25/50/100 live

bored so going to write a hand I played a week or two ago live that maybe I was wrong with my thought, and to bring possibly an interesting topic for those bored with the strategy posts of late.

25-50 with 100 straddle on button.

I have no reads except he's a fish that was in every pot preflop and that's why I was told to come down and play. This was like my 6th hand at the table and prolly 4th hand out of the 6 I've played.

I'm playing pretty crazy because well everyone at the table is so bad that it's still profitable to play every hand even though it's 9 handed.

I make it 400 utg, the fish that the game was built around before i got there calls, all folds to button and bb who calls.

I have Q982 with two hearts, i sat down with 20k and started this hand with about 16k.

Flop J94 two diamonds, i have no backdoor.

I bet 1200, fish calls, all folds.

turn Tx

I check, Fish bets 4k, I call.

River Qx

I check, Fish pots, I ?

dont u think bettin turn makes the hand easier to play/extracts a lot more value from his 2pr/flush draws/lower str8s/etc?
as payed id prolly muck riv, only hand we beat at this point would be somethin like KKxx w diamonds

muck pre, bet turn, fold riv

9 handed plo with fish that dont fold and ur strategy is to play more hands? Is ur plan to make 4th and 5th nuts and lose or try to blufff fish and lose?

At least u r using position wisely, Q982ss utg, nice.

On November 22 2011 07:19 MiPwnYa wrote: dont u think bettin turn makes the hand easier to play/extracts a lot more value from his 2pr/flush draws/lower str8s/etc? as payed id prolly muck riv, only hand we beat at this point would be somethin like KKxx w diamonds

+1
What was your thought process for going into c/c mode after hitting best possible card on turn?

Played pretty terribly on all streets.

I'd also check/fold flop against a call-happy fish with an extremely marginal hand like this. I really can't phatom the turn check at all.

FWIW, the Qx on the river changes nothing and my turn-check gives me this information.

here's another hand that's very similar spot, that I just played last night.

25-50, 3 handed.

I cover all, I managed to convince two players to play plo 3 handed and up to this point I''m running both of them over with some good cards but also pure aggression.

I raise blind on button to 150, which I've done every hand since we started playing. We're probably about 25-30 hands into the session and the bb is getting wrecked by me to this point.

sb folds, BB makes it 450, I look at Q973, one suit and I call, FWIW I would've called any 4 here.

flop JT8r, he checks, I bet 550, he calls.

turn Jx that brings a backdoor flush draw, he leads like 1.2k, I call.

River 9x, he leads 2.8k, I ???

On November 23 2011 15:08 kaboom wrote: here's another hand that's very similar spot, that I just played last night. 25-50, 3 handed. I cover all, I managed to convince two players to play plo 3 handed and up to this point I''m running both of them over with some good cards but also pure aggression. I raise blind on button to 150, which I've done every hand since we started playing. We're probably about 25-30 hands into the session and the bb is getting wrecked by me to this point. sb folds, BB makes it 450, I look at Q973, one suit and I call, FWIW I would've called any 4 here. flop JT8r, he checks, I bet 550, he calls. turn Jx that brings a backdoor flush draw, he leads like 1.2k, I call. River 9x, he leads 2.8k, I ???

what do u put him on on this turn?

Default play just seems like a call. I don't hate folding, I talk myself into calling nits in these types of spots cuz they take weird lines too often. Raising as a bluff seems terrible if you're hinting at that, he doesn't have kq much.

On November 23 2011 17:37 n0rthf4ce wrote: Show nested quote + On November 23 2011 15:08 kaboom wrote: here's another hand that's very similar spot, that I just played last night. 25-50, 3 handed. I cover all, I managed to convince two players to play plo 3 handed and up to this point I''m running both of them over with some good cards but also pure aggression. I raise blind on button to 150, which I've done every hand since we started playing. We're probably about 25-30 hands into the session and the bb is getting wrecked by me to this point. sb folds, BB makes it 450, I look at Q973, one suit and I call, FWIW I would've called any 4 here. flop JT8r, he checks, I bet 550, he calls. turn Jx that brings a backdoor flush draw, he leads like 1.2k, I call. River 9x, he leads 2.8k, I ??? what do u put him on on this turn?

okay so considering these three things.

- I've raised blind every hand on the button and i've been 3bet by the bb of only his top 15% hands roughly.
- He's gotten stacked by me twice already.=
- bb wasn't 3betting me with hands he felt was hard to play oop.

so that narrows it down to good KKxx, AAxx, and J high run + hands.

on the flop he's only checking calling hands like AKQx, AJTx, AAKx or AAQx with backdoors, KKQx, JT9x, T98x, and maybe a few more similar combos if im missing any.

