Recently Ted Forrest revealed that Mike Matusow has paid him just $70,000 out of a $1,800,000 debt and that caused a huge discussion in the poker world: should people who try to dodge their debts be outed in public? It looks like the discussion struck few players and we are to witness more issues brought to public attention, this time between two of the top young poker geniuses: Daniel "jungleman12" Cates and Tom "durrrr" Dwan.
The whole uproar is about the famous "durrrr Challenge", where Dwan said he can beat any other online high stakes pro over 50,000 hands and he decided to offer $1,500,000 (on top of the any money won) to the players who manages to do so. If he wins, he would get extra $500,000.
Daniel "jungleman12" Cates was one of the challengers, and the battle began in 2010. It was going quite well: they played 19,335 hands (with jungleman12 being up $1,251,059) and then whole action suddenly died. It looks like Daniel is pushing to finish the challenge, but durrrr is dodging the action: "I would love to continue the challenge, I think Tom is drawing stone dead versus me", Cates told flushdraw.net in a recent interview. "But I think he can't own up to the fact that he's unable to complete it."
But that's not everything: durrrr promised to get back to their fight offered to pay Cates an extra $40,000 for every two months that go by without any action between them. By now, Cates says, Dwan owes him another $300,000 in penalties and refuses to pay.
"He failed to uphold any promises he made to me", Cates told PokerListings in an interview. "He is extremely frustrating, it's outrageous. I feel like he won't complete it", Cates continued. "For now I won't divulge his personal situation. But I'm not thrilled with anything I hear about him, his friend says he won't do business with him anymore because he's totally insane."
* Dwan owes $300,000 in penalties for ducking out of the challenge.
* Cates says "I feel like he won't complete it, for a few reasons, but for now I won't divulge his personal situation. But I'm not thrilled with anything I hear about him."
* Cates confirmed he was involved in the cross-booked prop bet of Dwan vs the HU limit bot. (Dwan beat the bot).
* Dwan may have won $1.5 million from the side bets, but Cates apparently hasn't paid up his share because "Since I have good reason to think he is unable to complete the challenge at all, I am deducting it from what he owes me."
* Dwan doesn't respond to Cates's phone calls/texts.
* Cates says "In the future I won't be doing any business with him unless there is some kind of guarantee or escrow."
Ryan Neilly United States. Sep 23 2014 21:10. Posts 1631
dwan is not a ftp pro anymore, wasn't this all for FTP? or was this all to feed his ego?
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Nitewin United States. Sep 23 2014 21:13. Posts 1539
It was to get people to play him at nosebleed stakes so he could make money. He couldn't beat this guy and had a way out of the bet, who wouldn't take it?
Cates has a valid point but at the same time a lot has changed since 2010. It prob sucks to leave a few mil on a pokersite you no longer play on (afaik?) when you're grinding a lot of live poker. Black friday changed a ton of things for players... now Dwan can only play when both him and Cates are outside USA without other obligations. That just sucks! Also, Cates is one angry and egotistical dude... how do you think the phone calls and texts they had went? Only 1 side of the story.
if poker is dangerous to them i would rank sports betting as a Kodiak grizzly bear who smells blood after you just threw a javelin into his cub - RaiNKhAN
On September 23 2014 22:38 ggplz wrote:
Cates has a valid point but at the same time a lot has changed since 2010. It prob sucks to leave a few mil on a pokersite you no longer play on (afaik?) when you're grinding a lot of live poker. Black friday changed a ton of things for players... now Dwan can only play when both him and Cates are outside USA without other obligations. That just sucks! Also, Cates is one angry and egotistical dude... how do you think the phone calls and texts they had went? Only 1 side of the story.
What in the fuck, Dan is 100% right in everything he is doing, he is egoitistical? who gives a shit Dwan is stealing from him, and we only know one side of the story because Dwan hasnt said shit about if for 4 years.
On September 23 2014 22:38 ggplz wrote:
Cates has a valid point but at the same time a lot has changed since 2010. It prob sucks to leave a few mil on a pokersite you no longer play on (afaik?) when you're grinding a lot of live poker. Black friday changed a ton of things for players... now Dwan can only play when both him and Cates are outside USA without other obligations. That just sucks! Also, Cates is one angry and egotistical dude... how do you think the phone calls and texts they had went? Only 1 side of the story.
What in the fuck, Dan is 100% right in everything he is doing, he is egoitistical? who gives a shit Dwan is stealing from him, and we only know one side of the story because Dwan hasnt said shit about if for 4 years.
On September 23 2014 22:38 ggplz wrote:
Cates has a valid point but at the same time a lot has changed since 2010. It prob sucks to leave a few mil on a pokersite you no longer play on (afaik?) when you're grinding a lot of live poker. Black friday changed a ton of things for players... now Dwan can only play when both him and Cates are outside USA without other obligations. That just sucks! Also, Cates is one angry and egotistical dude... how do you think the phone calls and texts they had went? Only 1 side of the story.
