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live 1-1-2 A9ss

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traxamillion   United States. Nov 21 2015 19:46. Posts 10239

I raise CO vs old Asian nit to 8 with A9ss who is the only caller in BB.

Me 660
Azn 400-500

Flop 3s3d9c (pot 12 after the immediate full drop rake I'm pretty sure. Dumbest game ever with a pre flop drop of 2 and another 4 on any flop cause 4 rake 2 BBJ but it is soft enough that pots aren't usually hu. I know I need to play more 3-5 since the rake is the same as 1-1-2 but this my only source of income and I live in the Bay Area so my BR is constantly diminished via RL expense. Despite the rake this game is still usually crushable; 3-5 is just as soft tho with the same drop so no reason not to play there if u have the $.)

I bet 8, villain c/r to 24 I call.

Turn 3s3d9cQh (pot $60)

Villain bets 68, I?

Last 2 hours everyone had been playing pretty straight forward just taking turns fleecing a whale who was lighting cnotes on fire every few hands. Only raise I saw this nit make was a big turn raise vs the fish and a caller on 310JQ with AK where flatting was the clearly better play (although fish did stack anyways on turn with AJ so maybe his shove was alrite lol). About an orbit ago the fish finally quit and we were down to 8 handed at this point; 1am with the game about to likely break not sure if he is aware of this though.

He raised flop Pretty quick and bet turn almost instantly; maybe polarizes him a little more than he already is but doesn't mean a ton to me.

On flop he reps 3x maybe some 99 but obv I block that to 1 combo. He may flat some 1010/JJ pre (maybe even QQ but I'm heavily discounting that) but once the Q drops he isn't potting those. Same goes for any random 9x flop raise he wont continue turn like this. I don't think he raises any 9x on flop anyways. If he flats his 3x on this dry flop then I'm losing to virtually nothing in this spot but I can't be sure how he plays that part of his range. We are a little deep so he may just want to start piling money with his nuts; esp if he views my open as strong/overpair heavy. Don't think he should be flatting much 3x pre in this spot pre but that is not to say he isn't.

If I eliminate overpairs from his range then A9 is by far my best calldown hand; blocking A3 and 99. Online vs random i'm definitely calling down here as it is common flop for getting played back at.

Anyone able to hero fold this turn?

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 Last edit: 21/11/2015 20:01

traxamillion   United States. Nov 21 2015 20:03. Posts 10239

If you call turn; what is ur action on 8h river after villain bets 150


goose58   United States. Nov 21 2015 20:38. Posts 868

I don't have a ton of live experience, but the older guys don't seem to bluff(specifically, raise or put a lot of money in the pot) as much as the younger ones. I think you should give him respect for a hand here until he proves that you shouldn't. Flop might even be a fold(I do think his range is value heavy so we can exploit him with a fold), although a call is of course standard. I feel the turn is a fold with your current reads..

I think you should wait for a clearer read and idea of his ranges to put a lot of money in the pot with him, especially because these games are soft and you can find better spots than calling down on this board vs a classic nit. If he's raising the flop as a bluff, what hands is he doing it with? Possibly some overcards, an underpair to the board, or hands like A4s or 76s if those are even in his BB calling range vs CO. If he bluffed the flop with overcards and a backdoor draw for example, there is a good chance he hit this turn or river..

Of course I could be way off base here, and hopefully some strong live players chime in..


darkestfog   United States. Nov 27 2015 22:49. Posts 3

Preflop: Why are you raising? To take down the blinds? To get it heads up in position? To bloat the pot with an IO hand? 8$ only accomplishes the third because live villains will call that with any hand they feel like playing and BB will defend with ATC pretty much if he's closing the action. Villains see 8$, not 4BB!!

Anyway, I like the choice to raise preflop but sizing along the lines of $15 is far better for live low stakes so that you have some fold equity OTF, and you'll get it heads up or take down the blinds pretty often. Tiny preflop raise sizing is esp bad with the brutal drop you have to deal with.

Shockingly you get to the flop heads up...

Flop: bet at least pot here. He's calling $15 with the same hands he's calling $8 with. This man didn't come to the casino to fold TPWK to one bet even if he's an asian nit.

