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Bitcoin's and the future of online banking

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Steal City   United States. Apr 16 2011 02:32. Posts 2537

Hey, I've known you guys for many years. A few days ago (coincidently it now appears) I was in Singapore and my friend Genjix (whom many of you have a poor impression of because he's a little brash when he talks)... well he called me and paid for my next day flight to Amsterdam from Singapore. Last few days I've more than acquainted myself with Bitcoin.

He has the Britcoin exchange which is the Bitcoin exchange for the UK and while it has little volume the software is working perfectly. He recently gave a conference talking about Bitcoin which received tons of attention and is getting offers to make exchanges in many many countries. These new exchanges will be working under full legal status. That is not to say that the one Genjix operates now is illegal but there is no legal status regarding such a new innovation... as well as Genjix's exchange is not run for profit.

Genjix first got interested when trying to create free software for a poker client because of the feeling that rake on some sites was excessive. Disapproval by the 2P2 and LP caused him to focus on developing Bitcoin and he has added greatly to the software/movement in the last few months.

Now it is getting much publicity and Genjix is on the forefront of this, one of the few people completely knowledgeable about the code/software/market et cetera. Due to recent events there may be a stronger desire for an open source poker client to be produced.

I'm just making this thread now to let the community know and I will explain some things if there are questions although I have a lot of other bitcoin related work to do.

There should be a Time article coming out tomorrow about Bitcoin being the future of online banking, IE not having to pay transaction costs, exchange costs et cetera. It is hard to think of a world where bitcoin or an exactly similar software isn't second nature to us and it is only a matter of time before people stop paying exorbitant fees for things that should cost very little.

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Steal City   United States. Apr 16 2011 02:43. Posts 2537

Also genjix has been in personal connection with the EFF has already said it would protect the software and software developers but not necessarily people running it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_Frontier_Foundation

He did things because there was corporate interest in his website.

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qwerty67890   New Zealand. Apr 16 2011 03:20. Posts 14026

Did he pay for your flight with bitcoins?


Arirang   Canada. Apr 16 2011 03:54. Posts 1662

You know, this bitcoin thing may become something really incredible as years to come. But right now, it feels like fantasy money, like rupees. I'm also interested to know how it would grow to compete in a commercial setting. It seems that bitcoin is very ... uh.. "for the people" kind of thing. My question is, can the gov't and banks make money off of this new currency in some shape or form.. because the introduction of bitcoins sounds like it's going to hurt a lot of ways businesses make money (like transfer fees and such).


devon06atX   Canada. Apr 16 2011 03:59. Posts 5363

I'm basically 100% uneducated about bitcoin, but I'm assuming with the way people feel about online (real $) funds in general, that it may be a very very difficult time to increase trust in something radically new.

From Wiki:
Bitcoin is a digital currency created in 2009 by Satoshi Nakamoto. The name also refers to the open source software he designed that uses it, and the peer-to-peer network that it forms. The total value of the Bitcoin economy is 4,500,174 USD (April 2011).[1] Unlike most currencies, bitcoin does not rely on trusting any central issuer. Bitcoin uses a distributed database spread across nodes of a peer-to-peer network to journal transactions, and uses cryptography in order to provide basic security functions, such as ensuring that bitcoins can only be spent by the person who owns them, and never more than once.

Bitcoin's design allows for anonymous ownership and transfers of value. Bitcoins can be saved on a personal computer in the form of a wallet file or kept with a third party wallet service, and in either case Bitcoins can be sent over the Internet to anyone with a Bitcoin address. Bitcoin's peer-to-peer topology and lack of central administration make it infeasible for any authority, governmental or otherwise, to manipulate the value of bitcoins or induce inflation by producing more of them.

There is a limited controlled inflation hardcoded in the Bitcoin software, but it is predictable and known to all parties in advance.[5] Inflation cannot therefore be centrally manipulated to effect redistribution of value from general users.

END

Basically it's just virtual money with a built in 'production' mechanism for making more which blocks authoritative groups (government, whatever) affecting it in adverse ways? Why do people even buy bitcoins? Kind of seems like a novelty... I mean, PS play chips DO have an online currency as well, know what I mean?

Also, since it seems it's completely run by 'network nodes', where does the money go that people buy bitcoins with?

just read this:
As long as you make backups of your Bitcoin wallet, protect it with a strong password and keep keyloggers away from your computer. You need to make a backup of your wallet after each transaction, as the old wallet backup will be partially or completely invalid.
If you lose your wallet or if some unknown attacker gets it and manages to break your password, there’s no way to get your coins back. On the other hand, that is usually also the case if you lose your physical wallet.