What in the fuck, Dan is 100% right in everything he is doing, he is egoitistical? who gives a shit Dwan is stealing from him, and we only know one side of the story because Dwan hasnt said shit about if for 4 years.
How can people excuse him its beyond me.
I don't follow the pro drama much but wasn't there a bunch of rumors Durrr was busto? Not much he can do to finish the challenge if that's the case.
Hey Im slinging mad volume and fat stackin benjies I dont got time for spellin n shit - skinny pete
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Santafairy Korea (South). Sep 24 2014 04:48. Posts 2227
i can accept dwan doesn't want to play on ftp or whatever and his schedule (maybe he is insane he only played the main event at WSOP) and his money is tied up elsewhere but honestly find a way to settle
It seems to be not very profitable in the long run to play those kind of hands. - Gus Hansen
On September 23 2014 22:38 ggplz wrote:
Cates has a valid point but at the same time a lot has changed since 2010. It prob sucks to leave a few mil on a pokersite you no longer play on (afaik?) when you're grinding a lot of live poker. Black friday changed a ton of things for players... now Dwan can only play when both him and Cates are outside USA without other obligations. That just sucks! Also, Cates is one angry and egotistical dude... how do you think the phone calls and texts they had went? Only 1 side of the story.
What in the fuck, Dan is 100% right in everything he is doing, he is egoitistical? who gives a shit Dwan is stealing from him, and we only know one side of the story because Dwan hasnt said shit about if for 4 years.
On September 23 2014 22:38 ggplz wrote:
Cates has a valid point but at the same time a lot has changed since 2010. It prob sucks to leave a few mil on a pokersite you no longer play on (afaik?) when you're grinding a lot of live poker. Black friday changed a ton of things for players... now Dwan can only play when both him and Cates are outside USA without other obligations. That just sucks! Also, Cates is one angry and egotistical dude... how do you think the phone calls and texts they had went? Only 1 side of the story.
What in the fuck, Dan is 100% right in everything he is doing, he is egoitistical? who gives a shit Dwan is stealing from him, and we only know one side of the story because Dwan hasnt said shit about if for 4 years.
How can people excuse him its beyond me.
Yeah, he is egotistical and unable to control his anger. Still, we're only getting 1 side and Dwan has definitely talked with Jungleman in that time ofc. Technically Dwan is postponing it with an agreement to pay penalties in the meantime from a debt Jungleman already owes Dwan. That isn't stealing. Jungleman thinks he has a huge edge and even if he didn't and it was just too difficult to complete the bet nowadays I don't think he would settle for a reasonable amount. They definitely should settle tho or find a way to play it out.
if poker is dangerous to them i would rank sports betting as a Kodiak grizzly bear who smells blood after you just threw a javelin into his cub - RaiNKhAN
i thought all of this stuff was escrowed, dan is 100% right here. He should be able to take this to an American court, the bet was highly publicized and the details are available online. Tom is clearly being an asshole, I'm sure at the time of the bet he was willing to pay (money was rolling in), maybe he hasn't recovered properly post ilisdur1 era
Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light not our darkness that most frightens us and as we let our own lights shine we unconsciously give other people permision to do the same
I dunno about Dan's credibility tbh. He's been linked to scummy behavior in the past and Dwan has not. Also Dwan historically is not really the type to just write off some debt just because he can, Im not sure about all this but I think Dwan will have some explanation - its just weird he is not talking but we here him slaying shit in macau for fuckloads of money.
That whole portugese prodigy thing along with living with wcgrider and multiaccounting bullshit plus all these angleshooting youtube videos is really making Dan seem like a weird dude capable of shit
On September 24 2014 09:00 TalentedTom wrote:
i thought all of this stuff was escrowed, dan is 100% right here. He should be able to take this to an American court, the bet was highly publicized and the details are available online. Tom is clearly being an asshole, I'm sure at the time of the bet he was willing to pay (money was rolling in), maybe he hasn't recovered properly post ilisdur1 era
yeaah i really doubt a "verbal contract" will win a million dollar case. Cates should probably do jail time otherwise cuz of portuguese kid
Last edit: 24/09/2014 11:10
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traxamillion United States. Sep 24 2014 11:37. Posts 10468
Jungleman might be somewhat right here but usually the guy is a scummy sociopath so fuck him.
Dwan might be playing big in Macau but it is possible from what I hear that he is staked in those games.
Most people understand that Dwan is an underdog to Jungleman in HUNLHE online. Dwan is losing at a large rate in the challenge.
