Another drama over unpaid debt: Daniel "Jungleman12" Cates calls out Tom "durrrr" Dwan - Page 3

On September 24 2014 20:37 Baalim wrote: The fact that some of you are defending Dwan here scares the shit out of me, im always getting an escrow regardless of who I am dealing with apparently people have a broken moral compass. If Dwan is broke (a broke man sitting with millions on Macau tables) then he forefits the fucking challenge, accept the loss and discusses a payment deal with Jungleman period. I dont care if Jungle is an egotistical asshole, and what he has done, in this particular case he is absolutely right and he has been very patient, if I were him I would have blasted Dwan publicly waaaay before and I would be already seeking violent ways to collect my money

You have no idea what you are talking about. Dwan has every right not to pay because Jungle is a scammer

On September 25 2014 00:03 awesomeguy wrote: Show nested quote + On September 24 2014 20:37 Baalim wrote: The fact that some of you are defending Dwan here scares the shit out of me, im always getting an escrow regardless of who I am dealing with apparently people have a broken moral compass. If Dwan is broke (a broke man sitting with millions on Macau tables) then he forefits the fucking challenge, accept the loss and discusses a payment deal with Jungleman period. I dont care if Jungle is an egotistical asshole, and what he has done, in this particular case he is absolutely right and he has been very patient, if I were him I would have blasted Dwan publicly waaaay before and I would be already seeking violent ways to collect my money You have no idea what you are talking about. Dwan has every right not to pay because Jungle is a scammer

lol

On September 24 2014 22:13 TalentedTom wrote: ^^ I too am surprised with all the people defending dawn, for me this isn't even close Cates should just take legal action, dawn seems to be a huge asshole about the whole thing. I think there was a similar case w/ Jamie gold about WSOP ME when he owned his buddy half and refused to pay on a non official agreement between the two. He ended up losing. This dawn bet has way more evidence

Agreed Jungle should have sued long ago

On September 24 2014 22:13 TalentedTom wrote: ^^ I too am surprised with all the people defending dawn, for me this isn't even close Cates should just take legal action, dawn seems to be a huge asshole about the whole thing. I think there was a similar case w/ Jamie gold about WSOP ME when he owned his buddy half and refused to pay on a non official agreement between the two. He ended up losing. This dawn bet has way more evidence

dat dawn though. :D

Anyways two cases are not comparable from a legal point of view, pretty sure Jamie Gold's friend had invested half of the buy in, that's an investment deal.
"Verbal " contracts do exist, but I really doubt such case can be won especially for the given amount of money and the different difficulties that occurred between the time the bet was made and now, online poker was shut down ( oh yeah considering they were basically playing illegally at the time of the bet I highly doubt he ll get shit ), Cates was involved in multiple scamming scenarios etc.etc.... Yeah Cates has every right to ask for that money too, I'm defending Dwan only because Cates is a scumbag and doesn't deserve a penny, if it were anyone else i'd be on the Dwan hate train, but then again the circumstances would be quite different

Not sure if red pros lost their money though, I think they didnt, didnt Daut get his money? I only think they deducted salaries

This is depressing.

On September 25 2014 12:07 RaSZi wrote: Cates 100% in the right. The part about good friends of Durrr saying he lost his mind is also true.

give us more info on that

i talked with Dwan back in 2010 ( not about this ) and i was like "hi" and he was like "hi" ... hes clearly not insane.

is dwan the new stu ungar or something with teh insanity (im guessing cocaine)?

I liked watching Dwan and I think it is a shame the challenge came to this. Also seems like its nearly impossible to be at the top of the world in poker for long, which makes ivey/negreanu etc even more amazing.

taylor caby top dawg and gone, hallinggoll, rekrul, isildurr, aba, dwan, etc. all the guys who were the 'best' for a short period

On September 25 2014 16:52 chris wrote: which makes ivey/negreanu etc even more amazing.

I cant imagine being staked by chinese guys while in china is a very stress free life

Obviously jungle is right..

My guess is that dwan lost all his money on FTP and is squeezed for money, so he's gonna dick cates around as long as possible.

There's a big legal hurdle that some of you think is a slam dunk but it's not. Would this bet hold up in court? Was the bet even legal?

Would dwan pay it even if cates was awarded the judgement?

Good luck getting it settled via lawsuit lol. Like goose said, is the bet even legal? If it is, was there ever a clear set out list of terms detailing, for example, an end by date, or what would happen in this exact situation? (not considering FTP issues, I mean, if one is clearly losing the bet and dodging so the bet isn't technically over)

I think everyone can agree that given the terms they laid out, 50k hands hu, whoever wins wins a 3:1 sidebet, the match isnt over. Theres no outlined terms setting out what happens so even if you take it to court, what can the judge do? And which level of judge? This doesnt seem very small claims court. Jungleman is pretty much doing the only thing he can do, but publicly speaking about his displeasure without angrying or shaming durrrr.

As some of you have pointed out, apparently theres some other bet going on where cates owes durr money? Its not as clear cut as it may seem.

Baal reckons people who defend Dwan (I'd prefer to say to look at it with a degree of balance) have a broken moral compass. Yet in the same post he then says he would look to violently attack Dwan to get "his" money back at this point. Even though, it's not actually "his" money nor is Dwan violating anything... he's just not playing you right now and that angers you. That is within their terms though.

