On June 08 2018 22:11 Loco wrote:
depression is regarded as a weakness of character and unmanly in modern western society
You are one purple hair away from going full SJW here lol.
pretty much every single culture in the world through history stimatizes male weakness, its not a problem isolated to western white cis heternormative capitalistic patriarchy.
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Liquid`Drone Norway. Jun 09 2018 10:25. Posts 3093
What? Scandinavians don't have the highest suicide rates in the world. Where do you have that from? It's not remotely close to true.
Sweden has the highest rate of any scandinavian country, but it's still below the OECD average. Norway and Denmark are in 102nd and 105th place respectively. African, Asian and Eastern European countries top the list, with different main reasons for different countries. Like Guyana (not african, but third world) has aids listed as a significant reason. Kazakhstan has 'School bullying, Absence or loss of values, Falling standards of social behavior, Alienation" as main reasons. For most of Eastern Europe it's tied together with Alcoholism. South Korea and Japan (10th and 26th) seem to be more in line with 'feeling of personal failure' type of explanation.
So like, I don't actually agree that it's about hierarchy, nor really about capitalism. Reasonings seem to differ greatly based on which region of the world you're examining. Disease, drug/alcohol abuse and being social outcasts seems like consistent factors though. But that male ratios everywhere are 4 times higher than female rates back up the idea that there's a relation between willingness to talk about depression/emotions and suicide (and that this is one of the actual examples of what I would describe as 'toxic masculinity' ).
But your idea that Scandinavian countries top suicide charts is.. completely wrong. You're not the first person I've seen make the claim that 'Norway's suicide rate is among the highest in the world', but I have no idea where this myth originated from, because it has never been the case.
"Europe is the most suicidal region in the entire world, while the Eastern Mediterranean the least."
I noticed Germany and the U.K. way down on the list and all the Eastern European countries higher on the list.
Eastern Mediterranean countries:
Cyprus
Greece
Lebanon
Syria
Palestine
Israel
Turkey
Egypt
Jordan
I've read a lot about Ikaria, Greece and it's hard to imagine people offing themselves there. I look at some of the other places though and think they are underreporting due to Islam. One of those reality distortion things where they don't acknowledge. Or, a strong belief in Islam is a suicide deterrent (besides suicide bombings and virgins and all that). I think that's why France is higher on the list. It's a culture of cynical atheists.
"A 2014 overview pointed at the economic crisis' years (2007-2008) as a period from which suicide rates surged globally."
Not surprising. The 2007-2008 crises was a direct result of Neoliberal economics. Ivory Coast workers working under inhumane conditions to pick coffee beans is also a result of Neoliberal economics. I was considering offing myself working in a pizza place. Imagine working literally all day picking coffee beans for virtually no money and then having to wake up and do it all again every day. There's no exit except for maybe one.
"The study was about China's suicide rates which have been declining instead: in the 1990s China was among the countries with highest suicide rates in the world (above 20 per 100,000), but by the global economic crisis they kept dropping as significantly (as they were by the end of 1990s) with the main force having been migration from rural to urban areas."
China is pretty atheist as well. So, you have all these Chinese rice farmers making next to nothing out in the fields all day long picking rice which is horrible work. China could also be lying on the data.
"Per recent WHO releases, challenges represented by social stigma, the taboo to openly discuss suicide, and low availability of data are still to date obstacles leading to poor data quality for both suicide and suicide attempts. In much of the world, suicide is stigmatized and condemned for religious or cultural reasons. In some countries, suicidal behaviour is a criminal offence punishable by law. Suicide is therefore often a secretive act surrounded by taboo, and may be unrecognized, misclassified or deliberately hidden in official records of death."
So, we should take any suicide data with some skepticism and cynicism. If anything suicide and mental illness are UNDER REPORTED and still misunderstood.