I think he's leading here like 10% of the times he does have a full house since he probably thinks my betting range on flop is a lot of air, which leaves a lot of KQxx that might have picked up a flush draw, or T98x type hands with a flush draw, or some of his other hands like AAKx/AAQx type hands that picked up a flush draw

also all you geniuses that are telling me how bad my play is preflop etc. and can't phantom calling the river etc.

don't you think I know pre is bad, flop is bad lol?

I posted this hand to see if others would see what I see in this turn/river spot.

I think these are spots that I find people very often make mistakes.

i disagree that the queen changes nothing. i see no reason the fish cant have AK96 or something, peel the flop, bluff the turn and get there on river. or AK65 with king high hearts or something. very easy for him to have nuts. this is not holdem and you are not dealing with a good player. i dont see any reason the fish cant have a random AK + XX where XX connects with the board somehow.

i think river is a close fold. but really i dont think you understand just how bad preflop and flop are. just so incredibly -EV. you can dismiss it saying you know its a mistake, but its a HUGE MISTAKE.

turn is a bet. as played i fold river, but i dont think youre losing more than 1k by calling. and if he is really aggro with semibluffs on flop then its likely river can be a call as well. but its never a slam dunk

On November 24 2011 10:21 Daut wrote: i disagree that the queen changes nothing. i see no reason the fish cant have AK96 or something, peel the flop, bluff the turn and get there on river. or AK65 with king high hearts or something. very easy for him to have nuts. this is not holdem and you are not dealing with a good player. i dont see any reason the fish cant have a random AK + XX where XX connects with the board somehow. i think river is a close fold. but really i dont think you understand just how bad preflop and flop are. just so incredibly -EV. you can dismiss it saying you know its a mistake, but its a HUGE MISTAKE. turn is a bet. as played i fold river, but i dont think youre losing more than 1k by calling. and if he is really aggro with semibluffs on flop then its likely river can be a call as well. but its never a slam dunk

I really didn't want to discuss preflop/flop, nonetheless I will since at least your post wasn't just simply "BAD", although you changed your tone to that later on in your post.

During the first orbit of sitting down there are many table dynamics to consider;

- my image that I'm setting up*** (This game is built around one really bad player who attracted a lot of slightly better bad players)
- my image before I even sat down******** (some players tried to keep the game 8 handed so i can't sit down, while others very wanted me in the game)
- actions/board sequences from previous hands***** (my vpip/pfr up to this point is about 90/90)
- the players in the game************ (who I was given information on before I even sat down + I've played with a few players in a short handed game a few weeks ago).

Quite honestly I would've opened blind UTG /w any four cards, which I was doing later into the night and I'm not saying this to point that everyone was the worst and I'm the best player in the world. Eventually after an hour or two of playing, me and the fish got to a point where I felt the table dynamics got to a point where the "EV" that I lost by blind potting and getting re-potted blind preflop by the fish directly to my left in certain positions became extremely profitable due to many factors such as and not limited to.

- Much more information on the fish's bet sizing habits/general thought process (broad, I can touch on this as well in the future if we have a good discussion)/past hand actions+board sequences.
- stack sizes, (The fish and I reloaded to about 100k whereas everyone else excluding one other player were sitting with an average stack of 13-15k)
- the relations/histories of the current session between me and the fish.
- the amount of drinks and mood the fish has had.
- my positioning, fish's position (directly to my left), and the position of the other deep stack and the short stacks who were willing to play correctly (nobody).

My cards/action preflop, flop are irrelevant because the action and board sequence went the way it went and the interesting decisions are on the turn/river.

the fish never has AKxx here since he must have precisely AKxx with hearts and he would not bet AKxx with hearts on the turn full pot.

I can go more into this if you want, but first you need to get past the fact that preflop, flop is just simply "bad plays" or "Incredibly -EV".

On November 24 2011 06:32 kaboom wrote: I posted this hand to see if others would see what I see in this turn/river spot. I think these are spots that I find people very often make mistakes. .

would you please tell us what you see in that hand instead of being condescendingly vague ?
im curious

On November 25 2011 04:26 kaboom wrote: the fish never has AKxx here since he must have precisely AKxx with hearts and he would not bet AKxx with hearts on the turn full pot. I can go more into this if you want, but first you need to get past the fact that preflop, flop is just simply "bad plays" or "Incredibly -EV".

lol? Daut's post is spot on. I'm gonna repeat what others are saying because It's very important. PREFLOP is a FOLD not only because the position/cards are unplayable but YOU are capable of making COSTLY MISTAKES of MISPLAYING your hand. Why are you checking this turn? More so, why aren't you check/folding this flop if your gonna check this turn??

