Folding Axo preflop

How bout you ask your coach this question?

k2o4 is a genius i would just blindly listen to his wisdom

On July 26 2009 22:12 NewbSaibot wrote: How bout you ask your coach this question?

I'm not her coach, I'm her boyfriend, which means she doesn't listen to me =)

by limping your sb you're basically playing your hand for face value, if u miss the flop you can take a stab when u miss, but your opponent has pretty much any 2 (given that they dont raise when u complete).

You raise in the sb to steal the bb and to build a pot if he does call. Even if he does call with a better ace, he's going to miss the flop so often that cbetting the flop will let you win the pot, and you'll end up winning more than if u just limped. Ax suited is generally a decent hand to raise from the co and btn as well.

You'll win more money in the long run from stealing the bb with A rag then you ever will limping. Just from him folding his bb and also from him calling and wiffing flops where u can take it down with a continuation bet on the flop.

lololol talk about airing your dirty laundry in public!

but srsly

its better to just raise or fold because your hand doesn't flop well, if you flop a 3 and the other person bets, how do you feel?

On July 26 2009 22:13 acdawg712 wrote: k2o4 is a genius i would just blindly listen to his wisdom

I just have problem blindly listening to any wisdom...

On July 26 2009 22:17 Night2o1 wrote: lololol talk about airing your dirty laundry in public! but srsly its better to just raise or fold because your hand doesn't flop well, if you flop a 3 and the other person bets, how do you feel?

I will then just fold. I just wanna see the flop and I am on the small blind.

It's really, really bad.

It's a bit complicated why though and I'm playing right now so I don't feel like explaining all of it.

theres plenty of hands that are good to limp the small blind with, bcuz as you say, its cheap. but i dont think stuff like A3o is good bcuz youll almost never flop a hand you like. yes if you flop a 3 youre ahead of AK, but its not like you can profitably value bet it or anything bcuz theres always going to be overcards and then youre out of position. so with your pair of 3s, you'd pretty much be playing a guessing game if you want to call down (since we cant value bet it this is your only option of showing down your hand unless it happens to check all the way down which is unlikely in a multiway pot).

I forsee that this will be the first in many posts by zara like this asking whether what I told her makes sense.

On July 26 2009 22:20 zaragyemo wrote: Show nested quote + On July 26 2009 22:17 Night2o1 wrote: lololol talk about airing your dirty laundry in public! but srsly its better to just raise or fold because your hand doesn't flop well, if you flop a 3 and the other person bets, how do you feel? I will then just fold. I just wanna see the flop and I am on the small blind.

lol

On July 26 2009 22:27 k2o4 wrote: I forsee that this will be the first in many posts by zara like this asking whether what I told her makes sense.

I just have to check what k2o4 is saying is the way to go about it. I notice that everyone has different ways of playing their hand, some profitable and some not - I just wanted to know the best move to make. And this has been helpful. Like k2o4 said, I am sure there will be many more situations where I will be asking for advice from you guys.

If u raise and the guy calls and the flop is A high, i probably wouldn't be playing a big pot, but there is still some value to be had from smaller pair and yes sometimes your opponent will have you outkicked but thats just the way it goes. But if u are playing opponents that overvalue their top pair like hands you could be looking to win a lot of money when u do happen to see a 33Q flop with A3 when ur opponent holds AQ.

i actually think your logic is sound, but i dunno anymore. i used to be a winner at poker but now i just blow

when you limp, you also encourage him to raise with worse hands, but then again you're not defining your hand so basically you're just guessing if you're ahead or not when he raises in the bb. so raising in the sb makes the hand easier to play.

so basically, raising in the sb makes the hand easier to play, ie he calls you cont bet then shut down if he calls etc. or he 3 bets your raise pre and you can fold pretty quick etc

it's total fish mentality btw

but then again, its not 'optimal'

On July 26 2009 22:31 patmcgroin wrote: i actually think your logic is sound, but i dunno anymore. i used to be a winner at poker but now i just blow

lol!

On July 26 2009 22:31 SpeedyJack wrote: it's total fish mentality btw

I figured,just wanted to confirm. And I am a fish at the moment, so I guess it comes naturally to me to think like that.