Drone,
All the reasons you listed for suicide are related to hierarchy and capitalism except for aids. For me, hierarchy, capitalism, depression, anxiety and alcoholism were all inter-related. It was tied into junk values, lack of connections, shitty job, lack of respect/status, disconnect from nature, and no hope/no future which goes back to hierarchy, capitalism, depression, anxiety, and alcoholism. Why is someone a social outcast? Well, typically they don't fit in with any hierarchy or corporate structure. I know I never did. So, I get depressed and I get anxious and I drink more and do drugs. The more I become a social outcast the more I drink and do drugs and the more I drink and do drugs the more I become a social outcast. The whole reason I am a social outcast is because of hierarchies and capitalism. I just can't seem to fit a square peg into a round hole and I can't seem to create any art that liberates me. I am a tortured soul and a suicide story in the making. As I learn more I still have hope for a better future but always in the back of my head there is something that tells me I will probably kill myself at 45 or 55. In that case I wouldn't solely blame hierarchies or capitalism because I obviously would be very much depressed but why would I be depressed? There would be factors that I learned about in outpatient bipolar rehab like sleeping too much and not connecting with people which is a loop with depression. The way to break that cycle is to sleep less, do more, connect with people. However, the root cause of my depression and suicidal ideations is always the world, hierarchies and capitalism. It's a good thing I'm "manly" enough or "unmanly" enough to talk about my depression and suicidal ideations with professionals and friends with similar problems or else I would have been dead long ago.
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Liquid`Drone Norway. Jun 09 2018 15:40. Posts 3093
I agree that some of the reasonings for suicide are related to hierarchical structures. Bullying most certainly is. Alienation, sure. But I don't think you can really make the claim that alcoholism or drug abuse are caused by capitalism or hierarchical structures, and these seem strongly related to suicidal tendencies..
Anyway, one page ago you linked to Christiania, the anarchist collective in Copenhagen. I've been there several times. We also have a similar thing, just smaller scale, in Trondheim. The main commonality of those places in my experience? They are absolutely rife with drug and alcohol abuse. The main reason why people visit either place is to buy drugs, and the people who live there use way more than average. Literally the previous time I was at a party at Svartlamon, the police+ambulance came right around the time we were leaving the party - because the guy who lived one floor above us had killed himself while we were partying. I'm somewhere between a pragmatic social democrat and an idealistic socialist anarchist, and I've had issues with both alcohol and drug abuse. I mean yes you can claim that 'but it's the hierarchical structures permeating through society that alienate people which makes the same group of people a) hooked on drugs/alcohol b) enter anarchist/socialist collectives c) suicidal', but that seems hard to back up by data. From looking at which countries are more or less suicidal, I just don't see 'more or less capitalist' as a defining trait.
Also, while 'real' socialism aims for the classless society, that's not the equivalent of completely abolished hierarchy. When answering 'what's gonna motivate the best and the brightest to be the best and the brightest when there's no monetary incentive', giving people recognition for their feats is highlighted. People in a socialist society could still compete in sports. A brilliant musician or author would get recognition for their contributions. You wouldn't become materially wealthier through being the best, but you'd still be recognized as being the best. And you'd still get more laid. I recognize that competitiveness is a drive in humans. So is cooperativeness. I want to highlight the latter, not the former, but I still enjoy friendly competition in sports or games. I don't want to organize society around competition, but I do want people to get recognition for doing good things.
Like, I don't actually know to what degree monsanto and patenting seeds and shit like that has been responsible for Indian farmers committing suicide. I just have a peripheral understanding of that whole subject matter, so it's fair if you consider this a hypothetical. But in the case where that is an accurate description, then this would be a case of capitalism causing suicide. But Lithuanians drinking an average of 15.2 liters of pure alcohol per year, that's not capitalism. I'd never describe the states comprising the soviet union as socialist or free of hierarchy - but I'd also never describe them as 'more capitalist' or 'more hierarchical' than the USA. They still have more problems with alcoholism and with suicide than the US does. I'm not saying it's a non-factor, but I can't see 'capitalism' or 'hierarchy' as a defining trait when explaining suicide rates around the world.
On June 08 2018 22:11 Loco wrote:
depression is regarded as a weakness of character and unmanly in modern western society
You are one purple hair away from going full SJW here lol.
pretty much every single culture in the world through history stimatizes male weakness, its not a problem isolated to western white cis heternormative capitalistic patriarchy.
Status quo warrior versus social justice warrior: round 42!
My post had nothing to do with some vague universal notion of "male weakness", but precise examples of male gender norms which have varied in different cultures throughout history, even in the modern West.
fuck I should just sell some of my Pokemon cards, if no one stakes that is what I will have to do - lostaccount
Also when we blame deaths on socialism its because they starve to death, not because of some bullshit indirect correlation
Get the argument right first and then you can actually move on to the cherry-picking if you want. The argument was that mental illness has increased fairly consistently (and for some conditions quite drastically) over time since the 30s. Not that suicide rates have have sharply and consistently gone up. You posted a picture of (completed) suicide rates, not global mental illness. Surely you're capable of understanding that one is simply a risk factor for the other, and not the same thing? (Btw, that's not "a lot of fluctuations" in suicide rates)
there is a stronger correlation between internet penetration and [poor mental health] than economic policies and [poor mental health] [...] blabla Scandinavian countries
Oh really?