It would be reasonable to infer that although Dwan may be playing high stakes in some games (Macau) he may be unable to play in others (Online vs Jungle) because his backers are only willing to give him money for games in which they think he has an edge (Macau).
He might be in makeup and completely unable to play outside the stake
It is therefore possible Dwan does not have the money to play 30k or whatever more hands of 200/400 online and pay out 1.5 million upon a potential loss.
If he doesn't have the money he cannot play simple as that. No matter what people think or what Jungleman says nothing can change that (outside of Dwan acquiring the money to play). If this is the case I would not call his behavior scummy because his lack of play is not intentional. It is due to his lack of funds which could have potentially been cause by his extensive and unexpected losses in the early hands of the challenge itself.
So Scummy no: unfortunate, irresponsible, shortsighted .... probably.
On September 24 2014 10:03 whamm! wrote:
I dunno about Dan's credibility tbh. He's been linked to scummy behavior in the past and Dwan has not. Also Dwan historically is not really the type to just write off some debt just because he can, Im not sure about all this but I think Dwan will have some explanation - its just weird he is not talking but we here him slaying shit in macau for fuckloads of money.
That whole portugese prodigy thing along with living with wcgrider and multiaccounting bullshit plus all these angleshooting youtube videos is really making Dan seem like a weird dude capable of shit
It makes perfect sense he's not "talking". Everything he says Jungleman has used and will continue use to attack Dwan's image and credibility publicly using interviews like this until Dwan tells him he's going to play. There's no reason for them to talk, the terms are set and being automatically paid as jungle currently owes Dwan. So, expect not to hear from Dwan until they settle or until it happens.
if poker is dangerous to them i would rank sports betting as a Kodiak grizzly bear who smells blood after you just threw a javelin into his cub - RaiNKhAN
Situations like these piss me off, because in this community people who welch on bets / owe money for too long get far too much leeway. If he's broke the very least he can do is admit it, say that paying up is his current priority.
Dwan isn't welching and not officially. Don't listen to Jungleman, he's made an agreement and is getting paid while the challenge is on hold. Dwan doesn't have to admit anything or say "paying up" is his priority. He doesn't have anything to pay up until they decide to settle the challenge rather than play it out someday. He's already paying temporarily per the agreement they made... Jungle either wants to finish the challenge or to attack Dwan's reputation as much as possible. Would you talk/text regularly with a guy like that?
if poker is dangerous to them i would rank sports betting as a Kodiak grizzly bear who smells blood after you just threw a javelin into his cub - RaiNKhAN
Even if Dwan comes out with a statement that he wont play nor pay, I'd still consider Cates the bigger douchebag. You guys underestimate the shit he s done past years. Plus that 30k hands HU bet was done in completely different times for poker. Dwan can just come out and say some shit like "I wont play Cates because i have doubts he s not playing alone vs me" and 90% of people would believe him, the lengths Cates has gone to scam people are so long he doesn't deserve a drop of respect.
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Santafairy Korea (South). Sep 24 2014 13:43. Posts 2227
it seems like dwan has more fans despite, or perhaps because of, the fact that jungleman is the only one making statements
It seems to be not very profitable in the long run to play those kind of hands. - Gus Hansen
On September 24 2014 11:17 ggplz wrote:
Dwan isn't welching and not officially. Don't listen to Jungleman, he's made an agreement and is getting paid while the challenge is on hold. Dwan doesn't have to admit anything or say "paying up" is his priority. He doesn't have anything to pay up until they decide to settle the challenge rather than play it out someday. He's already paying temporarily per the agreement they made... Jungle either wants to finish the challenge or to attack Dwan's reputation as much as possible. Would you talk/text regularly with a guy like that?
but he's not getting paid while the challenge is on hold, tom agreed to do that but he's welching on that agreement now too.
how long do you think dan should have to wait while tom refuses to answer his phone calls and texts before he can claim tom is welching on the bet? 2020?
if he doesn't have the money then he should attempt to work out some kind of payment plan or show some kind of sign of good faith. dan has said many times that he's willing to settle if tom would show any kind of willingness. and not that i think tom is obligated to make any kind of public statement about his situation, but the fact that he hasn't speaks volumes, he's gone on 2+2 to publicly clarify much smaller issues in the past.
As for the finances involved, Dan told me that apart from the ‘challenge’ itself, he currently owes Dwan money, though that debt is currently being eaten away by the penalties Dwan is being charged as part of the challenge. Because of this arrangement, money isn’t currently passing between the two players.
Jungleman agreed to what he agreed to. No use crying to flushdraw.net or anywhere else because he has to simply wait and collect $ in the interim.
There's no payment plan to be made... Dwan's position is that he intends to play, eventually. If he changes his mind then officially he'll come out and settle with Jungle.. until then payments are being made as they both already agreed.
