When people check in the dark...

I was playing a pretty loose low stakes live game yesterday (1-2 shekels, which is about 0.25-0.5$) when this happened:

EP raise, 3 callers. flop is something like Qs-Xc-Xc.
Original raiser Cbets, MP folds, CO and the guy on the button, both competent players, call. pot is like 100 shekels
turn is a third club (10c I think)- original raiser checks, CO checks, button bets 60, looked pretty strong to me. 1st guy folds, CO check-raises to 120.
button, looking slightly confused, but still pretty confident, calls (looked to me like he was pondering a reraise).
at this point CO checks dark, and the river comes a blank.
button looks confused.. "why would u do that?!".
disgusted he checks behind, showing an 8 high flush on a non paired board (!), CO shows a J high flush and takes the pot.

I thought the guy on the button just had a good read at first, but when I asked him why did he check behind (as there are still plenty of hands he can beat), he just said that the dark check looked suspicious.
I argued that when people check dark on draw heavey boards, they usually are with some sort of a made hand, and are afraid of a 4th club, or a made flush or something- then the CO (who got totally owned this hand) says, "yea, that's what I wanted him to think"...
so I guess the guy on the button cought on that, as he said to me later he didn't have any special physical read on the CO that hand.

I fealt sick at being at this table, as I would have taken the bate probably.

anyway, this long story just got me to ask myself: what do checks in the dark usually mean in your opinion?
like, when a standard, level 2 thinking player, checks in the dark... what do u put him on? (weak, marginal, drawy, or nuts?)

hope the post is clear enough...

Sorry pal but I wont know until they implement the button into online games. That would be fun

[ ]both competent players

when someone hits the best cooler in poker(flush over flush) and wins the absolute minimum, he's not competent, he's a huge retard

when someone checks in the dark i insta label him as a fish

On February 01 2010 09:09 collegesucks wrote: when someone checks in the dark i insta label him as a fish

This ( Dunno if you guys noticed but Hellmuth does this a lot, always when hes always weak PF, Negreanu too)

On February 01 2010 08:24 player999 wrote: when someone hits the best cooler in poker(flush over flush) and wins the absolute minimum, he's not competent, he's a huge retard

Def not this...You're basically saying you'll never fold a flush here

On February 01 2010 09:20 Eazygun wrote: Show nested quote + On February 01 2010 09:09 collegesucks wrote: when someone checks in the dark i insta label him as a fish This ( Dunno if you guys noticed but Hellmuth does this a lot, always when hes always weak PF]

this isn't always true, I've seen him do it with KK

well, against this particular opponent you can check in the dark with a marginal showdown hand u dont wanna get bluffed off of.

oh that wasnt the question but whatever thats the only thought on the subject ive got=d

On February 01 2010 09:20 Eazygun wrote: Show nested quote + On February 01 2010 09:09 collegesucks wrote: when someone checks in the dark i insta label him as a fish This ( Dunno if you guys noticed but Hellmuth does this a lot, always when hes always weak PF, Negreanu too)

HAHAHA ok if PHIL HELLMUTH does it it must be a great play coz phil is the world's best

Show nested quote + On February 01 2010 08:24 player999 wrote: when someone hits the best cooler in poker(flush over flush) and wins the absolute minimum, he's not competent, he's a huge retard Def not this...You're basically saying you'll never fold a flush here

No I didnt say that, I said he is a retard for not betting and if you can't see why quit poker, not in the mood to explain

On February 01 2010 10:04 player999 wrote: Show nested quote + On February 01 2010 09:20 Eazygun wrote:   On February 01 2010 09:09 collegesucks wrote: when someone checks in the dark i insta label him as a fish This ( Dunno if you guys noticed but Hellmuth does this a lot, always when hes always weak PF, Negreanu too) HAHAHA ok if PHIL HELLMUTH does it it must be a great play coz phil is the world's best [QUOTE:[/B]

work on your reading comprehension bro, 'cos right now you look like a cock.

There are reasons to donk instead of check-raise/check-fold/check-call. If someone announces dark check I figure that they dont know how to play that well.

check raising the turn is gonna make pretty much every hand that's not a flush check back the river, so leading river is the best choice not checking even if its "dark"

ffs, can anyone who plays live answer this question seriously?
obv checking in this spot is sick, but this guy was trying to "sell" a tell that he is weak/marginal so he could either:
1. check-raise and get called by something weaker. (win extra bet)
2. induce a bet by a weaker holding that might have checked behind or folded to a bet otherwise. (win extra bet)
3. check-call a stronger holding and not be put in a gay spot if he bets and gets raised...

obviously this looks donkish betting-paterns by both.
but there was an added metagame factor, that live poker has- TELLS.
I guess all of you smart asses would have bet-fold/bet-call with the 8 high flush? if you bet call, than this guy tricked u into 1 more bet.

Ill be more specific- in this spot, what would u put the dark-checker on?

The answer is that it depends. You'd have to know something about the player to assume anything about what his checking-in-the-dark means. What we can assume here is that he's not a very good player based on the way he played the hand. That's about it.

player999
If you didnt noticed, you just agreed with me..
reading comprehension +1

they're all doing the live equivelant of pushing random buttons and are terrible.

"yea, that's what I wanted him to think" translates to 'wow i have no idea wtf i was doing, better act like i planned this all along!'

i play live a lot for fun in casinos and home games and never have seen anyone check in the dark.

I don't see a lot of dark checking in home games, but it's not particularly uncommon in casinos.

i check in the dark live a lot but im a fish

I too assume that anyone who checks dark won't play very well untill proven otherwise.