It is very much about capitalism, hierarchy in and of itself makes people sick, and capitalism has drastic inequality built into it. In the words of the brilliant neuroscientist and stress-health expert Robert Sapolsky, “It isn’t [just] about being poor, it is about feeling poor.” It's something few people realize but relative poverty or deprivation is a massive driver of mental health issues separate from extreme poverty.
fuck I should just sell some of my Pokemon cards, if no one stakes that is what I will have to do - lostaccount
On June 09 2018 14:40 Liquid`Drone wrote:
I agree that some of the reasonings for suicide are related to hierarchical structures. Bullying most certainly is. Alienation, sure. But I don't think you can really make the claim that alcoholism or drug abuse are caused by capitalism or hierarchical structures, and these seem strongly related to suicidal tendencies.
Anyway, one page ago you linked to Christiania, the anarchist collective in Copenhagen. I've been there several times. We also have a similar thing, just smaller scale, in Trondheim. The main commonality of those places in my experience? They are absolutely rife with drug and alcohol abuse. The main reason why people visit either place is to buy drugs, and the people who live there use way more than average. Literally the previous time I was at a party at Svartlamon, the police+ambulance came right around the time we were leaving the party - because the guy who lived one floor above us had killed himself while we were partying. I'm somewhere between a pragmatic social democrat and an idealistic socialist anarchist, and I've had issues with both alcohol and drug abuse. I mean yes you can claim that 'but it's the hierarchical structures permeating through society that alienate people which makes the same group of people a) hooked on drugs/alcohol b) enter anarchist/socialist collectives c) suicidal', but that seems hard to back up by data. From looking at which countries are more or less suicidal, I just don't see 'more or less capitalist' as a defining trait.
Also, while 'real' socialism aims for the classless society, that's not the equivalent of completely abolished hierarchy. When answering 'what's gonna motivate the best and the brightest to be the best and the brightest when there's no monetary incentive', giving people recognition for their feats is highlighted. People in a socialist society could still compete in sports. A brilliant musician or author would get recognition for their contributions. You wouldn't become materially wealthier through being the best, but you'd still be recognized as being the best. And you'd still get more laid. I recognize that competitiveness is a drive in humans. So is cooperativeness. I want to highlight the latter, not the former, but I still enjoy friendly competition in sports or games. I don't want to organize society around competition, but I do want people to get recognition for doing good things.
Like, I don't actually know to what degree monsanto and patenting seeds and shit like that has been responsible for Indian farmers committing suicide. I just have a peripheral understanding of that whole subject matter, so it's fair if you consider this a hypothetical. But in the case where that is an accurate description, then this would be a case of capitalism causing suicide. But Lithuanians drinking an average of 15.2 liters of pure alcohol per year, that's not capitalism. I'd never describe the states comprising the soviet union as socialist or free of hierarchy - but I'd also never describe them as 'more capitalist' or 'more hierarchical' than the USA. They still have more problems with alcoholism and with suicide than the US does. I'm not saying it's a non-factor, but I can't see 'capitalism' or 'hierarchy' as a defining trait when explaining suicide rates around the world.
I don't know much about Lithuania but 15.2 L of pure alcohol is not even 1.5 drinks/day. So, the average Lithuanian is a moderate drinker. Remember that globalization also includes the Russian oligarchy.
According to Onut? Davidonien?, director of the State Mental Health Center, a major reason behind the dramatic rise in suicides over the last decade is the economic and social transition. This can be linked to the Russian economic crisis of 1998 which was prolonging the phenomenon in Lithuania.
Liquid`Drone Norway. Jun 09 2018 16:50. Posts 3093
when the average is a moderate drinker (the site I got the number from said 2.7 drinks per day though, guess their drink is half the size of your drink. I think they went with 0.33 liters of beer as 1) then there a whole lot of people who drink way more than that.
the other point is more valid. I simplify things if I claim that the high number of suicide is only about alcoholism.