Jungle publicly states he has an edge. Dwan says nothing. Whether or not Jungle is trying to convince Dwan to settle is something we should be thinking about. Dwan's refusal to settle could just as easily be that he intends to crush Jungleman when he has the means to (if he's broke). I think both are highly capable and closely matched players who may or may not have an edge on eachother but it's likely they both believe they have an edge on each other.
if poker is dangerous to them i would rank sports betting as a Kodiak grizzly bear who smells blood after you just threw a javelin into his cub - RaiNKhAN
re: the penalties, i was going based off what was on pokerlistings
Dwan has incurred hundreds of thousands of dollars in penalties, of which he's paid none, and according to Jungleman if things don't change soon he'll be forced to reveal aspects of Tom's personal situation he'd prefer to keep private. [...]
Dwan was to pay Cates $40,000 for every two months that went by with no durrrr Challenge activity. Additionally, $10,000 was to be added to the penalty every two months. They didn't count the two months last summer during the World Series of Poker.
That number is now at $300,000 and according to Cates, Dwan hasn't paid him a cent.
so apparently that part is a bit misleading, assuming the other interview is correct.
anyway, if tom's intention is to finish the challenge, what do you think is a reasonable timeframe? do you think he should be allowed to stall indefinitely? the only reason dan would want tom to settle is because he thinks he's a deadbeat and he won't be able to get anymore out of him, of course jungleman would prefer to finish the challenge (at a rate of more than 17 hands per year).
and of course jungle has an edge lol...i mean i feel weird saying this because i don't think my opinion on the top HUNL players in the world deserves any particular merit, but every highstakes player who's given their opinion on the matter always ranks jungle at least top 5 (at worst) and doesn't rank durrr in the top 10, or top 20, or anywhere near, maybe tom is just metagaming them all though.
Exactly. Now that you know that, how does Jungle look for threatening to spread information presumably to damage Dwan's public image given that Dwan is actually complying with their holdover agreement? Jungle is a real class act and not honourable or understanding in the slightest otherwise he'd keep that to himself. If he knows Dwan isn't doing very well atm then even more so, right? I wonder why Dwan doesn't return Jungle's phone calls/texts...
if poker is dangerous to them i would rank sports betting as a Kodiak grizzly bear who smells blood after you just threw a javelin into his cub - RaiNKhAN
As for the finances involved, Dan told me that apart from the ‘challenge’ itself, he currently owes Dwan money, though that debt is currently being eaten away by the penalties Dwan is being charged as part of the challenge. Because of this arrangement, money isn’t currently passing between the two players.
Jungleman agreed to what he agreed to. No use crying to flushdraw.net or anywhere else because he has to simply wait and collect $ in the interim.
There's no payment plan to be made... Dwan's position is that he intends to play, eventually. If he changes his mind then officially he'll come out and settle with Jungle.. until then payments are being made as they both already agreed.
Jungle publicly states he has an edge. Dwan says nothing. Whether or not Jungle is trying to convince Dwan to settle is something we should be thinking about. Dwan's refusal to settle could just as easily be that he intends to crush Jungleman when he has the means to (if he's broke). I think both are highly capable and closely matched players who may or may not have an edge on eachother but it's likely they both believe they have an edge on each other.
Tom "durrrr" Dwan vs Daniel "jungleman12" Cates
Leader: Daniel "jungleman12" Cates
Up by: $1,251,059.00
Total Hands Played: 19,335
Total Hands Remaining: 30,665
Challenge Started: August 2010
4 years is plenty to play 50k hands. Originally I thought these things would take just a few months. Even If they played a ~ 1k hands a month they would be done by now. If Dwan has lost a large % of his net worth over the last few years, he's probably in a very shitty (tilty) mental phase, and probably does not have edge vs jungle, who plays like a well oiled machine.
I think there was a certain spirit when the challenge was issued, that he would play anyone at anytime. When dawn was crushing Antonius, Antonius stopped playing dwan is doing the same to jungeman now, difference being his penalty is way larger.
Seems to be a lot of these guys are "badasse's / heroes / ballers" when times are good but scumbags / dodgers when times get tough
Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light not our darkness that most frightens us and as we let our own lights shine we unconsciously give other people permision to do the same
On September 24 2014 14:45 ggplz wrote:
Exactly. Now that you know that, how does Jungle look for threatening to spread information presumably to damage Dwan's public image given that Dwan is actually complying with their holdover agreement? Jungle is a real class act and not honourable or understanding in the slightest otherwise he'd keep that to himself. If he knows Dwan isn't doing very well atm then even more so, right? I wonder why Dwan doesn't return Jungle's phone calls/texts...
i think he's been incredibly patient with tom, it's been 4 years ffs (maybe not patient out of the goodness of his heart, but probably because he doesn't have any better options). fwiw the article you linked doesn't exactly imply that dwan is complying willingly. it doesn't say anything about him agreeing to jungle withholding the money from the limit holdem propbet match and deducting the penalty payments, it just says that's what jungle has decided to do.
how long exactly is jungle supposed to keep all of this to himself? given how long this has been going on, it seems like he did just that for a long time, probably due to his own naivete believing tom would be honorable. you have it backwards, jungle is outing durr's scummy behavior because he won't even make a reasonable effort to communicate with him, durr isn't refusing to communicate with him because of jungle outing him.
