PS shutdown for US players on April 15 2011 that pretty much killed online play for people inside US unless they moved out and set up some form of residence and a bank account. Not sure when Dwan did that. Also, he was a red pro right? Pretty sure they lost everything they had on FTP. The period between then and whenever Tom re-established his acc can't really be counted.
Was this ever clarified btw? Not sure what big issue he was talking about in this interview. Dated 7 Feb 2014.
if poker is dangerous to them i would rank sports betting as a Kodiak grizzly bear who smells blood after you just threw a javelin into his cub - RaiNKhAN
Last edit: 24/09/2014 18:35
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chris United States. Sep 24 2014 19:03. Posts 5503
didnt dwan help bail out those chinese businessmen/triad members?
The fact that some of you are defending Dwan here scares the shit out of me, im always getting an escrow regardless of who I am dealing with apparently people have a broken moral compass.
If Dwan is broke (a broke man sitting with millions on Macau tables) then he forefits the fucking challenge, accept the loss and discusses a payment deal with Jungleman period.
I dont care if Jungle is an egotistical asshole, and what he has done, in this particular case he is absolutely right and he has been very patient, if I were him I would have blasted Dwan publicly waaaay before and I would be already seeking violent ways to collect my money
^^ I too am surprised with all the people defending dawn, for me this isn't even close Cates should just take legal action, dawn seems to be a huge asshole about the whole thing. I think there was a similar case w/ Jamie gold about WSOP ME when he owned his buddy half and refused to pay on a non official agreement between the two. He ended up losing. This dawn bet has way more evidence
Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light not our darkness that most frightens us and as we let our own lights shine we unconsciously give other people permision to do the same
Poland. Sep 24 2014 12:11. Posts 1982