On June 09 2018 14:40 Liquid`Drone wrote:
I can't see 'capitalism' or 'hierarchy' as a defining trait when explaining suicide rates around the world.
That's because they are not "defining traits", one's a mode of production and the other is a structure or a mode of organization. We don't judge anything by "degrees of hierarchy" or "degrees of capitalism". They're omnipresent and foundational, and the world's empires have done everything to make sure we never get a proper standard for comparison by being able to look at a thriving socialist country.
The traits would be the various stressors and health markers they engender, which would be directly affected by how regulated or unregulated the economy is and how democratic or unequal it is. If you look at actual trends based on these traits, taking into account geographical differences and how affected by colonialism they have been, and avoided zooming in on one particular outlier, then there's a very clear picture there. Lituania might significantly prefer booze over other self-medication methods, but they're not in the top 10 of most depressed and anxious countries according to the latest WHO report, and they don't show up in the top 10 for heaviest alcohol and drug use either.
fuck I should just sell some of my Pokemon cards, if no one stakes that is what I will have to do - lostaccount
Yeah, I'm an alcoholic I really shouldn't be commenting on what "normal" drinking is.
On alcoholism:
AA says we drink because of a "spiritual malady." I would say that is accurate but too much AA. I drank because of a depression and anxiety (loneliness, alienation, etc.) that was caused by the world I lived in but I was already alcoholic and prone to depression and anxiety. It was a loop. There was more factors than just that but depression and alcoholism is the simplest loop. I drank because I was depressed and I was depressed because I drank. Well, what is the root cause of my depression?
I can't bear the world that I live in. Why? I just lost a bunch of business, I don't like my job, I don't like where I live, etc. Why? Corporate hierarchies, bribery, corruption, my bosses are manipulating and exploiting me, I have to manipulate and exploit my customers and my underlings, where I live is one giant strip mall filled with bourgeois poshlust, I have no friends that aren't a customer or alcoholic, et al.
So, how do I break the loop?
Well, to simplify it I stop drinking and take medication but that didn't do it. I drank again and I drank again and I drank again. Ok, let's leave the shithole I'm living in and go to Paris. Hey, this world IS bearable. In fact, I love it. In fact, I'm in love with it. Life is great! Then I am back to work at an even shittier job and I can't medicate myself with alcohol and it is time to kill myself..... This could go on for a while so I will just summarize and say the biggest hurdle I have to get over is the idea that the world is unbearable. I don't get depressed or want to drink when life is bearable. So, what do I have to do? I have to find meaningful work, I have to connect to people, I have to get new values, I have to workout childhood trauma, I have to acquire respect/status in healthy achievable ways, I have to take walks in the forest with my dog, I need things to be hopeful about in the future. Capitalism does not care about these goals. Furthermore capitalism does not care about the earth that we inhabit. Capitalism simply wants to acquire profit and growth. Not just a decent amount. THE MOST POSSIBLE BY ANY MEANS NECESSARY. Many of the leaders in this space share these goals and this IS something that does trickle down the hierarchy.
On June 09 2018 14:40 Liquid`Drone wrote:
I can't see 'capitalism' or 'hierarchy' as a defining trait when explaining suicide rates around the world.
That's because they are not "defining traits", one's a mode of production and the other is a structure or a mode of organization. We don't judge anything by "degrees of hierarchy" or "degrees of capitalism". The traits would be the various stressors and negative health markers they engender, which would be directly affected by how regulated or unregulated the economy is. If you look at actual trends, taking into account geographical differences and how affected by colonialism they have been, and avoided zooming in on one particular outlier, then there's a very clear picture there. Lituania might significantly prefer booze over other self-medication methods, but they're not in the top 10 of most depressed and anxious countries according to the latest WHO report, and they don't show up in the top 10 for heaviest alcohol and drug use either.
The problem started when Russia started privatizing and the oligarchs gained power. There was an increase in suicides during an economic crisis. Russia's "capitalism" is worse than capitalism.
Are you saying it is likely that a large amount of mental health is being undiagnosed or unreported in Lithuania?
I have no reason to think it's more under-reported there than everywhere else. I'm just saying they don't appear to be much of an outlier when you're looking at global alcohol and drug consumption, i.e. when they're accounted for together.
fuck I should just sell some of my Pokemon cards, if no one stakes that is what I will have to do - lostaccount
Are you attributing the under-reporting solely to toxic masculinity? It would be interesting to look at the most under reported countries and the cultures there.