As played LOL I guess I would think a couple of secounds more before I'd bet the river (however, if he had raised like he should have or bet into me on the turn he'd stack me 100%) and depending on how deep we are I might even bet/fold just because it has to be such a weird person to check dark/raise vs an "obvious" flush/strong made hand as a bluff.

Both of them pretty much played the hand like crap, the J-high flush more then the other dude.

Pushing in the dark is the superior play.

I haven't seen this guy check dark before so I could'nt draw any circumstantial decisions to what he might had at the river, neither did the guy on button- who correctly folded an inferior flush a few rounds earlier.
I do know that I played with him for a couple of hours and he WAS competent... so I believed him when he said he meant to make it look like he had some scared semi-strong hand.
I dont see any other reason for him to check river too, and I am 100% sure he wouldnt have done that against a fishy opponent... he would just value bet river against fish...

anyway live play is THE SHIT.

live play is boring ....

not the shit haha

live play sucks balls and this guy sucks balls, checking the river is a terrible mistake any way you slice it.

Genjix, i deal in a casino in the midlands and it happens alot. Equally i find people check in the dark, when they arebasicly on a check call line, it makes me think people are not getting away from the hand.

On February 01 2010 12:00 rS.Wisdom[9] wrote: they're all doing the live equivelant of pushing random buttons and are terrible. "yea, that's what I wanted him to think" translates to 'wow i have no idea wtf i was doing, better act like i planned this all along!'

This

On February 01 2010 14:45 mrspooh wrote: Genjix, i deal in a casino in the midlands and it happens alot. Equally i find people check in the dark, when they arebasicly on a check call line, it makes me think people are not getting away from the hand.

1 relevent reply out of 28, ty LP...

On February 01 2010 12:00 rS.Wisdom[9] wrote: they're all doing the live equivelant of pushing random buttons and are terrible. "yea, that's what I wanted him to think" translates to 'wow i have no idea wtf i was doing, better act like i planned this all along!'

This is exactly correct.

randomly clicking buttons is a very underrated strategy...i do it all the time

in this situation it probably means they always have some short of SD value and never a semi bluff (i.e possibly KQ with a club and never AcJx).

Though yeah with live poker some people dont have any logic in what they are doing but the above should be correct quite often. If they are drawing and c/ring turn they wont be checking dark river incase they hit. now if he check called turn and checked in the dark for river then its different

i dont think either of these guys are lvl 2 thinking payers.. the dude check minraised thinking he was making a value bet, when the guy called he got scared, decided to check dark because he was gonna check light anyway, and it might make the other guy value bet lighter.

alot of live players just play hands on instinct and gut feeling, they dont know the logic behind it but in this case the guys gut feeling was he was either beat or close to beat, so he didnt wanna get more money in the pot.

if he checks in the dark i bet in the dark and say LOL OWNED!

I didn't read the hand (playing) but if I was to check in the dark it'd be because I decided to give up on the hand because I was bluffing.

At my local casino regs like to raise preflop in the dark to mess about/gamble a bit. Maybe the want to look loose... I don't know how they think.

Heres how I like to establish my image when i arrive at a live game:

First, once ive taken my seat, I put on my mirrored shades.
I pull out my Moneymaker Medallion card protector and lay it down
I post my BB out of position, and immediately declare "check dark"
If anyone raises PF, I say "timebank dark" before it gets to me
After a little hollywood so they cant get a read, ill usually say "fold dark"
Then ill ask if we're at the feature table.

On February 01 2010 20:26 byrnesam wrote: Heres how I like to establish my image when i arrive at a live game: First, once ive taken my seat, I put on my mirrored shades. I pull out my Moneymaker Medallion card protector and lay it down I post my BB out of position, and immediately declare "check dark" If anyone raises PF, I say "timebank dark" before it gets to me After a little hollywood so they cant get a read, ill usually say "fold dark" Then ill ask if we're at the feature table.

you forgot the ipod with white earphones, the hat/beanie with poker site representation and shirt with obscure poker reference

On February 01 2010 20:26 byrnesam wrote: Heres how I like to establish my image when i arrive at a live game: First, once ive taken my seat, I put on my mirrored shades. I pull out my Moneymaker Medallion card protector and lay it down I post my BB out of position, and immediately declare "check dark" If anyone raises PF, I say "timebank dark" before it gets to me After a little hollywood so they cant get a read, ill usually say "fold dark" Then ill ask if we're at the feature table.

rofl

On February 01 2010 20:26 byrnesam wrote: Heres how I like to establish my image when i arrive at a live game: First, once ive taken my seat, I put on my mirrored shades. I pull out my Moneymaker Medallion card protector and lay it down I post my BB out of position, and immediately declare "check dark" If anyone raises PF, I say "timebank dark" before it gets to me After a little hollywood so they cant get a read, ill usually say "fold dark" Then ill ask if we're at the feature table.

rozyboy likes this.

On February 01 2010 12:10 genjix wrote: i play live a lot for fun in casinos and home games and never have seen anyone check in the dark.

these 2 statements do not correlate

On February 01 2010 20:26 byrnesam wrote: Heres how I like to establish my image when i arrive at a live game: First, once ive taken my seat, I put on my mirrored shades. I pull out my Moneymaker Medallion card protector and lay it down I post my BB out of position, and immediately declare "check dark" If anyone raises PF, I say "timebank dark" before it gets to me After a little hollywood so they cant get a read, ill usually say "fold dark" Then ill ask if we're at the feature table.

hahahahahaha. This and another thread made my day

... i check back in the dark

you should bet in the dark
you should be pressuring ur opponents in the dark
if you take away their sense security in the dark they gon be vulnerable
its like lil kids being afraid of the boogie man

I have a friend who I frequently play HU with, common lines for us:

raise preflop dark/call dark/check flop dark/check back flop dark

sometimes all of these are done in a single hand.