Bottom line is, a bet is a bet, gamblers do not rely on anything but their honesty and integrity.
I remember when this started, a chat between Dwan and Jungleman was posted somewhere, where Dwan asked jungleman to escrow the 500k to Ivey which he gladly did. But Dwan never escrowed anything because he probably felt like he was gonna win for sure.
Like I said a bet is a bet, your word becomes your bond, and when a situation like this goes public then your integrity and honesty gets tarnished, no one will want to take action with or against you. And if gambling is how you make a living then its pretty much gg.
longple: ur missing the point! this is an attempt to get away from the bumhuntmentality!
That's pretty speculative and Jungle has been very open about this for a long time and not silent for 4 years like you claim. The communication between them has to be more complex than we're led to believe...
He will wait as long as Dwan wants him to wait. Really, it should be resolved somehow either through settling or playing it out but they both agreed on this limbo state and that's the end of it for now. The purpose of the agreement they made to payout every few months of missed play by Dwan is that Jungleman is happier with the delay. Apparently, he's not. Not Dwan's problem as long as Jungleman keeps receiving money by deducting his debt to Dwan or through future payments.
Just want to point out that when FTP/PS shutdown for US players on April 15 2011 that pretty much killed online play for people inside US unless they moved out and set up some form of residence and a bank account. Not sure when Dwan did that. Also, he was a red pro right? Pretty sure they lost everything they had on FTP. The period between then and whenever Tom re-established his acc can't really be counted.
Was this ever clarified btw? Not sure what big issue he was talking about in this interview. Dated 7 Feb 2014.
if poker is dangerous to them i would rank sports betting as a Kodiak grizzly bear who smells blood after you just threw a javelin into his cub - RaiNKhAN
Last edit: 24/09/2014 18:35
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chris United States. Sep 24 2014 19:03. Posts 5503
didnt dwan help bail out those chinese businessmen/triad members?
The fact that some of you are defending Dwan here scares the shit out of me, im always getting an escrow regardless of who I am dealing with apparently people have a broken moral compass.
If Dwan is broke (a broke man sitting with millions on Macau tables) then he forefits the fucking challenge, accept the loss and discusses a payment deal with Jungleman period.
I dont care if Jungle is an egotistical asshole, and what he has done, in this particular case he is absolutely right and he has been very patient, if I were him I would have blasted Dwan publicly waaaay before and I would be already seeking violent ways to collect my money
^^ I too am surprised with all the people defending dawn, for me this isn't even close Cates should just take legal action, dawn seems to be a huge asshole about the whole thing. I think there was a similar case w/ Jamie gold about WSOP ME when he owned his buddy half and refused to pay on a non official agreement between the two. He ended up losing. This dawn bet has way more evidence
Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light not our darkness that most frightens us and as we let our own lights shine we unconsciously give other people permision to do the same
On September 24 2014 20:37 Baalim wrote:
The fact that some of you are defending Dwan here scares the shit out of me, im always getting an escrow regardless of who I am dealing with apparently people have a broken moral compass.
If Dwan is broke (a broke man sitting with millions on Macau tables) then he forefits the fucking challenge, accept the loss and discusses a payment deal with Jungleman period.
I dont care if Jungle is an egotistical asshole, and what he has done, in this particular case he is absolutely right and he has been very patient, if I were him I would have blasted Dwan publicly waaaay before and I would be already seeking violent ways to collect my money
You have no idea what you are talking about. Dwan has every right not to pay because Jungle is a scammer
On September 24 2014 20:37 Baalim wrote:
The fact that some of you are defending Dwan here scares the shit out of me, im always getting an escrow regardless of who I am dealing with apparently people have a broken moral compass.
If Dwan is broke (a broke man sitting with millions on Macau tables) then he forefits the fucking challenge, accept the loss and discusses a payment deal with Jungleman period.
