Real Conspiracy(healthcare bill)

I have many friends who dont do research and belive in random theories like explosion in 911 towers and stuff.

I always say the real conspiracy is right in front of your eyes. Like bailing out Goldman Sachs by his ex-CEO using tax payer money.

There is one conspiracy happening right at this moment. The senate is forced to vote on this healthcare bill at 1am. Because they know if the senators go back home during Christmas and see that people are against this bill they wont vote for this bill!

IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIINBOU

This shows why you call 9/11 conspiracy as "random" since you are apparently clueless about politics.

This is standard procedure on holidays and it is done over and over and over when they want a quick decision on something they vote before holidays because they know they just want to go home asap.

I guess it is better that you slowly start to realize how evil the government is than to stay ignorant but this is kiddy stuff.

It's at least aginst the spirit of demacracy

yeah if stabbing a guy in the face is against the spirit of peace

On December 21 2009 00:45 Baal wrote: yeah if stabbing a guy in the face is against the spirit of peace

id make this my new quote, but i think iamalex would be super upset about that.

On December 21 2009 00:34 Baal wrote: This shows why you call 9/11 conspiracy as "random" since you are apparently clueless about politics. This is standard procedure on holidays and it is done over and over and over when they want a quick decision on something they vote before holidays because they know they just want to go home asap. I guess it is better that you slowly start to realize how evil the government is than to stay ignorant but this is kiddy stuff.

This actually potentially can cause more harm to the Nation and pour money to selected few than 911. Why do you call this Kiddy Stuff?

On December 21 2009 00:34 Baal wrote: This shows why you call 9/11 conspiracy as "random" since you are apparently clueless about politics. This is standard procedure on holidays and it is done over and over and over when they want a quick decision on something they vote before holidays because they know they just want to go home asap. I guess it is better that you slowly start to realize how evil the government is than to stay ignorant but this is kiddy stuff.

On December 21 2009 01:04 capaneo wrote: Show nested quote + On December 21 2009 00:34 Baal wrote: This shows why you call 9/11 conspiracy as "random" since you are apparently clueless about politics. This is standard procedure on holidays and it is done over and over and over when they want a quick decision on something they vote before holidays because they know they just want to go home asap. I guess it is better that you slowly start to realize how evil the government is than to stay ignorant but this is kiddy stuff. This actually potentially can cause more harm to the Nation and pour money to selected few than 911. Why do you call this Kiddy Stuff?

You clearly underestimate the repercussions of 9/11, like the re-election of George W. Bush when he were pretty much drawing dead before 9/11, afghanistan, iraq etc, it was a scam in the scale of hundreds of billions or more.

But anyway i wasnt speaking about the repercussions rather than the method, this is such a textbook democracy rape.

This is so blatant that this should be the thing that trigger people into wearing grinning masks with mustaches and start killing government officials, yet people sit silently in their homes slowly chewing this massive dump the government just fed them once again.

The whole war in Iraq and Afghan have costed around 900 billion in the past 8 years.

This health care is estimated $894 billion.
Bank bailout was around 1.2 Trillion. Around 2T if you count the Bush and prev packages as well!

And in the history of the US there has never been such a huge bill passed in such fashion. And specially with such a close close margin of vote. 60-40. And they need minimum 60 vote to pass.
Waiting for after midnight because it is required a day to be passed to allow voting?
This is really illegal. I dont really think was the intention of any of the founding fathers when they wrote the laws.

I dont see ANY difference between this and what OJ did. (assuming he kiled his wife)
This is breaking the law.

BTW I dont believe that 911 was a total surprise for every high official in US government. I actually believe the government was in it and they allow it to happen.

Passing this healthcare bill is essential to improving and fixing healthcare in America today. At the moment our healthcare system is a completely and utterly broken for profit system that puts profit in front of the overall welfare of the American people. While I would like to eventually see a mandatory public healthcare system put into place due to the efficiency and cost effectiveness that such a plan would generate, the fact remains that lobbyists who are paid for by the profits of the health care industry harness far too much power in controlling both political and public opinions to get such a plan passed. However, the bill that is about to be passed will be an enormous first step in ultimately fixing the horrible practices that our health care industry currently participates in and I, for one, am glad it is getting passed even if it is being forced through the senate on party lines alone.

