pretty silly spot, I was sort of on autopilot and caught off guard by this, we have a somewhat loose dynamic and wide ranges.. thoughts?

basically if he has a hand like QQ would he turn it into a bluff on the river? personally I think thats bad but I know ppl love doing that shit so I dunno -.-

Pretty interesting hand tbh... I often don't know what is the correct play here.
I wouldn't mind making a thread about it, cause there are a lot of things that could be discussed.

I have another question, why the smallish bet on the flop ? to induce bluffs ?
How often you think he folds the flop after half-bet pot being oop ? What's he's range here?

I'm a fish but I'd say he could have more like mid pairs, cause you could be v-betting AJ or sth like that, and calling wouldn't be profitable then.
By the river you really don't rep much...

call out of confusion/wtf can he have?

silly spot indeed

top of our range but still dont beat any of his valuerange but i dunno if he would do this with A7 probably not and QQ blocks all ur KQ and TT blocks KT so that would be very silly if he is trying to get u off Kx (if he ever thinks u will ch turn w KT KQ or if he even thinks that far i dunno)

he never have a flush and he is repping only like J7s and JJ, guess he can have KK aswell being tricky on flop

i would fold and think its a pretty easy fold against alot of guys i mean i dont see ppl bluffing here often t_t but i never would expect any1 to ever fold a flush against myself takeing this line

but as u say people are pretty bad and he might just think "lol i cant have air checkcalling the flop all in" and dont think that ur pretty pulerised here to 7x+ (if u ever stabb flop with 7x i dunno since 7s rolls on river i guess not many 7x in ur range either, but if u randomly bet and checked turn not turning it into a bluff continueing on the turn u got 7x+ i guess, as i dont see u bet Jx here and i dont see why checking turn w KQ

it feels like u either have a flush or air and not many people can fold a flush in this spot when they get jammed on because they just think of potatoes when they have flushes, so its a terrible spot to turn QQ into a bluff imo vs 90% of 3/6 regs but idk really how it looks in reality

Yeah I folded but I dont like it, because he has to play EXACTLY as expected without deviation to make this correct but for all I know he thinks differently in this spot and I made a huge mistake folding... I dont think he would try to make me fold 7x+ but he might put Kx in my range or he might just be doing something weird with whatever -.-

yea its a hard spot because its not to easy knowing how ppl think, especially below 10/20 u cant assume the same about ppl when it comes to how u think they view on the handreading of the hand

but its kinda w/e spot imo dont think its a big mistake folding even if he has more random TT A3s and stuff turning it into a bluff then most people i still think he just autopilot folds most of the time, optimistic putting like every 3xs that he 3bet and TT / QQ in his bluffrange

but hard to say! he dont know u fold A4s so u dont have to feel exploited or anything for folding 100% on this specific 7s river

impressive fold imo still! wouldnt expect it from almost any1 except myself or some1 really good at handreading but im always thinking very specific when it comes to ranges and what hand i have/he has and sometimes i probably make to big folds underestimateing peoples stupidity,

like i dont see much difference in Kx and A4s here, and i dont think people should feel that its hard folding just because u have a flush

i think u should feel just as bad for folding KThh here imo and all of you reading this should release that mental block when it comes to relative handstrenght

its not hard makeing big folds if u narrow down his handrange, bluffcatcher as bluffcatcher thats why u all see me call sometimes with J high but folding absolute top of my range relatively fast in some spots

(people wont know u fold top of ur range and they will never know in spots like these)

he is just gonna assume that u folded KT or AJ or something

In a way having KT is better since it cuts down his KK combos from 3 to 1. The thing is regardless of being exploitable I just dont know how good it is to assume villian plays and thinks exactly like I do and wont do something unexpected, when value ranges are this narrow any small chance of him being weird has a huge impact on our EV.

it would totally suck if he is just a tard =P
but all the assumptions for the lay down are very reasonable

O_o 93% sure this guy is russian shortstacker

he has AA

I call pretty quickly without thinking too much about it

i mean how are you giving some random dude this much credit? always call unless there is a strong reason not to in this spot imo

On April 09 2012 09:49 n0rthf4ce wrote: I call pretty quickly without thinking too much about it

me2

On April 09 2012 09:49 n0rthf4ce wrote: I call pretty quickly without thinking too much about it

prob fold pre too. idk, you said you had a loose dynamic but i still would fold or 4bet pre most of the time

On April 09 2012 09:49 n0rthf4ce wrote: I call pretty quickly without thinking too much about it

first time I don't really agree with longple

thats because all of you think of potatoes too much, i wish u would have posted the hand holding KThh instead and played it the same too see if people wuold reply the same way

"but i has flush"

i would never fault any1 for calling here but its still a bluffcatcher and it comes down to if u think villain would try to bluff us off our obvious FLUSH or NOTHING imo with his obvious showdownvaluehand+++ coming to the river

but again this is only applicable faceing some1 who u know read hands well, vs some random guy its more w/e as i said because he is gonna missread heroes (solid TAG in this instance) range

what i mean, as evilsky origninally asked, the important thing here is not that we have a flush = call/fold

its we have a bluffcatcher insert flush or TP or what ever, how often is villain turning hands into a bluff?

if we dont know much about him, then call obviously we are getting good odds and its hard for him to have J7 or JJ / the very rare KK

against some1 we know is decent and read hands well and is not that spazzy i think its a pretty easy fold because YOU SHOULD NEVER LOOK AT A HAND THINKING I HAS FLUSH, CALL!

donks

How often villain plays KJ this way?

0 times

what the fuck do you have against potatoes

nothing i like em i think of them sometimes too but its a bad habit while playing poker

what i mean with "impressive fold imo still! wouldnt expect it from almost any1 except myself " not to sound arrogant what i mean im pretty extreme about herofolds its never been something hard for me, as noticed in this discussion, i dont expect players much better then me makeing folds like these.

because, well lets be honest, we have the absolute top of our range and its hard for him to have the combos that beats us.

but why im going at it so hardcore in this specific hand is more to get my point through that

a: villain cant see what we are folding
b: flush or not it dosnt matter, always think about his valuerang and identify if we beat any of his valuerange or if we have a bluffcatcher
c: with a bluffcatcher think about the likelyness of him bluffing vs ur precieved range
d: dont be blind just because we have a good pokerhand, everything is relative

the K high flop c/c with a f draw or 7x and generally any hand that we beat that c/shoved river for value is very weird and while it could be the case with some low stakes bad regs I don't see anyone competent at these stakes ever doing it.
We have the top of our range and it sucks, but we're still wishing he is a spazz here. I'd autopilot my way into calling on the spot, but after some thought + with the info that this guy is solid and not a tard I think it's a fold.
edit:
It's lame to repeat something that a greenstar just said but at least there's many of them and they're in disagreement =P
I also never saw the above post and should grab a pop corn bag while longple continues to throw in arguments over this

edit, I agree with longple

when i read the hand, I thought we were somehow the original 3-bettor in which case villian cant ever have a hand here, i didnt realize villian is the 3-better and chose not to c-bet.

I would also fold here ;-0

yeah, i like potatoes too.

thanks for posts longple :o

with tom onboard

looool solid thread

i agree with longple here. he cant have a flush, cant have worse vbets really. if i am calling its because i think i beat some valuebets like A7 or 87, but i doubt thats the case. hard to imagine someone has a high enough bluffing frequency here to call

if i read correctly longple you think villians perception of our range on the river is flush or nothing? hell no, even tho i agree with you on the rest based mostly on how many 7x i think he would CC on the flop. if he cbets them all wich is likely then its a fold