I am not. Lack of trust in the system is likely another big factor. My partner and I have never seen a mental health professional, she is especially distrustful of their competence. And of course, you need to have access to be diagnosed, many poor and disabled people don't have it.
fuck I should just sell some of my Pokemon cards, if no one stakes that is what I will have to do - lostaccount
Interesting. Especially with your history of severe anxiety and depression to the point of leaving school. I have a lot of questions I would like to ask out of curiosity but the one I am interested in the most is:
How is your depression and anxiety today and what do you attribute that to?
Maybe another:
What do you think of someone who is as fucked up as me taking medications and seeing a therapist? Once I ended up in the psych ward and they got their hands on me there didn't seem like any other route. My preference would actually be to get off all drugs UNTIL I start showing signs of excessive mania or psychosis and then taking drugs if needed. The hand tremors from my lithium can be particularly annoying and there is no telling what this stuff is doing to my body long term. I would still like to see a therapist though. My insurance covers it and I feel like it's worth the time.
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Liquid`Drone Norway. Jun 09 2018 21:06. Posts 3093
On June 09 2018 14:40 Liquid`Drone wrote:
I can't see 'capitalism' or 'hierarchy' as a defining trait when explaining suicide rates around the world.
That's because they are not "defining traits", one's a mode of production and the other is a structure or a mode of organization. We don't judge anything by "degrees of hierarchy" or "degrees of capitalism". They're omnipresent and foundational, and the world's empires have done everything to make sure we never get a proper standard for comparison by being able to look at a thriving socialist country.
Isn't this somewhat in conflict with the previous post where 'increased inequality corresponds with increased mental problems?
I mean Norway nationalized it's oil. Putting that in a pension fund for the entire population with clearly defined rules for how much can be used from this fund on a yearly basis is arguably the single most crucial policy element in defining norway's 'success', and it's clearly a 'more socialist' policy than what privatizing the oil fortune would have been. Yes, we're still fundamentally capitalist, yes I agree that it's impossible to find a proper standard of comparison between capitalist and communist countries. (Which is also why I'm skeptical towards concluding that something is clearly the effect of living in a capitalist country - while I'm inclined to agree from a deducting pov, I want data to make conclusions.) But I basically mean that, one of the negative side effects of capitalism is that resources virtually always end up being unevenly distributed. There are other, more complex problems, relating to the psychology of the people living within the society, clearly environmental concerns, etc., but I think inequality is one element of 'negative consequences of capitalism'. Then I think it's fair to consider a capitalistic society that takes certain measures to reduce the degree of inequality, through say, commonly owned public resources, focused public education and health care, is 'less capitalistic' than one that takes no such measures. I think a society that rewards participation and not just winning in sports will to some degree be 'less hierarchical' than societies where they only reward winning. Avoiding grades in school, or at the very least starting the grading process at a later point in time, will have a similar effect. There's a lot of possible policy choices to be made even within the framework of a capitalist, hierarchical society that can make society suffer less from the failures of capitalism and to make hierarchies that organically form within a capitalistic framework be less detrimental, or to make them less likely to organically form.
And, yeah, I was lucky to be on salary and have great health insurance when I went into the psych ward. I was lucky to move to Pittsburgh which had one of the best psychiatric hospitals in the country. They wouldn't let me in until I ended up in their psych ward. So, that was lucky that I had an event at the right time and my friend took me there. I was lucky that Pennsylvania has a very generous Medicare (welfare) program and lucky that UPMC accepted it.
One thing to note as well is that when I used to get depressed I wouldn't even know what it was I would just feel that way. I certainly wasn't going to talk to a doctor about it. That was pretty much my life up until 30. In fact, I didn't see even a dentist or a doctor in my 20s. I certainly wasn't going to talk to a shrink. The first time I talked to a therapist she asked if I was having suicidal thoughts. I went into a panic as I constantly was having suicidal thoughts but told her no. That was a breakthrough the first time I told a therapist I had not only suicidal thoughts but homicidal and genocidal thoughts as well.