Sounds a lot like a novelty imo. Altho, gl to genji I guess, sounds like he's doing what he loves.


Steal City   United States. Apr 16 2011 04:46. Posts 2537

ok well, you still don't understand it, no probs. But it's more secure then online banking because it's built around mathematical rules which cannot be broken and not centralized authority (ie accounts can't be seized or manipulated et cetera) and in order to send $ from one country to the next the fees will be between 0.00$ and 0.01$ and take an hour or less. Modern banking takes 2-7 days often and there are exchange costs and transfer costs. You say it sounds like a novelty but it really could have been done in the 90s.

Anywya, it's hard for me to answer all these questions buvt I will try to in the next few days

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Steal City   United States. Apr 16 2011 04:51. Posts 2537


  On April 16 2011 02:54 Arirang wrote:
You know, this bitcoin thing may become something really incredible as years to come. But right now, it feels like fantasy money, like rupees. I'm also interested to know how it would grow to compete in a commercial setting. It seems that bitcoin is very ... uh.. "for the people" kind of thing. My question is, can the gov't and banks make money off of this new currency in some shape or form.. because the introduction of bitcoins sounds like it's going to hurt a lot of ways businesses make money (like transfer fees and such).



your logic sounds like you would like to Luddite movement. Lowering operating costs adds to society just like technological advances. It will grow through a commercial setting because people will save money. Imagine a loop of 3 companies or 2 companies who exchange services with each other today. We could look at their business and tell them TODAY how much money they could save by taking off the overhead of excessive bank costs. Governments and banks do not need to make money off something for it to permeate society?! If 99% of the people are helped by this new advancement then that is good enough surely.

Intersango.com intersango.com  

Steal City   United States. Apr 16 2011 04:54. Posts 2537


  On April 16 2011 02:59 devon06atX wrote:
I'm basically 100% uneducated about bitcoin, but I'm assuming with the way people feel about online (real $) funds in general, that it may be a very very difficult time to increase trust in something radically new.

From Wiki:
Bitcoin is a digital currency created in 2009 by Satoshi Nakamoto. The name also refers to the open source software he designed that uses it, and the peer-to-peer network that it forms. The total value of the Bitcoin economy is 4,500,174 USD (April 2011).[1] Unlike most currencies, bitcoin does not rely on trusting any central issuer. Bitcoin uses a distributed database spread across nodes of a peer-to-peer network to journal transactions, and uses cryptography in order to provide basic security functions, such as ensuring that bitcoins can only be spent by the person who owns them, and never more than once.

Bitcoin's design allows for anonymous ownership and transfers of value. Bitcoins can be saved on a personal computer in the form of a wallet file or kept with a third party wallet service, and in either case Bitcoins can be sent over the Internet to anyone with a Bitcoin address. Bitcoin's peer-to-peer topology and lack of central administration make it infeasible for any authority, governmental or otherwise, to manipulate the value of bitcoins or induce inflation by producing more of them.

There is a limited controlled inflation hardcoded in the Bitcoin software, but it is predictable and known to all parties in advance.[5] Inflation cannot therefore be centrally manipulated to effect redistribution of value from general users.

END

Basically it's just virtual money with a built in 'production' mechanism for making more which blocks authoritative groups (government, whatever) affecting it in adverse ways? Why do people even buy bitcoins? Kind of seems like a novelty... I mean, PS play chips DO have an online currency as well, know what I mean?

Also, since it seems it's completely run by 'network nodes', where does the money go that people buy bitcoins with?

just read this:
As long as you make backups of your Bitcoin wallet, protect it with a strong password and keep keyloggers away from your computer. You need to make a backup of your wallet after each transaction, as the old wallet backup will be partially or completely invalid.
If you lose your wallet or if some unknown attacker gets it and manages to break your password, there’s no way to get your coins back. On the other hand, that is usually also the case if you lose your physical wallet.

Sounds a lot like a novelty imo. Altho, gl to genji I guess, sounds like he's doing what he loves.



It will take time to spread awareness. Trust will be automatic once people understand it. Because you don't need to trust anyone or any government. You need to trust the code which you can see. It's like saying you need to trust physical laws or that gravity will exist tomorrow.