Also, AKxx hearts is not the only hand he can have AKQT, AKJT, AKJx, AKTx, AK49, KKAx list goes on...

edit: wrong quote

Yeah I didn't want to say it because of the 'also all you geniuses that are telling me' but not wanting to discuss pf and flop is pretty dumb because we wouldn't get into spots like this because we wouldn't play this hand.

Now you can create a spot where you have a hand like QT87ds or something but then you'd probably bet the turn because you feel more confident in your hand the whole way through.

Like Andrew said; avoiding big mistakes is hard when playing shitty hands this way.

I like the concept of people making bigger mistakes to make up for small mistakes made earlier in the hand, which is kind of what you're doing here. Small mistake is opening this hand (because you don't lose much), somewhat bigger mistake is betting this flop where you're going to be outplayed a lot, then because your hand is so vulnerable you choose to check/call setting yourself up to be outplayed by a fish (making more bigger mistakes) while it's so much easier to bet/fold turn and if he calls check/fold river.

The reason why you're not getting a decent discussion out of this is because the hand in itself is ridiculous and you're being condescending. It's not our fault that no-one is agreeing with you ;o.

Short version: you're being very stubborn.

On November 26 2011 05:17 Twisted wrote: Yeah I didn't want to say it because of the 'also all you geniuses that are telling me' but not wanting to discuss pf and flop is pretty dumb because we wouldn't get into spots like this because we wouldn't play this hand. Now you can create a spot where you have a hand like QT87ds or something but then you'd probably bet the turn because you feel more confident in your hand the whole way through. Like Andrew said; avoiding big mistakes is hard when playing shitty hands this way. I like the concept of people making bigger mistakes to make up for small mistakes made earlier in the hand, which is kind of what you're doing here. Small mistake is opening this hand (because you don't lose much), somewhat bigger mistake is betting this flop where you're going to be outplayed a lot, then because your hand is so vulnerable you choose to check/call setting yourself up to be outplayed by a fish (making more bigger mistakes) while it's so much easier to bet/fold turn and if he calls check/fold river. The reason why you're not getting a decent discussion out of this is because the hand in itself is ridiculous and you're being condescending. It's not our fault that no-one is agreeing with you ;o. Short version: you're being very stubborn.

I'm not asking people to agree with me and it's hard not t be condescending when the only comments that come out is "this is horrible".

I posted this hand since from a bad preflop/flop play came what I thought was an interesting spot.

Also, small mistakes and -ev plays can lead to very +ev plays in the future.

There's so much to consider during a hand, not just the basic thought process you go through in a typical 100BB online hand.

I guess I'm the worst, since when I try to post a hand that is not the norm, all I hear is how bad I am since I don't know simple concepts like not raising shitty hands UTG preflop and betting a weak hand in a multi-way pot.

On November 25 2011 22:09 AndrewSong wrote: Show nested quote + On November 25 2011 04:26 kaboom wrote: the fish never has AKxx here since he must have precisely AKxx with hearts and he would not bet AKxx with hearts on the turn full pot. I can go more into this if you want, but first you need to get past the fact that preflop, flop is just simply "bad plays" or "Incredibly -EV". lol? Daut's post is spot on. I'm gonna repeat what others are saying because It's very important. PREFLOP is a FOLD not only because the position/cards are unplayable but YOU are capable of making COSTLY MISTAKES of MISPLAYING your hand. Why are you checking this turn? More so, why aren't you check/folding this flop if your gonna check this turn?? Also, AKxx hearts is not the only hand he can have AKQT, AKJT, AKJx, AKTx, AK49, KKAx list goes on... edit: wrong quote

Daut's post is good, no need to repeat simple concepts again.

I check the turn since it's more value than bet/calling.

He never has AKQT, AKJT, AKJx, AKTx, AK49 (maybe), KKAx (not betting full pot). He's 3betting pre almost all these hands except AK49.

for checking to be better than betting he has to be 3betting pre w/ all combinations of AKxx and he has to be bluffin all straight completin turns and keep bluffin on most rivers, if you do have that kind of read then you dont need our opinion and you can happily c/c twice then proceed to tell us how you made an awesome hero call in a high stakes live game, but if you ask us to analyze the hand in a vacuum vs a random fish you should expect people to give you the kind of answers that have been given in this thread so far.

there are basically infinite combos of AhXhK* or KhXhA*.

when you factor in that he can also have AK9x, AKXX where XX is a flush draw you are dealing with a pretty extraordinary number of hand combos. of course he can have other missed draws too, but saying the queen changes nothing is insane. he could also have KK+straight and feel very confident its good.