I can feel for the people through out the world that can't afford it or don't trust it. Honestly, for me, more psychiatric care has been kind of shit than helpful. I was mis-diagnosed multiple times and mis-treated multiple times if my current diagnosis is even correct. I don't know though. Ever since going through UPMC my life has gotten better in regards to my mental illness. It's crazy though. I heard the term "toxic masculinity" before but never knew about the link to psychological problems. I am a pretty classic case although I've never used violence against a woman. I have manipulated women. I said I never sought power over women but I certainly have. Not with violence but with money and status. I don't adhere to any of those norms now and surprise, surprise I don't experience any of those psychological problems except depression on occasion. That's eye opening. The message needs to be passed along somehow. Instead the Michael Jordans and Jocko Willinks and Dan Bilzerians of the world are beloved and embraced. That is the story that people see.
On June 09 2018 19:40 RiKD wrote:
Interesting. Especially with your history of severe anxiety and depression to the point of leaving school. I have a lot of questions I would like to ask out of curiosity but the one I am interested in the most is:
How is your depression and anxiety today and what do you attribute that to?
Maybe another:
What do you think of someone who is as fucked up as me taking medications and seeing a therapist? Once I ended up in the psych ward and they got their hands on me there didn't seem like any other route. My preference would actually be to get off all drugs UNTIL I start showing signs of excessive mania or psychosis and then taking drugs if needed. The hand tremors from my lithium can be particularly annoying and there is no telling what this stuff is doing to my body long term. I would still like to see a therapist though. My insurance covers it and I feel like it's worth the time.
I don't really have any symptoms of depression anymore. I had panic disorder but I haven't had a panic attack in many years, I only came close a few times during high stress events. My anxiety is mild and very manageable, especially in the last couple years since I've been eating very well and exercising. I was once very agoraphobic and now I often go to shows and I have no issue standing in the middle of a crowd. Speaking of which, you might enjoy this, it was the best show of my life (I pop up at 6:30 filming with my phone ):
I think it's important that you keep seeing a therapist and drugs should only be reduced (and eventually maybe removed) slowly and carefully if you feel like they're more problematic than helpful. I'm living on the fringes of society and my interactions with people are very brief and minimal, so I don't need drugs to function, but it would likely be another story if I was forced into a shitty job I hate. I'd say I attribute those improvements to becoming more spontaneous and less worried about status and how I appear to others. My desire to learn and oppose that which caused these problems has been crucial. I did a good job sourcing material that would eventually lead me to a greater understanding of myself and society, what I have failed at is creating new connections with people, so I still have symptoms of alienation that I'm trying to overcome.
fuck I should just sell some of my Pokemon cards, if no one stakes that is what I will have to do - lostaccount
On June 09 2018 16:49 Loco wrote:
[QUOTE]On June 09 2018 14:40 Liquid`Drone wrote:
I can't see 'capitalism' or 'hierarchy' as a defining trait when explaining suicide rates around the world.
That's because they are not "defining traits", one's a mode of production and the other is a structure or a mode of organization. We don't judge anything by "degrees of hierarchy" or "degrees of capitalism". They're omnipresent and foundational, and the world's empires have done everything to make sure we never get a proper standard for comparison by being able to look at a thriving socialist country.
Isn't this somewhat in conflict with the previous post where 'increased inequality corresponds with increased mental problems?
Not really, like I said in the following sentence that you didn't quote, it's once we look at inequality and the degree to which people feel included in the decisions of their society and its direction and also regulations that we start to see a picture emerging. It's still capitalism and it's still based on dominance hierarchies in both cases, it's just that you can mitigate its negative impacts with careful regulations.
I mean Norway nationalized it's oil. Putting that in a pension fund for the entire population with clearly defined rules for how much can be used from this fund on a yearly basis is arguably the single most crucial policy element in defining norway's 'success', and it's clearly a 'more socialist' policy than what privatizing the oil fortune would have been. Yes, we're still fundamentally capitalist, yes I agree that it's impossible to find a proper standard of comparison between capitalist and communist countries. (Which is also why I'm skeptical towards concluding that something is clearly the effect of living in a capitalist country - while I'm inclined to agree from a deducting pov, I want data to make conclusions.) But I basically mean that, one of the negative side effects of capitalism is that resources virtually always end up being unevenly distributed. There are other, more complex problems, relating to the psychology of the people living within the society, clearly environmental concerns, etc., but I think inequality is one element of 'negative consequences of capitalism'. Then I think it's fair to consider a capitalistic society that takes certain measures to reduce the degree of inequality, through say, commonly owned public resources, focused public education and health care, is 'less capitalistic' than one that takes no such measures. I think a society that rewards participation and not just winning in sports will to some degree be 'less hierarchical' than societies where they only reward winning. Avoiding grades in school, or at the very least starting the grading process at a later point in time, will have a similar effect. There's a lot of possible policy choices to be made even within the framework of a capitalist, hierarchical society that can make society suffer less from the failures of capitalism and to make hierarchies that organically form within a capitalistic framework be less detrimental, or to make them less likely to organically form.