While bitcoins are being generated they go to the people who facilitate in the authentication process of verifying transfers. When the currency stops the facilitation will be picked up by people adding 1 cent to their transfer. And the transfer you make will cost the electricity necessary to make it. You can buy tons of good with Bitcoin now and it will only get better. What use is it? I've already said how it has a huge advantage and the market will grow around that.

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Funktion   Australia. Apr 16 2011 05:14. Posts 1638


  On April 16 2011 03:54 Steal City wrote:
It will take time to spread awareness. Trust will be automatic once people understand it. Because you don't need to trust anyone or any government. You need to trust the code which you can see. It's like saying you need to trust physical laws or that gravity will exist tomorrow.


Yes it's been my experience that people instantly trust new technologies and aren't sceptical at all. Especially when it comes to money, people couldn't be more trusting.

That is one shit analogy you used. Gravity isn't man made or subject to greed.


Steal City   United States. Apr 16 2011 05:20. Posts 2537


  On April 16 2011 04:14 Funktion wrote:
Show nested quote +


Yes it's been my experience that people instantly trust new technologies and aren't sceptical at all. Especially when it comes to money, people couldn't be more trusting.

That is one shit analogy you used. Gravity isn't man made or subject to greed.



I said spread awareness. If you were actually aware of it you would trust it.

Gravity is the perfect analogy you are just ignorant of what you are commenting on. You can go in and read the code. If you know code, you can read it like you would read English or Spanish. You don't have to trust any human being or community of human beings, you have to trust the mathematical and visible code which is in place... IE the mathematical laws... like the physical law of gravity

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Arirang   Canada. Apr 16 2011 05:36. Posts 1662

Somehow, you need a way to explain to the general public that Bitcoin is a failsafe currency that can be trusted without all the technical mumbo jumbo. It may be difficult, but it's what you are going to need.


RaiNKhAN    United States. Apr 16 2011 06:17. Posts 4080

kiss my bitcoin son

The biggest Rockets, Sixers, and Grizzlies fan you will ever meet! 

FullBRing   Philippines. Apr 16 2011 09:22. Posts 558

this whole bitcoins things is pretty interesting imo and really start to rise ! Is genjix=satashi ?


Steal City   United States. Apr 16 2011 09:47. Posts 2537

genjix is not satashi

check the vid out here. Perhaps it can explain some things

weusecoins.com

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Steal City   United States. Apr 16 2011 10:27. Posts 2537

also satashi doesn't own anything and genjix doesn't own anyhting. Just because we're setting up exchanges doesn't mean we own anything. That's just an auxiliary service operating in the bitcoin market. No one owns the market. Please read up by just googling bitcoin if you don't follow

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Steal City   United States. Apr 16 2011 12:01. Posts 2537

http://techland.time.com/2011/04/16/o...-bitcoin-could-challenge-governments/

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Bejamin1   Canada. Apr 16 2011 13:17. Posts 7042

I think you'll have a tough time convincing major governments and corporations to adopt such a thing. If nobody can track amounts and everything like that doesn't this sort of thing become optimal for money laundering?

Sorry dude he Jason Bourned me. -Johnny Drama 

Funktion   Australia. Apr 16 2011 14:46. Posts 1638


  On April 16 2011 04:20 Steal City wrote:
Show nested quote +




I said spread awareness. If you were actually aware of it you would trust it.

Gravity is the perfect analogy you are just ignorant of what you are commenting on. You can go in and read the code. If you know code, you can read it like you would read English or Spanish. You don't have to trust any human being or community of human beings, you have to trust the mathematical and visible code which is in place... IE the mathematical laws... like the physical law of gravity


I'm not ignorant you're analogy just sucks balls. I have a degree in Computer and Info Science, what do you have? Second hand knowledge as if it were gospel? This might be the next big thing in internet technology but to say people should and would trust it instantly is fucking retarded. Last I checked its not real easy to hack or exploit gravity. Maybe you have no clue on the history of internet crime etc. But there is always some smart dude out there who takes it as a challenge to beat something and this will be beaten. Sure it will be patched and improved but you make it sound like it is PERFECT now. Perfection just doesn't happen in the coding or systems world. There will be some weakness somewhere maybe not in the encryption or databases or whatever but I guarantee there will be an exploit of some kind.

It took years and years for people to trust online banking. And banks at least when internet transactions were becoming popular were mostly thought of as safe. If it took years for the banking industry to build up a decent online sector do you really think that over night some open source currency is going to take over the world? Fucking wake up man. I'm not saying it can't and won't happen I'm saying that the shit you are typing is way over hyped. I get that these bitcoin people and yourself are excited about the possibilities but just because you're convinced doesn't mean the masses are. I also see the points in that above article it cites as positives can easily be demonstrated as negatives. Anonymity and no intermediaries is all well and good but it's a two way street and sounds like the perfect breeding ground for scammers to me.

