This is a hand that makes me blush in absolute shame, as it was horribly played.

I didn't see much 5x in his range, other than maybe 55. And I didn't quite understand the river checkraise jam, if he had a 5x, I figured he would've bet the river himself. And if he has 65..well, I think he should just open jam. I saw some sets as part of his range before the river, but once he check/jammed, as it was 5x or air, I figured I'd call because maybe he might be spazzing with overpairs and turning them into a bluff, or like KsQs that missed on river.

But he is quite LAGish, and yes, he has a very wide UTG range. And I had sufficient info by then, so.. just grossly misplayed hand. This was a clear b/f, and I had initially sized it to b/f too.. -______-. I suck at execution.

This is certainly a spot where fps can take it's toll. just gotta constantly remind yourself that .5/1 regs will be bluffing raising small valuebets a ton less than checkfolding here.

I don't think this is FPS, but maybe you have a different definition to what an FPS is.

ah yeah i guess it isnt. I tend to get fpsy in these spots myself though O.o

I think the problem here u should think about what hands he could 2-barral this kinda of spot and turn it into bluff?
also ur river bet is unlikely u would b/f here if villain understand u just put half stack in this spot
if he bet river with 5x he would not get paid that often imo
and there is no sutiable size he could value bet here

There are plenty of hands that villain could two barrel and turn it into a bluff. In fact, that matters not so much to what villain has, but more to what kind of a player he is, and therefore giving ranges of hands that he can turn it into a bluff is somewhat obsolete. Because the same type of player may just spazz bluff altogether.

I also think you are wrong to say check there with a 5x. In fact, I think you are grossly wrong in saying that. Imho, you should bet river almost always with 5x on river because any sort of pair will likely checkback river after you've fired twice in UTG, while there are still hand ranges that call if you fire for the third time. In wise words of YomeR, "nothing's going to profit you more than a triple barrel value bet". ... or something like that, anyway, the concept is clear.

On May 23 2011 16:45 Arirang wrote: There are plenty of hands that villain could two barrel and turn it into a bluff. In fact, that matters not so much to what villain has, but more to what kind of a player he is, and therefore giving ranges of hands that he can turn it into a bluff is somewhat obsolete. Because the same type of player may just spazz bluff altogether. I also think you are wrong to say check there with a 5x. In fact, I think you are grossly wrong in saying that. Imho, you should bet river almost always with 5x on river because any sort of pair will likely checkback river after you've fired twice in UTG, while there are still hand ranges that call if you fire for the third time. In wise words of YomeR, "nothing's going to profit you more than a triple barrel value bet". ... or something like that, anyway, the concept is clear.

u should look at this kinda of board and the action ur entirely range calling 2-barral consists of 99-QQ , some sort of random float BD drawing hand and 8x
its very unlikely u could have a strong value hand here u are willing pay off if he really overbet jam the river or make it 32-35
A8s probably top range you could rarely have here , he maybe played it wrong way but put us in villain's shoe , what size we should v-bet here?
$20 and hope TT hero call?

On May 23 2011 16:57 sunnysky7 wrote: Show nested quote + On May 23 2011 16:45 Arirang wrote: There are plenty of hands that villain could two barrel and turn it into a bluff. In fact, that matters not so much to what villain has, but more to what kind of a player he is, and therefore giving ranges of hands that he can turn it into a bluff is somewhat obsolete. Because the same type of player may just spazz bluff altogether. I also think you are wrong to say check there with a 5x. In fact, I think you are grossly wrong in saying that. Imho, you should bet river almost always with 5x on river because any sort of pair will likely checkback river after you've fired twice in UTG, while there are still hand ranges that call if you fire for the third time. In wise words of YomeR, "nothing's going to profit you more than a triple barrel value bet". ... or something like that, anyway, the concept is clear. u should look at this kinda of board and the action ur entirely range calling 2-barral consists of 99-QQ , some sort of random float BD drawing hand and 8x its very unlikely u could have a strong value hand here u are willing pay off if he really overbet jam the river or make it 32-35 A8s probably top range you could rarely have here , he maybe played it wrong way but put us in villain's shoe , what size we should v-bet here? $20 and hope TT hero call?

whaaat? why can't we have every value hand?

I fail to see how that's the only hand range that you give to a calling range of a player in position. For the record, I don't think jamming with 5x other than 65 is optimal. But there will be times where jamming 65 is going to be optimal versus certain villain, especially with some reads.

Either way, what you are saying is fundamentally flawed. Let's say the villain does have the ranges you've given them, by not betting the river, they'll just checkback. Let me make a clear example, let's say that on river, with 5x, you bet 1bb, and they call with their given range. That's still 1bb more extraction of value better than your check.

Unless you mean to extract value from airs if you see a lot of airs in his range plus if you view villain to be spazzy, checking is not optimal imo. But you mention none of these, so I suspect this would not be the reason for your check.

i like flop and turn, but would fold to the river ch/raise unless he is some sort of psycho.

yah, what cleaner said.

everything is fine except river is pretty much a fold always