From what I read, the terms of the bet don't stipulate a timeline for completion which means they could go on forever, "legally". Dwan and Jungleman have been incredibly flakey with the details of this bet so goodluck proving he's in violation of anything or that there's anything to violate. If Jungleman was to go with legal action though it would force Dwan to either defend against it legally (and probably win) or for Dwan to pay up some money, probably mostly to maintain a trustworthy/honourable image more than any other reason (see penalty, honourable). I don't think Jungle wants to try that because he knows it won't go well for him. The penalty arrangement he's made is to try to keep with the spirit of the bet and to make things right while they don't play. Nothing enforces it though, only honour. Nobody really wants to talk about their limbo penalty agreement because that would show you that Dwan is complying with their terms and that Jungleman is just putting media pressure on Dwan. Again, why would Dwan respond to that? There's no option but to ignore it until you intend to play or settle.

On September 25 2014 21:34 ggplz wrote: From what I read, the terms of the bet don't stipulate a timeline for completion which means they could go on forever, "legally". Dwan and Jungleman have been incredibly flakey with the details of this bet so goodluck proving he's in violation of anything or that there's anything to violate. If Jungleman was to go with legal action though it would force Dwan to either defend against it legally (and probably win) or for Dwan to pay up some money, probably mostly to maintain a trustworthy/honourable image more than any other reason (see penalty, honourable). I don't think Jungle wants to try that because he knows it won't go well for him. The penalty arrangement he's made is to try to keep with the spirit of the bet and to make things right while they don't play. Nothing enforces it though, only honour. Nobody really wants to talk about their limbo penalty agreement because that would show you that Dwan is complying with their terms and that Jungleman is just putting media pressure on Dwan. Again, why would Dwan respond to that? There's no option but to ignore it until you intend to play or settle.

if by both being flaky you mean jungle consistently pushing to continue the challenge or settle (even stating he'd be willing to give durr a discount on a settlement), and durr consistently dodging any form of communication, then yeah.

i mean if you're just saying that there is no legal way for jungle to collect the money based on a technicality, then sure, whatever. the whole point of everyone who's saying durr is in the wrong is that his stalling violates the spirit of the bet and any reasonable sense of dignity.

you keep saying the penalty situation shows that durr is complying, has it actually been confirmed that it was a mutual agreement? or just jungle taking control over the issue by choosing to deduct it from the propbet balance? because if durr is not willingly cooperating it obviously is not a credit to his "honor". i suppose we will find out soon enough once the penalties start eclipsing the 400k bet.

ggplz, baal is mexican....don't you know about our borderlands and the cartel?

jk baal

Yeah, it is and presumably Jungle deducting from his debt to Dwan is something Dwan agreed to. It's easier, i guess?

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showpost.php?p=40503647&postcount=112

i guess i didn't phrase that part very well in my previous post, i realize dwan agreed to pay a penalty, but i'm unsure if he willingly agreed to have jungle deduct it from the propbet.

On September 25 2014 21:34 ggplz wrote: Baal reckons people who defend Dwan (I'd prefer to say to look at it with a degree of balance) have a broken moral compass. Yet in the same post he then says he would look to violently attack Dwan to get "his" money back at this point. Even though, it's not actually "his" money nor is Dwan violating anything... he's just not playing you right now and that angers you. That is within their terms though. From what I read, the terms of the bet don't stipulate a timeline for completion which means they could go on forever, "legally". Dwan and Jungleman have been incredibly flakey with the details of this bet so goodluck proving he's in violation of anything or that there's anything to violate. If Jungleman was to go with legal action though it would force Dwan to either defend against it legally (and probably win) or for Dwan to pay up some money, probably mostly to maintain a trustworthy/honourable image more than any other reason (see penalty, honourable). I don't think Jungle wants to try that because he knows it won't go well for him. The penalty arrangement he's made is to try to keep with the spirit of the bet and to make things right while they don't play. Nothing enforces it though, only honour. Nobody really wants to talk about their limbo penalty agreement because that would show you that Dwan is complying with their terms and that Jungleman is just putting media pressure on Dwan. Again, why would Dwan respond to that? There's no option but to ignore it until you intend to play or settle.

oh riiiight, so they can play 49,999 hands and if you are down, you just dont play the last hand ever... and that seems moral and reasonable to you, are you retarded?


There is absolutely nothing wrong to use force to reclaim what is rightfully yours, to use the legal system is just another often unjust form of indirect violence, I firmly believe in doing justice by my own hand.

Also read again, Dwan agreed to the penalties but he isnt paying them

On September 25 2014 22:33 chris wrote: ggplz, baal is mexican....don't you know about our borderlands and the cartel? jk baal

You have undertaken to cheat me. I won't sue you, for the law is too slow. I'll ruin you. - Cornelius Vanderbilt

Nobody can give you equality or justice or anything. If you're a man, you take it. - Malcolm X

A few years ago I bough some performance suspension for my rally car (about 2k) He never gave it to me, he stopped answering my calls and my visits, so after a couple of months I went to his shop he obviously "wasnt there" so I told his mechanics that next time I was coming back with some "friends", and that If he was smart he should give me my money back right away, the very next day he gave me my stuff.

I would have sent him to the hospital with a smirk in my face every week till he paid

^ to add on to all of whatever is going on in this thread ill say this

the general consensus about poker players being pussies has grown substantially since black friday. until people start doing something about their sob stories of getting ripped off it will continue to happen. would take like a few dozen to hundred stories of ppl getting their asses kicked/killed for people to stop scamming/dodging debts