Well, this is in part just a semantic disagreement. I don't think it's less capitalistic, it's just less barbaric. The mode of production doesn't have degrees, it's the ideological assumptions, theories and movements supporting it that vary and can have different positive and negative effects. Ultimately, the issue is that they are never negated enough to make the system sustainable when you take into account globalization and the psychological health of individuals will always suffer more than that of those who feel like they have direct control over their lives.
As much as I'd like to see a modern socialist country thrive to have that geeky standard of comparison, I don't think it's necessary. Deductive reasoning is enough to know, especially once you take an historical perspective and look at violence over time as well as the observations of bonobos, gorillas and other primates that emphasizes the malleability of aggression and dominance-seeking. It would definitely be great to have Peter Thiel create his Randian free-market utopia island and be able to compare it to an anarchist one, but no civilization can exist in isolation anymore so we'll never have anything like that.
fuck I should just sell some of my Pokemon cards, if no one stakes that is what I will have to do - lostaccount
On June 09 2018 19:40 RiKD wrote:
Interesting. Especially with your history of severe anxiety and depression to the point of leaving school. I have a lot of questions I would like to ask out of curiosity but the one I am interested in the most is:
How is your depression and anxiety today and what do you attribute that to?
Maybe another:
What do you think of someone who is as fucked up as me taking medications and seeing a therapist? Once I ended up in the psych ward and they got their hands on me there didn't seem like any other route. My preference would actually be to get off all drugs UNTIL I start showing signs of excessive mania or psychosis and then taking drugs if needed. The hand tremors from my lithium can be particularly annoying and there is no telling what this stuff is doing to my body long term. I would still like to see a therapist though. My insurance covers it and I feel like it's worth the time.
I don't really have any symptoms of depression anymore. I had panic disorder but I haven't had a panic attack in many years, I only came close a few times during high stress events. My anxiety is mild and very manageable, especially in the last couple years since I've been eating very well and exercising. I was once very agoraphobic and now I often go to shows and I have no issue standing in the middle of a crowd. Speaking of which, you might enjoy this, it was the best show of my life (I pop up at 6:30 filming with my phone ):
I think it's important that you keep seeing a therapist and drugs should only be reduced (and eventually maybe removed) slowly and carefully if you feel like they're more problematic than helpful. I'm living on the fringes of society and my interactions with people are very brief and minimal, so I don't need drugs to function, but it would likely be another story if I was forced into a shitty job I hate. I'd say I attribute those improvements to becoming more spontaneous and less worried about status and how I appear to others. My desire to learn and oppose that which caused these problems has been crucial. I did a good job sourcing material that would eventually lead me to a greater understanding of myself and society, what I have failed at is creating new connections with people, so I still have symptoms of alienation that I'm trying to overcome.
That's pretty cool. Connection is a tricky one. I think oddballs like us have a tough go of it. The only person I've hung out with in months is my parents and a fellow oddball 70 yr. old multi-millionaire retiree. There is also Chomsky, Orwell, Morin, Marx, Amis, Hemmingway, David Foster Wallace, yourself and the rest of LP but that is part of the problem eh?
Here's a problem:
I was at the "cool" meeting ages ago where I barely know people but desperately wanted to be liked. I went to share and got hit with a panic attack. Now, it's like an agoraphobia situation. I would panic when I shared at meetings and then I would panic that I would panic at meetings. This has been the last year. In the past I could read or share no problem. I could even speak for 100 people I barely knew for an hour no problem but now it seems like even reading a small text at the beginning of a meeting causes anxiety. I've been using some immersion therapy. Reading the smallest texts at meetings, speaking at very small meetings where I know most people. It's gotten a little better but to be honest I have mostly just avoided it altogether. Were there any materials that helped with your panic, anxiety, fear?
ps, my internet has not been good today. I will watch the video when I can.
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United States. Jun 09 2018 14:29. Posts 8520
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