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Gambling sucks, video games suck, and poker really sucks - Page 2 |
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Loco   Canada. Jan 08 2018 13:46. Posts 20963 | | |
| On January 07 2018 21:44 Silver_nz wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 07 2018 14:53 Loco wrote:
This is a mix of common sense talk about opportunity cost and the destructive nature of competitiveness and specialization along with superficial talk and bad examples. I only listened up to 6:00 but short answer is that you can't judge an activity/profession in an absolute way. Most of us went into poker because we were very much into gaming so those skills transferred nicely and afforded us the opportunity to make more money than we ever could at the time. For us it was largely a good thing; we had already "wasted" a ton of time gaming, it was only logical to at least make money doing it. What we did with the freedom it afforded us and the money we made is where we can discuss good and bad, the game itself was just the means.
I think very few of us imagined that we were living life to the fullest as pro players and we're probably all aware many years later of some of the possible opportunities it costed us. But if we clearly had better opportunities back then we would have taken them. It's easy to fool yourself and think that in retrospect you could have chosen differently, but we chose to satisfy our needs with the best information we had at the time. For those who are still playing because they have invested a lot of time into it, it might be best for them to keep doing it for some more time until they can see themselves being satisfied doing something else. |
Yes, when we started poker this was the best opportunity. Even though we were hurting others and not really advancing ourselves long term, we did make money in the short term. In this way it is alot like any predator in nature - the prey doesn't want to be eaten. The gazelle has meat. Both the lion and a gazelle want the meat, the lion to eat it for calories, and the gazelle for moving around to graze and mate. We developed the fangs playing starcraft, so we might as well use them, For the successful hunter himself it is a good thing.
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I think that's a clearly flawed analogy. First, the game is played consensually in a civilized environment, upon agreed rules. Secondly, the predator-prey relationship in the wild is inflexible and the winner is predictable given specific circumstances. And if the lion doesn't have a fruitful hunt, he still hasn't lost anything to the prey animal. In poker we use the analogy of the shark and the fish but the shark can always lose to the fish and the shark can become its own worst enemy at any given moment. He needs to be vigilant to avoid that. The poker shark is was not hardwired to be a winner, he turned himself into one through study and perseverance. In fact in most cases he was the fish at some point.
I agree with you on gaming furthering the inability to see far ahead and to plan for a future self because you are too used to pursue instant gratification. But when I'm talking about opportunities, I'm also including this fact as something that stood in the way of you pursing what you can now see, in retrospect, as missed opportunities. In reality you could not have chosen differently given those facts, you only have the feeling right now that you could have done differently, but this is an illusion.
| Isn't it clear that, at least in terms of the base meaning that got us here in the first place - that is: surviving and reproducing - poker and competitive gaming is maladaptive? |
If you're using "maladaptive" in the context of natural selection, it doesn't really apply to individuals or make sense here. What you're concerned with is that it affects your chances at happiness, not that it reduces your chances of reproducing (it doesn't). This is not a major driving force in modern society in the first place (and it's not the only mechanism that got us here). |
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fuck I should just sell some of my Pokemon cards, if no one stakes that is what I will have to do - lostaccount | Last edit: 08/01/2018 14:32 |
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Loco   Canada. Jan 08 2018 13:46. Posts 20963 | | |
| On January 07 2018 21:57 Baalim wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 07 2018 14:53 Loco wrote:
the destructive nature of competitiveness. |
It is also the only constructive drive in nature
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An outdated view of nature. |
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fuck I should just sell some of my Pokemon cards, if no one stakes that is what I will have to do - lostaccount | Last edit: 08/01/2018 13:57 |
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RiKD   United States. Jan 08 2018 16:33. Posts 8431 | | |
Open, borderless, de-centralized networks over centralized, hierarchies. It is the future. It's why ISIS is such a pain. Why bitcoin is bitcoin. ISIS will likely be held to a certain percentage and bitcoin may just be regulated to near death but this idea of cooperative networks is viable. We already have the internet. All we need is more Wikileaks to pop up. Turn the surveillance around. There should be a Wikileaks for every network news show. |
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Floofy   Canada. Jan 08 2018 19:26. Posts 8708 | | |
| On January 08 2018 07:40 bigredhoss wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 08 2018 04:48 Floofy wrote:
I personally don't buy the idea that poker players "hurt" other poker players. Of course, there are some players who are degenerate that lose large ammounts of money they can't afford to lose, but obviously, the person responsible for this isn't his opponements.
But overall, its a bit always this way is every competitive game or sport. The best MMA fighters "hurt" other ones. You could argue Connor McGregor greatly hurt many fighters's career (like Aldo). You could argue Kasparov is responsible for Karpov not being greatest chess player of his time. Can we blame Boxer for kinda "hurting" Yellow's career in starcraft. Its just the nature of competitive games, being good at a game or sport means other people won't be as good as you.