I dont care if Jungle is an egotistical asshole, and what he has done, in this particular case he is absolutely right and he has been very patient, if I were him I would have blasted Dwan publicly waaaay before and I would be already seeking violent ways to collect my money
You have no idea what you are talking about. Dwan has every right not to pay because Jungle is a scammer
On September 24 2014 22:13 TalentedTom wrote:
^^ I too am surprised with all the people defending dawn, for me this isn't even close Cates should just take legal action, dawn seems to be a huge asshole about the whole thing. I think there was a similar case w/ Jamie gold about WSOP ME when he owned his buddy half and refused to pay on a non official agreement between the two. He ended up losing. This dawn bet has way more evidence
On September 24 2014 22:13 TalentedTom wrote:
^^ I too am surprised with all the people defending dawn, for me this isn't even close Cates should just take legal action, dawn seems to be a huge asshole about the whole thing. I think there was a similar case w/ Jamie gold about WSOP ME when he owned his buddy half and refused to pay on a non official agreement between the two. He ended up losing. This dawn bet has way more evidence
dat dawn though. :D
Anyways two cases are not comparable from a legal point of view, pretty sure Jamie Gold's friend had invested half of the buy in, that's an investment deal.
"Verbal " contracts do exist, but I really doubt such case can be won especially for the given amount of money and the different difficulties that occurred between the time the bet was made and now, online poker was shut down ( oh yeah considering they were basically playing illegally at the time of the bet I highly doubt he ll get shit ), Cates was involved in multiple scamming scenarios etc.etc.... Yeah Cates has every right to ask for that money too, I'm defending Dwan only because Cates is a scumbag and doesn't deserve a penny, if it were anyone else i'd be on the Dwan hate train, but then again the circumstances would be quite different
Not sure if red pros lost their money though, I think they didnt, didnt Daut get his money? I only think they deducted salaries
Last edit: 25/09/2014 11:11
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ReSpOnSe United States. Sep 25 2014 13:19. Posts 405
On September 25 2014 12:07 RaSZi wrote:
Cates 100% in the right. The part about good friends of Durrr saying he lost his mind is also true.
give us more info on that
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milkman United States. Sep 25 2014 16:06. Posts 5719
i talked with Dwan back in 2010 ( not about this ) and i was like "hi" and he was like "hi" ... hes clearly not insane.
Its hard to make a easy buck legally, its impossible to make a easy buck morally.
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chris United States. Sep 25 2014 17:52. Posts 5503
is dwan the new stu ungar or something with teh insanity (im guessing cocaine)?
I liked watching Dwan and I think it is a shame the challenge came to this. Also seems like its nearly impossible to be at the top of the world in poker for long, which makes ivey/negreanu etc even more amazing.
taylor caby top dawg and gone, hallinggoll, rekrul, isildurr, aba, dwan, etc. all the guys who were the 'best' for a short period
Good luck getting it settled via lawsuit lol. Like goose said, is the bet even legal? If it is, was there ever a clear set out list of terms detailing, for example, an end by date, or what would happen in this exact situation? (not considering FTP issues, I mean, if one is clearly losing the bet and dodging so the bet isn't technically over)
I think everyone can agree that given the terms they laid out, 50k hands hu, whoever wins wins a 3:1 sidebet, the match isnt over. Theres no outlined terms setting out what happens so even if you take it to court, what can the judge do? And which level of judge? This doesnt seem very small claims court. Jungleman is pretty much doing the only thing he can do, but publicly speaking about his displeasure without angrying or shaming durrrr.
As some of you have pointed out, apparently theres some other bet going on where cates owes durr money? Its not as clear cut as it may seem.
Baal reckons people who defend Dwan (I'd prefer to say to look at it with a degree of balance) have a broken moral compass. Yet in the same post he then says he would look to violently attack Dwan to get "his" money back at this point. Even though, it's not actually "his" money nor is Dwan violating anything... he's just not playing you right now and that angers you. That is within their terms though.
From what I read, the terms of the bet don't stipulate a timeline for completion which means they could go on forever, "legally". Dwan and Jungleman have been incredibly flakey with the details of this bet so goodluck proving he's in violation of anything or that there's anything to violate. If Jungleman was to go with legal action though it would force Dwan to either defend against it legally (and probably win) or for Dwan to pay up some money, probably mostly to maintain a trustworthy/honourable image more than any other reason (see penalty, honourable). I don't think Jungle wants to try that because he knows it won't go well for him. The penalty arrangement he's made is to try to keep with the spirit of the bet and to make things right while they don't play. Nothing enforces it though, only honour. Nobody really wants to talk about their limbo penalty agreement because that would show you that Dwan is complying with their terms and that Jungleman is just putting media pressure on Dwan. Again, why would Dwan respond to that? There's no option but to ignore it until you intend to play or settle.