You say "You don't have to trust any human being or community of human beings, you have to trust the mathematical and visible code which is in place... IE the mathematical laws... like the physical law of gravity." Out of the 6 billion people on earth how many do you think know enough about either mathematics or code to go and read it themselves and make an informed judgement? Your statements are just moronic and not based in the real world. I can explain to someone the concept of gravity in like 1 sentence, can you really do the same with this technology?

I mean previously you said, "We could look at their business and tell them TODAY how much money they could save by taking off the overhead of excessive bank costs." Which is such an over simplified statement it's just ridiculous (and yes I know something about this shit as I'm currently doing a finance degree, which I'm sure you already have). I can't even be bothered going on anymore as this shit is way too long as is, could probably write another 3k words on your leaps in logic and simplistic statements.

TLDR You have blind faith and bitcoin is your religion.


Steal City   United States. Apr 16 2011 15:00. Posts 2537


  On April 16 2011 12:17 Bejamin1 wrote:
I think you'll have a tough time convincing major governments and corporations to adopt such a thing. If nobody can track amounts and everything like that doesn't this sort of thing become optimal for money laundering?



there will be no convincing. I'm not sure what you are on about. We're just putting out free software and people can use it. We're not trying to sell anything to the government.

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Steal City   United States. Apr 16 2011 15:10. Posts 2537


  On April 16 2011 13:46 Funktion wrote:
Show nested quote +


I'm not ignorant you're analogy just sucks balls. I have a degree in Computer and Info Science, what do you have? Second hand knowledge as if it were gospel? This might be the next big thing in internet technology but to say people should and would trust it instantly is fucking retarded. Last I checked its not real easy to hack or exploit gravity. Maybe you have no clue on the history of internet crime etc. But there is always some smart dude out there who takes it as a challenge to beat something and this will be beaten. Sure it will be patched and improved but you make it sound like it is PERFECT now. Perfection just doesn't happen in the coding or systems world. There will be some weakness somewhere maybe not in the encryption or databases or whatever but I guarantee there will be an exploit of some kind.

It took years and years for people to trust online banking. And banks at least when internet transactions were becoming popular were mostly thought of as safe. If it took years for the banking industry to build up a decent online sector do you really think that over night some open source currency is going to take over the world? Fucking wake up man. I'm not saying it can't and won't happen I'm saying that the shit you are typing is way over hyped. I get that these bitcoin people and yourself are excited about the possibilities but just because you're convinced doesn't mean the masses are. I also see the points in that above article it cites as positives can easily be demonstrated as negatives. Anonymity and no intermediaries is all well and good but it's a two way street and sounds like the perfect breeding ground for scammers to me.

You say "You don't have to trust any human being or community of human beings, you have to trust the mathematical and visible code which is in place... IE the mathematical laws... like the physical law of gravity." Out of the 6 billion people on earth how many do you think know enough about either mathematics or code to go and read it themselves and make an informed judgement? Your statements are just moronic and not based in the real world. I can explain to someone the concept of gravity in like 1 sentence, can you really do the same with this technology?

I mean previously you said, "We could look at their business and tell them TODAY how much money they could save by taking off the overhead of excessive bank costs." Which is such an over simplified statement it's just ridiculous (and yes I know something about this shit as I'm currently doing a finance degree, which I'm sure you already have). I can't even be bothered going on anymore as this shit is way too long as is, could probably write another 3k words on your leaps in logic and simplistic statements.

TLDR You have blind faith and bitcoin is your religion.



I have a degree from a college that isn't 2nd rate so lol at "Info Science". Every technology has positives and negatives. Scammers can scam you face to face, people can buy drugs with cash... you are not seeing the big picture. I'm not saying 6 billion people can read the code. I can't but there is trust via social proof and you just have to trust fewer people. When you put money in banks you trust their less developed software AND the people AND the government... here you just have to trust the software but it's open source so you can see what people say about it.

ok i'm not getting into a fight with you. You can't grasp it no, biggie. You already trust the same software with an added level of a company having your info and being able to maliciously use it. So This way you cut out the company and the software is open source and scrutinized like none other.

You should learn to read up on things so that you actually know what to criticise instead of just accusing people of what in the end amounts to nothing. I'm doing a favour to LP letting them know about this.

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