Are we going to blame Connor Mcgregor for the dude who quit his job to become a martial artist and fail horribly?
Of course, you could argue all of those things, pro gamers, pro sport players, etc, are "useless" to society and would be better off all researching cancer, but i think humans with talent are allowed to do whatever they really like doing and shouldn't feel bad if that means other less talented people won't be able to do it. |
I basically think people should do what they want including playing poker, but your analogies are off. It's impossible for a mediocre chess or starcraft player to believe he can become one of the best in the world without being dispelled of that notion very quickly. But there's hundreds of thousands of mediocre or worse poker players who have held the belief that they were the 2nd coming of phil ivey after going on a heater. Some go through a lot of suffering and pointless struggle chasing that idea. Also - while there are surely exceptions - being obsessed with martial arts or chess generally doesn't have the same level of detriment to someone's life that being an obsessed losing poker player does.
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I think you missed my point. The point of the guy in the video overall is "Spending time at competitive games is a waste of time, do constructive real life stuff instead".
Of course, more poker players are "harmed" by playing the game than people playing chess. But i think its unfair to blame this on the better poker players.
I left poker a few years ago, and as far as i know, i don't think i suddenly saved the live of people... people losing to money to me are still losing money lol |
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james9994: make note dont play against floofy, ;( | |
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Smuft   Canada. Jan 08 2018 20:15. Posts 633 | | |
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Floofy   Canada. Jan 08 2018 23:21. Posts 8708 | | |
| On January 08 2018 19:15 Smuft wrote:
https://twitter.com/RichardHeartWin
this guy is literally shilling affiliate links for crypto exchanges and has a daily involvement in the market
wtf? |
Sometimes, the best person to tell you something sucks is people who actually do it xD
Its like a drug addict advising you to never do drugs. Makes sense imo |
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james9994: make note dont play against floofy, ;( | |
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Minsk   United States. Jan 09 2018 22:11. Posts 1558 | | |
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| Last edit: 09/01/2018 22:13 |
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bigredhoss   Cook Islands. Jan 09 2018 23:59. Posts 8646 | | |
| On January 08 2018 18:26 Floofy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 08 2018 07:40 bigredhoss wrote:
| On January 08 2018 04:48 Floofy wrote:
I personally don't buy the idea that poker players "hurt" other poker players. Of course, there are some players who are degenerate that lose large ammounts of money they can't afford to lose, but obviously, the person responsible for this isn't his opponements.
But overall, its a bit always this way is every competitive game or sport. The best MMA fighters "hurt" other ones. You could argue Connor McGregor greatly hurt many fighters's career (like Aldo). You could argue Kasparov is responsible for Karpov not being greatest chess player of his time. Can we blame Boxer for kinda "hurting" Yellow's career in starcraft. Its just the nature of competitive games, being good at a game or sport means other people won't be as good as you.
Are we going to blame Connor Mcgregor for the dude who quit his job to become a martial artist and fail horribly?
Of course, you could argue all of those things, pro gamers, pro sport players, etc, are "useless" to society and would be better off all researching cancer, but i think humans with talent are allowed to do whatever they really like doing and shouldn't feel bad if that means other less talented people won't be able to do it. |
I basically think people should do what they want including playing poker, but your analogies are off. It's impossible for a mediocre chess or starcraft player to believe he can become one of the best in the world without being dispelled of that notion very quickly. But there's hundreds of thousands of mediocre or worse poker players who have held the belief that they were the 2nd coming of phil ivey after going on a heater. Some go through a lot of suffering and pointless struggle chasing that idea. Also - while there are surely exceptions - being obsessed with martial arts or chess generally doesn't have the same level of detriment to someone's life that being an obsessed losing poker player does.
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I think you missed my point. The point of the guy in the video overall is "Spending time at competitive games is a waste of time, do constructive real life stuff instead".
Of course, more poker players are "harmed" by playing the game than people playing chess. But i think its unfair to blame this on the better poker players.