I can pretty much never think of a time where limping A3 in the SB is ever good. But there are some situations where I can see limping Axo in the SB - Like say CO/Bu limp and I'm in the SB w/ A9o and I know these 2 never fold after limping but they limp a huge range, then I'm glad to limp A9o cause I'm gonna be out kicking them a shitload and I know they will make it easy on me.

Gotta remember we're talking .01/.02 so there's some room for this type of thinking. But A3o is never good cause even if you hit top pair you're always in a shitty spot. While A9o you can at least outkick people, A3o you pretty much never make money unless you get lucky and set someone up on a 33x flop or you hit 2pair when AK hit's TpTk, etc.

BUT - you have to be good at postflop play and playing OOP to take advantage of this, so most people really are better off just avoiding the situation all together since they'll lose more money than they win.

Limping A/3 from the sb in a multi way pot where your getting good odds on your money isn't a bad thing if it's suited. But if that's not the case and you limp it you're probably seeing a 3way+pot with A/3, now how do you know those players have stronger A/X combinations? What if the boards 3/6/10 rainbow do you really think your 3 is good here? It may very well be, but it's going to be an extremely difficult hand to play OOP in a multiway pot which is why it's better to avoid these types of hands especially at the limit your playing.

I think the worst part of limping the sb is that you are oop no matter what, it's way harder to get value and way harder to put your opponent on a range.

On July 26 2009 22:30 zaragyemo wrote: Show nested quote + On July 26 2009 22:27 k2o4 wrote: I forsee that this will be the first in many posts by zara like this asking whether what I told her makes sense. I just have to check what k2o4 is saying is the way to go about it. I notice that everyone has different ways of playing their hand, some profitable and some not - I just wanted to know the best move to make. And this has been helpful. Like k2o4 said, I am sure there will be many more situations where I will be asking for advice from you guys.

Just FYI there is no blanket best move it's player dependent, that said at .01/.02 the best move is fold because you will find way way way better spots. Although if it's a suited ace that has wheel potential and your getting like 8:1 it's not a bad thing to call, but play the hand very carefully if the bare ace hits.

Zara just asked me "what is oop" and she said it "oooooop" hehehe

On July 26 2009 22:43 Cooper83 wrote: Show nested quote + On July 26 2009 22:30 zaragyemo wrote:   On July 26 2009 22:27 k2o4 wrote: I forsee that this will be the first in many posts by zara like this asking whether what I told her makes sense. I just have to check what k2o4 is saying is the way to go about it. I notice that everyone has different ways of playing their hand, some profitable and some not - I just wanted to know the best move to make. And this has been helpful. Like k2o4 said, I am sure there will be many more situations where I will be asking for advice from you guys. Just FYI there is no blanket best move it's player dependent, that said at .01/.02 the best move is fold because you will find way way way better spots. Although if it's a suited ace that has wheel potential and your getting like 8:1 it's not a bad thing to call, but play the hand very carefully if the bare ace hits.

Suited aces are different, I think I'd pretty much always say to at least complete with Axs in the SB on .01/.02 if you're 100bb deep with at least 1 person. Axo is where the debate comes in imo

Well, I think I got the consensus that I should either fold or raise but never limp. Thank you all.

On July 26 2009 22:49 zaragyemo wrote: Well, I think I got the consensus that I should either fold or raise but never limp. Thank you all.

but is the consensus right?

On July 26 2009 22:44 k2o4 wrote: Zara just asked me "what is oop" and she said it "oooooop" hehehe

I say it like scoop when I read it to myself in my head. Less syllables son, the new generation of poker players is more efficient.

On July 26 2009 22:54 patmcgroin wrote: Show nested quote + On July 26 2009 22:49 zaragyemo wrote: Well, I think I got the consensus that I should either fold or raise but never limp. Thank you all. but is the consensus right?

I guess I just to play those hands to figure out if it is right or wrong.

bleh, dont listen to consensuses.. think about your opponent!

If you limp SB and he raises BB every time and cbets the flop it is NOT a good situation for you because you have to either fold prf or fold very often on the flop. And even when you flop an Ace you don't know what to do.

If you raise SB and your opponent folds 90% of the time it is obviously good to raise.

If you raise SB and your opponent starts giving you shit either prf or on the flop it is probably best to fold.

It is all opponent dependent!