if poker is dangerous to them i would rank sports betting as a Kodiak grizzly bear who smells blood after you just threw a javelin into his cub - RaiNKhAN
On September 25 2014 21:34 ggplz wrote:
From what I read, the terms of the bet don't stipulate a timeline for completion which means they could go on forever, "legally". Dwan and Jungleman have been incredibly flakey with the details of this bet so goodluck proving he's in violation of anything or that there's anything to violate. If Jungleman was to go with legal action though it would force Dwan to either defend against it legally (and probably win) or for Dwan to pay up some money, probably mostly to maintain a trustworthy/honourable image more than any other reason (see penalty, honourable). I don't think Jungle wants to try that because he knows it won't go well for him. The penalty arrangement he's made is to try to keep with the spirit of the bet and to make things right while they don't play. Nothing enforces it though, only honour. Nobody really wants to talk about their limbo penalty agreement because that would show you that Dwan is complying with their terms and that Jungleman is just putting media pressure on Dwan. Again, why would Dwan respond to that? There's no option but to ignore it until you intend to play or settle.
if by both being flaky you mean jungle consistently pushing to continue the challenge or settle (even stating he'd be willing to give durr a discount on a settlement), and durr consistently dodging any form of communication, then yeah.
i mean if you're just saying that there is no legal way for jungle to collect the money based on a technicality, then sure, whatever. the whole point of everyone who's saying durr is in the wrong is that his stalling violates the spirit of the bet and any reasonable sense of dignity.
you keep saying the penalty situation shows that durr is complying, has it actually been confirmed that it was a mutual agreement? or just jungle taking control over the issue by choosing to deduct it from the propbet balance? because if durr is not willingly cooperating it obviously is not a credit to his "honor". i suppose we will find out soon enough once the penalties start eclipsing the 400k bet.
Truck-Crash Life
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chris United States. Sep 25 2014 23:33. Posts 5503
ggplz, baal is mexican....don't you know about our borderlands and the cartel?
if poker is dangerous to them i would rank sports betting as a Kodiak grizzly bear who smells blood after you just threw a javelin into his cub - RaiNKhAN
i guess i didn't phrase that part very well in my previous post, i realize dwan agreed to pay a penalty, but i'm unsure if he willingly agreed to have jungle deduct it from the propbet.
On September 25 2014 21:34 ggplz wrote:
Baal reckons people who defend Dwan (I'd prefer to say to look at it with a degree of balance) have a broken moral compass. Yet in the same post he then says he would look to violently attack Dwan to get "his" money back at this point. Even though, it's not actually "his" money nor is Dwan violating anything... he's just not playing you right now and that angers you. That is within their terms though.
From what I read, the terms of the bet don't stipulate a timeline for completion which means they could go on forever, "legally". Dwan and Jungleman have been incredibly flakey with the details of this bet so goodluck proving he's in violation of anything or that there's anything to violate. If Jungleman was to go with legal action though it would force Dwan to either defend against it legally (and probably win) or for Dwan to pay up some money, probably mostly to maintain a trustworthy/honourable image more than any other reason (see penalty, honourable). I don't think Jungle wants to try that because he knows it won't go well for him. The penalty arrangement he's made is to try to keep with the spirit of the bet and to make things right while they don't play. Nothing enforces it though, only honour. Nobody really wants to talk about their limbo penalty agreement because that would show you that Dwan is complying with their terms and that Jungleman is just putting media pressure on Dwan. Again, why would Dwan respond to that? There's no option but to ignore it until you intend to play or settle.
oh riiiight, so they can play 49,999 hands and if you are down, you just dont play the last hand ever... and that seems moral and reasonable to you, are you retarded?
There is absolutely nothing wrong to use force to reclaim what is rightfully yours, to use the legal system is just another often unjust form of indirect violence, I firmly believe in doing justice by my own hand.
Also read again, Dwan agreed to the penalties but he isnt paying them
On September 25 2014 22:33 chris wrote:
ggplz, baal is mexican....don't you know about our borderlands and the cartel?
jk baal
You have undertaken to cheat me. I won't sue you, for the law is too slow. I'll ruin you. - Cornelius Vanderbilt
Nobody can give you equality or justice or anything. If you're a man, you take it. - Malcolm X
A few years ago I bough some performance suspension for my rally car (about 2k) He never gave it to me, he stopped answering my calls and my visits, so after a couple of months I went to his shop he obviously "wasnt there" so I told his mechanics that next time I was coming back with some "friends", and that If he was smart he should give me my money back right away, the very next day he gave me my stuff.
I would have sent him to the hospital with a smirk in my face every week till he paid
Ex-PokerStars Team Pro Online
1
RaiNKhAN United States. Sep 26 2014 01:59. Posts 4080
^ to add on to all of whatever is going on in this thread ill say this
the general consensus about poker players being pussies has grown substantially since black friday. until people start doing something about their sob stories of getting ripped off it will continue to happen. would take like a few dozen to hundred stories of ppl getting their asses kicked/killed for people to stop scamming/dodging debts
The biggest Rockets, Sixers, and Grizzlies fan you will ever meet!