I left poker a few years ago, and as far as i know, i don't think i suddenly saved the live of people... people losing to money to me are still losing money lol |
I watched like 20 seconds of the video, I was only replying to your comments. |
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whammbot   Belarus. Jan 10 2018 08:41. Posts 517 | | |
8billion people , some gotta do some weird shit like poker. We cant all be elon musk or oprah |
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Santafairy   Korea (South). Jan 10 2018 15:23. Posts 2224 | | |
yeah this guy is not bright
not everyone is going to cure cancer and not everyone is even able to contribute to the effort
the human condition is not as narrow as he has been led to believe
there is a huge psychological basis for play |
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It seems to be not very profitable in the long run to play those kind of hands. - Gus Hansen | |
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deathstar   United States. Jan 11 2018 17:49. Posts 111 | | |
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Had to stop listening when he said "its not hard to play poker, theirs guide books on it" |
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Stroggoz   New Zealand. Jan 17 2018 05:31. Posts 5289 | | |
He may be clueless about how to learn poker, but we shouldn't dismiss him, he still has some valid points. |
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One of 3 non decent human beings on a site of 5 people with between 2-3 decent human beings | |
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Silver_nz   New Zealand. Jan 26 2018 06:22. Posts 5647 | | |
| On January 08 2018 08:11 MezmerizePLZ wrote:
List of things to cut out of life so that we can help humanity optimally?
1. Milkshakes, they're really not worth it, even if you're spending money at a restaurant, they're pretty annoying to make and you probably negatively impacted the worker compared to ordering an iced tea, which is more healthy so you can live longer and benefit humanity better.
2. Fashion, in the future once we have all figured out that helping humanity is optimal, there will be no need for it. It's really pretty much just self serving to look cool, even if you're a designer, you should probably start designing things that can actually help people. Maybe like a new sweet hot tub or something.
3. Alcohol, you may think that it's fun, or that its helping you make connections, but really its just damaging ur brain cells which could be used to help humanity.
4. Any type of sports, pretty much just zero sum games, in the future no one will watch sports anyway cuz its -EV compared to helping humanity, so you won't be able to go pro anyway. Potentially good for health so maybe this one shouldn't be on here WHO KNOWS
etc. etc.
I mean I listened to the whole thing and I don't really get his point, obviously poker is not that great of a thing humanity wise, but there is a market for it where playing poker for a living is substantially more +EV for certain people than the alternatives of trying to work up through a 9-5 or risk starting their own business for god knows what. When that happens then people will play poker over their other options. I definitely think there are a lot of people who are just barely surviving in poker that would benefit from switching to something more stable/enjoyable for them. He seems to think its more important to be productive than to be happy, or maybe hes arguing that being productive will make you more happy? idk
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Heh, you are still a master of humour-lubed persuasion Mez. Milkshakes and fashion do have value, I saw the point as being a comparison to what you could have done instead of poker-for-5-years. Could have been creating cutting-edge artisan milkshakes for example. Or could have been building a professional career for 5 years, or building a really nice house in the woods, or using your natural talents to entertain as a standup comic, or to lead a game design team to create games more compelling than poker which also improve lives rather than ruin them (as most modern games are just aimed at addicting the player to wring as much money as possible from him: examples - Candy crush, WOW, downloadable content etc, a game that is both compelling and aids people in understanding the world could have big value).
Over the 5 year period, some of these things might have had a higher payoff (in whichever metric you choose to measure value; money, status, health, number of babies produced etc). And your payoff from 5 years at a focused long term goal that is not poker might be significantly higher, like 10x higher AND they would almost certainly continue to pay off over the rest of your life too - e.g. the house you can live in, the career you still get asked to do high paid contracts, the milkshakes are immortalized in the National Food museum
I think it was Phil Galfond who said "if you are smart enough to make money at poker you are smart enough to make much more money doing something else"
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Silver_nz   New Zealand. Jan 26 2018 06:23. Posts 5647 | | |
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Stroggoz   New Zealand. Jan 26 2018 06:56. Posts 5289 | | |
hmm, if im smart enough to make money at poker im smart enough to make more at something else? could certainly be true, lots of mit graduates get job rejections from goldman sachs tho, and poker has the value of letting you be a free person. Freedom is highly underated, imo! |
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One of 3 non decent human beings on a site of 5 people with between 2-3 decent human beings | |
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Silver_nz   New Zealand. Jan 27 2018 03:43. Posts 5647 | | |
| On January 26 2018 05:56 Stroggoz wrote:
hmm, if im smart enough to make money at poker im smart enough to make more at something else? could certainly be true, lots of mit graduates get job rejections from goldman sachs tho, and poker has the value of letting you be a free person. Freedom is highly underated, imo! |
This is true, being able to start and stop when you like, no one to answer to not even customers, relying only on your own objective skill (i.e. no "faking-it" or favoritism); is quite an unusual situation in the modern world. Very similar to being a hunter-gatherer.
Anything else you did would be just as highly specialized, but likely involve talking and socializing with some kind of customer, and that means deadlines and obligations to fulfill, and being a trustworthy and stable entity. Certainly a cost to the lifestyle. |
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Baalim   Mexico. Jan 27 2018 06:51. Posts 34246 | | |
Being paid for defeating others in a game of wit and emotoinal control is just amazing. |
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