If your opponent always checks his BB and is passive (doesnt cbet often enough) it is great to limp. Why not? We get 3-to-1 to see a flop and we have a pretty strong (showdownable) hand.

This thread defines why I should have pulled a Yugless.

Limping the described situation is bad, very bad. In fact so bad that no good can ever come of it and what does come you probably won't enjoy. It's not fun being ooooop.

On July 26 2009 23:02 nixxxbg wrote: bleh, dont listen to consensuses.. think about your opponent! If you limp SB and he raises BB every time and cbets the flop it is NOT a good situation for you because you have to either fold prf or fold very often on the flop. And even when you flop an Ace you don't know what to do. If you raise SB and your opponent folds 90% of the time it is obviously good to raise. If you raise SB and your opponent starts giving you shit either prf or on the flop it is probably best to fold. It is all opponent dependent! If your opponent always checks his BB and is passive (doesnt cbet often enough) it is great to limp. Why not? We get 3-to-1 to see a flop and we have a pretty strong (showdownable) hand.

What you suggest is not bad but don't forget this is NL2 we are discussing and most of the opponents are not thinking at all. They are the ones raising 29o because poker is fun. Keep things as simple as possible and work on learning the fundamentals of playing ABC poker. The more situations you get yourself into where the correct play isn't obvious, the more you will find yourself making mistakes.

On July 26 2009 22:13 acdawg712 wrote: k2o4 is a genius but i would just blindly listen to wisdom

On July 26 2009 23:18 rS.Wisdom[9] wrote: Show nested quote + On July 26 2009 22:13 acdawg712 wrote: k2o4 is a genius but i would just blindly listen to wisdom

LOL, just hilarious.

Listen to your man, female.

On July 26 2009 23:29 Cooper83 wrote: Show nested quote + On July 26 2009 23:18 rS.Wisdom[9] wrote:   On July 26 2009 22:13 acdawg712 wrote: k2o4 is a genius but i would just blindly listen to wisdom LOL, just hilarious.

hahahaha

On July 26 2009 23:07 Bejamin1 wrote: This thread defines why I should have pulled a Yugless.

so true, even i'm giving what i think is semi-decent advice

On July 26 2009 22:05 zaragyemo wrote: So, k2o4 tells me that I should fold Ace rag preflop in most situations. I feel differently... so wad u think? Suppose I have A3, and I am on the small blind. (I am playing .01/.02). So logically I would think it is a good decision to limp here and call with .01 to see the flop.

i should preface this by saying that the majority of the time, k2o4 is definitely right and limping A3o from the SB will generally be not so good.

but basically this question is going to be the first in a long line of questions where the answer is "it depends". if there's 6 limpers before it gets to you, i don't think anyone would fault you for completing the SB with A3o (or just about anything) at 1c/2c. if it's folded all the way around to your SB (which i think would be a rarity at 1c/2c) it's by far better to raise/fold and either is fine.

it's hard to give a thorough answer explaining why but as you play more you'll just "get it" eventually. but basically the discounted price you have to pay from the SB is more than offset by being oop postflop which will lead to a lot of situations, particularly with a hand like A3o, where you won't know what to do.

On July 27 2009 00:45 bigredhoss wrote: Show nested quote + On July 26 2009 22:05 zaragyemo wrote: So, k2o4 tells me that I should fold Ace rag preflop in most situations. I feel differently... so wad u think? Suppose I have A3, and I am on the small blind. (I am playing .01/.02). So logically I would think it is a good decision to limp here and call with .01 to see the flop. i should preface this by saying that the majority of the time, k2o4 is definitely right and limping A3o from the SB will generally be not so good. but basically this question is going to be the first in a long line of questions where the answer is "it depends". if there's 6 limpers before it gets to you, i don't think anyone would fault you for completing the SB with A3o (or just about anything) at 1c/2c. if it's folded all the way around to your SB (which i think would be a rarity at 1c/2c) it's by far better to raise/fold and either is fine. it's hard to give a thorough answer explaining why but as you play more you'll just "get it" eventually. but basically the discounted price you have to pay from the SB is more than offset by being oop postflop which will lead to a lot of situations, particularly with a hand like A3o, where you won't know what to do.

Thanks.

listen to bret! he cannot lie! lol