Edit: The only reason this bill is being forcefully passed in such a manner is because of the insane filibuster rule in the first place that allows someone to waste EVERYONES time by talking until people give up on even voting in the damn bill in the first place. If it were not for the filibuster this bill would have been passed without nearly as much effort and would not have been subject to so many compromises and nitpickings that have caused public support to shift in the first place.

On December 21 2009 02:44 Xenocidegs wrote: Passing this healthcare bill is essential to improving and fixing healthcare in America today. At the moment our healthcare system is a completely and utterly broken for profit system that puts profit in front of the overall welfare of the American people. While I would like to eventually see a mandatory public healthcare system put into place due to the efficiency and cost effectiveness that such a plan would generate, the fact remains that lobbyists who are paid for by the profits of the health care industry harness far too much power in controlling both political and public opinions to get such a plan passed. However, the bill that is about to be passed will be an enormous first step in ultimately fixing the horrible practices that our health care industry currently participates in and I, for one, am glad it is getting passed even if it is being forced through the senate on party lines alone. Edit: The only reason this bill is being forcefully passed in such a manner is because of the insane filibuster rule in the first place that allows someone to waste EVERYONES time by talking until people give up on even voting in the damn bill in the first place. If it were not for the filibuster this bill would have been passed without nearly as much effort and would not have been subject to so many compromises and nitpickings that have caused public support to shift in the first place.

imo

Woodbrave your youtube video fails to address issues such as pre-existing healthcare conditions that people must live with and would bankrupt the average american citizen such as Diabetes, Cancer, any sort of unexpected major surgery. I agree that healthcare costs are way above what they should be but I don't believe a free market system for healthcare is optimal for society. If you compare average healthcare costs around the world you would find that most public health systems are actually very efficient and have much lower average costs for one primary reason that people overlook: preventative healthcare. Having regular checkups and physical exams allows medical professionals to catch many diseases or complications early and stop or prevent any further symptoms that would cost tens of thousands of dollars in the future if neglected.

One other point I would like to address is the fact that health insurance started in the first place due to workers in high risk job environments recognizing a serious injury would financially ruin them and thus pooled their money and thus spread out cost amongst themselves so they could "insure" that their livelihood would not be ruined in the event of physical misfortune. I view public healthcare as an extension of this belief that social welfare is greatly improved when everyone shares the overall cost of healthcare since disease and physical accidents can happen to anyone and without warning. One should not have to bankrupt their life savings because they were unable to acquire insurance due to a pre-existing condition that they were unfortunate enough to be born with or because some freak accident caused them to break their back, etc.

On December 21 2009 00:52 Bigbobm wrote: Show nested quote + On December 21 2009 00:45 Baal wrote: yeah if stabbing a guy in the face is against the spirit of peace id make this my new quote, but i think iamalex would be super upset about that.

Just put one quote next to the other. Equality.

I hate so much that taxpayers were forced to just give over soooo much money to some corporations who fucked up in the unstable economy. That's like forcing people to invest in a company with 30% of their paycheck, except they don't really get any returns. Wait no that's stealing.

On December 21 2009 01:52 capaneo wrote: The whole war in Iraq and Afghan have costed around 900 billion in the past 8 years. This health care is estimated $894 billion. Bank bailout was around 1.2 Trillion. Around 2T if you count the Bush and prev packages as well! And in the history of the US there has never been such a huge bill passed in such fashion. And specially with such a close close margin of vote. 60-40. And they need minimum 60 vote to pass. Waiting for after midnight because it is required a day to be passed to allow voting? This is really illegal. I dont really think was the intention of any of the founding fathers when they wrote the laws. I dont see ANY difference between this and what OJ did. (assuming he kiled his wife) This is breaking the law.

I think that we are at a point where most people will just roll over when the Gov does something, They've been getting more and more...(dunno how to explain)..bullyish the past decade.

Also education about the politics/actions and informed opinions very very very rarely exist. To really have an informed opinion you have to..well you cant unless you are a leet hacker i guess.

Citizens often want government to solve problems, despite its dismal track record. Such a viewpoint represents the triumph of hope over wisdom and fails to take into account that it is incentives, not intentions, that determine results. Wealth can only be created by production. Government cannot produce wealth. Its capacity is only to dispose of it with fiscal policy and erode it with monetary policy--which it does relentlessly.

The American government was constructed by our founders to protect individual rights, not destroy them. We were to be a voluntary society, not a compulsory one. The greatness of America resides in its capacity for freedom. Citizens should love their country, but never trust their government. Political power always comes at the expense of individual liberty. As a result, each of us should be keenly aware that the Constitution is our friend and that most politicians are not.