On November 26 2011 11:52 MiPwnYa wrote: for checking to be better than betting he has to be 3betting pre w/ all combinations of AKxx and he has to be bluffin all straight completin turns and keep bluffin on most rivers, if you do have that kind of read then you dont need our opinion and you can happily c/c twice then proceed to tell us how you made an awesome hero call in a high stakes live game, but if you ask us to analyze the hand in a vacuum vs a random fish you should expect people to give you the kind of answers that have been given in this thread so far.

first off this is not a "awesome hero call in high stakes game", I didn't post this hand to show how cool I am if I wanted to do that I would've posted a hero call for a 100k+ pot.

At least we're starting to discuss things.

From my knowledge up to that point he would've 3bet all good AKxx hands, KKxx hands.

If you consider that he's betting his entire range on the turn which include hands that beat me, and he's betting that same entire range on the river. Would it be a profitable call vs a fish who is playing 100/0 maybe 10% 3bet?

I didn't want to post an essay on how he played the previous 9 hands, but I suppose it's unfair to post this hand without posting the previous 7-8 hands that allowed me to exclude certain hands from his range when he full potted turn.

On November 26 2011 12:01 Daut wrote: there are basically infinite combos of AhXhK* or KhXhA*. when you factor in that he can also have AK9x, AKXX where XX is a flush draw you are dealing with a pretty extraordinary number of hand combos. of course he can have other missed draws too, but saying the queen changes nothing is insane. he could also have KK+straight and feel very confident its good.

there are infinite combos surely, but would he flat those infinite combos then call turn, then full pot turn.

now there are not so many combos with the reads on the player I gave, agree?

I say he doesn't have AKxx with hearts here because the fish up to this point was not showing the willingness to semi-bluff when he had a drawing hand.

I think his range is very polarized here once he full pots turn, which is why I check/called vs bet/calling.

once I called the turn, the river doesn't really change anything since not many combinations of AKxx get there and if I was beat by KQxx I'm paying off.

lots of good posts, i wish i had a clue on hwo to play this game

On November 26 2011 12:10 kaboom wrote: If you consider that he's betting his entire range on the turn which include hands that beat me, and he's betting that same entire range on the river. Would it be a profitable call vs a fish who is playing 100/0 maybe 10% 3bet?

With that kind of read of course cc turn riv is the best line we can use but you know thats not how our average fish plays, theres not point in asking us if you dont tell us the reads you got on villain

I didn't want to post an essay on how he played the previous 9 hands, but I suppose it's unfair to post this hand without posting the previous 7-8 hands that allowed me to exclude certain hands from his range when he full potted turn.

Thats pretty much my point. Thanks for acknowledging it at least.

Kind of dis-interested with poker lately, so was lazy with the initial post.

+ the bad comments in the start didn't encourage me to really post anything insightful.

FWIW, I called he showed JT9x.

I was kinda curious about how it's +EV to play a range of every single hand we're dealt against a range of every single hand they're dealt. It seems like PLO isn't that kind of game where you can just outplay someone by betting at them OOP. I play much smaller stakes than you do, though, and none of that opening a trash hand into a full table of idiots who call with everything made sense to me. I also didn't think checking a straight was good on the turn, what was the idea there?

Sorry to necro a thread from last year but I'm really into PLO atm, there's a really juicy live game near me for the stakes I play.

On November 27 2011 07:51 kaboom wrote: Kind of dis-interested with poker lately, so was lazy with the initial post. + the bad comments in the start didn't encourage me to really post anything insightful. FWIW, I called he showed JT9x.

you do understand check/call to hope chop is a -EV play right?

On January 03 2012 18:47 sunnysky7 wrote: Show nested quote + On November 27 2011 07:51 kaboom wrote: Kind of dis-interested with poker lately, so was lazy with the initial post. + the bad comments in the start didn't encourage me to really post anything insightful. FWIW, I called he showed JT9x. you do understand check/call to hope chop is a -EV play right?

???

So your playing every single hand regardless of position, to set up an image?

That seems to go against some very important fundamentals of the game, while not having much benefit considering the way PLO plays.... It's one thing to play semi loose, but crap hands oop in a 9 handed game seems like equity suicide.