On September 25 2014 21:34 ggplz wrote:
Baal reckons people who defend Dwan (I'd prefer to say to look at it with a degree of balance) have a broken moral compass. Yet in the same post he then says he would look to violently attack Dwan to get "his" money back at this point. Even though, it's not actually "his" money nor is Dwan violating anything... he's just not playing you right now and that angers you. That is within their terms though.
From what I read, the terms of the bet don't stipulate a timeline for completion which means they could go on forever, "legally". Dwan and Jungleman have been incredibly flakey with the details of this bet so goodluck proving he's in violation of anything or that there's anything to violate. If Jungleman was to go with legal action though it would force Dwan to either defend against it legally (and probably win) or for Dwan to pay up some money, probably mostly to maintain a trustworthy/honourable image more than any other reason (see penalty, honourable). I don't think Jungle wants to try that because he knows it won't go well for him. The penalty arrangement he's made is to try to keep with the spirit of the bet and to make things right while they don't play. Nothing enforces it though, only honour. Nobody really wants to talk about their limbo penalty agreement because that would show you that Dwan is complying with their terms and that Jungleman is just putting media pressure on Dwan. Again, why would Dwan respond to that? There's no option but to ignore it until you intend to play or settle.
oh riiiight, so they can play 49,999 hands and if you are down, you just dont play the last hand ever... and that seems moral and reasonable to you, are you retarded?
There is absolutely nothing wrong to use force to reclaim what is rightfully yours, to use the legal system is just another often unjust form of indirect violence, I firmly believe in doing justice by my own hand.
Also read again, Dwan agreed to the penalties but he isnt paying them
Why are you jumping to that extreme example? They are 40% through the bet and durrrr is down only 30 buyins. Pretty sure there's no reasonable way someone can recover in 1 hand (the other guy would just fold his blind). Also, the judges would make a decision on it if someone stalled with 1 hand left although I don't think either player ever would.
I'm not going to debate the use of force. The point is that it's not rightfully yours.
Read from where? Because flushdraw.net and pokerlistings give conflicting information.
pokerlistings says:
That number is now at $300,000 and according to Cates, Dwan hasn't paid him a cent.
flushdraw says:
As for the finances involved, Dan told me that apart from the ‘challenge’ itself, he currently owes Dwan money, though that debt is currently being eaten away by the penalties Dwan is being charged as part of the challenge. Because of this arrangement, money isn’t currently passing between the two players.
So pick whichever you believe. I'll go with Jungle telling a half truth on pokerlistings and the whole truth on flushdraw. Jungle has no arguement until Dwan fails to pay him.
if poker is dangerous to them i would rank sports betting as a Kodiak grizzly bear who smells blood after you just threw a javelin into his cub - RaiNKhAN
Last edit: 26/09/2014 09:57
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goose58 United States. Sep 27 2014 22:14. Posts 871
Wow baal acting like a typical mexican lol.
Try doing your tough guy act in the USA and you will be getting rammed in the anus asap doing 20 to life, LOL.
USA isn't mexico, get that straight.
And missing 1 hand in a 50k hand challenge is "immoral", riiiiiight
Well technically ggplz is right. If there's no actual agreement on when the challenge must be finished by or when payment must be made he really doesn't have much legal recourse.
But it's still pretty douchey of Dwan so the moral argument has a lot of legs.
He's not right there is also something like the spirit of the agreement. Not just ethically but also in law. You can't just put this on hold indefinitely it's absolutely outside the realm of reasonability.
You could argue that jungleman is forfeiting that with their secondary agreement (20k + x fees every 2 month period, increasing by 10k every period) otherwise why even make that agreement in the first place? There's a spirit to that agreement too. It's obviously to compensate Jungleman for that very reason and to force Dwan to play, eventually. Dwan is gonna end up being hit by some huge fees as time goes on. I think Jungleman is bringing this up again because he's worried Dwan may not be able to pay anything in the future and/or might refuse to pay after Jungleman's debt is paid off.
if poker is dangerous to them i would rank sports betting as a Kodiak grizzly bear who smells blood after you just threw a javelin into his cub - RaiNKhAN
Recently Ted Forrest revealed that Mike Matusow has paid him just $70,000 out of a $1,800,000 debt and that caused a huge discussion in the poker world: should people who try to dodge their debts be outed in public? It looks like the discussion struck few players and we are to witness more issues brought to public attention, this time between two of the top young poker geniuses: Daniel "jungleman12" Cates and Tom "durrrr" Dwan. 
Canada. Sep 24 2014 10:00. Posts 20070