On December 21 2009 03:18 Xenocidegs wrote: Woodbrave your youtube video fails to address issues such as pre-existing healthcare conditions that people must live with and would bankrupt the average american citizen such as Diabetes, Cancer, any sort of unexpected major surgery. I agree that healthcare costs are way above what they should be but I don't believe a free market system for healthcare is optimal for society. If you compare average healthcare costs around the world you would find that most public health systems are actually very efficient and have much lower average costs for one primary reason that people overlook: preventative healthcare. Having regular checkups and physical exams allows medical professionals to catch many diseases or complications early and stop or prevent any further symptoms that would cost tens of thousands of dollars in the future if neglected. One other point I would like to address is the fact that health insurance started in the first place due to workers in high risk job environments recognizing a serious injury would financially ruin them and thus pooled their money and thus spread out cost amongst themselves so they could "insure" that their livelihood would not be ruined in the event of physical misfortune. I view public healthcare as an extension of this belief that social welfare is greatly improved when everyone shares the overall cost of healthcare since disease and physical accidents can happen to anyone and without warning. One should not have to bankrupt their life savings because they were unable to acquire insurance due to a pre-existing condition that they were unfortunate enough to be born with or because some freak accident caused them to break their back, etc.

do you have like some sick person in your family, you don't want to pay for so you want gov healthcare so they can get it for free, but not really free, just cheaper than it would of cost you?

word woodbrave

Baal and cap it seems you two are essentially arguing about the design of the same "cake" which would cause this healthcare to be nothing more than the cherry ontop - if you get what I mean - it's a really big cherry =P

On December 21 2009 00:43 DustySwedeDude wrote: It's at least aginst the spirit of demacracy

so true but such a shame we aren't a democracy eh

On December 21 2009 03:18 Xenocidegs wrote: Woodbrave your youtube video fails to address issues such as pre-existing healthcare conditions that people must live with and would bankrupt the average american citizen such as Diabetes, Cancer, any sort of unexpected major surgery.

ok then, convince me.. the spotlights on you =D
if costs are so high and we already have the federal government social insurance program medicare, how do you really think our federal government is going to somehow provide a BETTER service than it already does, now for every individual throughout the nation?

On December 21 2009 03:18 Xenocidegs wrote: I agree that healthcare costs are way above what they should be but I don't believe a free market system for healthcare is optimal for society.

may I ask if you think that the reason costs are so high is because of the free market?

On December 21 2009 03:18 Xenocidegs wrote: If you compare average healthcare costs around the world you would find that most public health systems are actually very efficient and have much lower average costs for one primary reason that people overlook: preventative healthcare.

you would also find the quality to often times be worse

[edit]
I try to never edit after someone else makes a post after me, but I feel I should clarify the word quality before taken out of context.
By quality I mainly mean the speed/efficiency in which ppl w/ issues small and large are seen, taken care of and dealt with

On December 21 2009 03:18 Xenocidegs wrote: Having regular checkups and physical exams allows medical professionals to catch many diseases or complications early and stop or prevent any further symptoms that would cost tens of thousands of dollars in the future if neglected.

correct me if I'm wrong... is this statement why you are promoting national healthcare? so everyone in America can get more check ups?
Can you imagine the chaos your statement combined with your government healthcare answer will lead to? especially once physician and Doctor salaries get cut and everything becomes rationed? o.0

On December 21 2009 03:18 Xenocidegs wrote: One other point I would like to address is the fact that health insurance started in the first place due to workers in high risk job environments recognizing a serious injury would financially ruin them and thus pooled their money and thus spread out cost amongst themselves so they could "insure" that their livelihood would not be ruined in the event of physical misfortune. I view public healthcare as an extension of this belief that social welfare is greatly improved when everyone shares the overall cost of healthcare since disease and physical accidents can happen to anyone and without warning. One should not have to bankrupt their life savings because they were unable to acquire insurance due to a pre-existing condition that they were unfortunate enough to be born with or because some freak accident caused them to break their back, etc.

if national healthcare becomes a reality, what do you think is going to happen to ones life savings? Especially when the governments motto is we need to spend more to get out of this mess. What is it they are spending?
I mean who do you think is really going to pay for this service? Obama? the next Bush? You don't really think this is going to be some free and a peachy keen thing do you? and if you reply, keep that word you mentioned earlier "bankrupt" in mind throughout ur post

incrementalism ftw