His c/r is strange. The fact that the pot is so small makes this less strong than usual though. Regardless I expect him to have at least a 9 though. That sizing on this dry board could mean he's trying to "see where he's at" but honestly he could have 3s or even slowplayed overpairs too. I think calling and reevaluating turn is fine here. I have to think your puny $8 bet has some frequency of making him spew off, by the way.

Turn: when he bombs the turn like this you can pretty comfortably fold because hands weaker than 9A don't do this due to the dryness of the board, unless he's randomly spewing off but I don't see live Vs go crazy in situations like these very often, even taking into account the fact that you bet ice cubes preflop and on the flop.

To break this down, we improve only 10% of the time on the river (and who knows if an A is good), and we are getting less than 2:1 on this call and might have to check/fold the river if he bets again. So we need him to be on a random bluff 23% of the time at a _bare_ minimum to make this call (probably more like 30% taking into account everything else) and there's no way he's bluffing (or somehow overplaying a worse hand for value) that often here.

This isn't a hero fold, it's a snap fold. Spots like these aren't where you make money at these stakes. If it went check/check on the turn I would value bet almost any river, by the way.


PoorUser    United States. Nov 27 2015 23:31. Posts 7326

fold w reads given and bet sizing. prob call a smaller turn brl and then fold riv vs random old guy live

Moneys gotta go in here 

traxamillion   United States. Nov 28 2015 06:40. Posts 10239

nice thanks, yea that is what i did, folded face up after his turn bet. Hopefully induce a show. He slammed down 62dd outa nowhere! I swear he had been SO TIGHT for hours

 Last edit: 28/11/2015 06:40

traxamillion   United States. Nov 28 2015 06:51. Posts 10239

yea bro darkest I know I probably have among the higher winrates in these small live games around here. I know the basics and I think towards the bottom of my OP i explain fairly well why it isn't necessarily just a snapfold despite the large bet (my inclusion that villain is an live old player skews everyone to fold as it did me at the time - and that is kind of the point).


darkestfog   United States. Nov 28 2015 14:58. Posts 3

Same here, I've been playing 40+ hours per week at live 1/2 and 2/5 with solid results for 8 months or so. You should know by now that his spew here is the exception, not the rule. He's definitely not doing this the ~20-30% of the time that you need to continue in the hand. Playing correctly means you fold incorrectly some of the time.

Again though I think the fact that you basically scraped some lint out of your pocket and put it on the table for your preflop and flop bets contributed to his spewage here.


DooMeR   United States. Nov 29 2015 23:50. Posts 8458


  On November 27 2015 22:31 PoorUser wrote:
fold w reads given and bet sizing. prob call a smaller turn brl and then fold riv vs random old guy live



I agree with RichUser. FoldUser is usually right about these things <3

I just saved a bunch of money on my car insurance, by running away from the scene of an accident. 

Spitfiree   Bulgaria. Nov 30 2015 20:14. Posts 7701


  On November 27 2015 21:49 darkestfog wrote:
Preflop: Why are you raising? To take down the blinds? To get it heads up in position? To bloat the pot with an IO hand? .


please.



I call turn and most likely fold river, we need the fish to overplay or spew somewhat to call the turn, which he surely does and fishes are too scared to go 3barrel so

edit: just saw your 62s post, yeah fishes tend to spew on paired boards cuz they suck and think its easy to rep trips and that having trips necessarily means you've got the nuts etc.

 Last edit: 30/11/2015 23:08

JohnnyBologna   United States. Dec 03 2015 09:22. Posts 1384


after seeing the results, i just gona summarize what i took from the hand.


flop is an auto call of course.

turn: this guy is literally repping a 3 from the looks of it (smooth call BB special) and he has a lot more 3 in his range than you do and of course he realizes this and decides to take advantage of it

(Possible?) Tells:

i think the biggest thing in this hand was the bet sizing. he bet almost instantly, which means it was predetermined on flop he was gona fire any turn, this is usually a sign of bluffing. also he bet more than pot which means he wants you to fold or scaring you away.. these are two tells i noticed in this hand but havent validated how accurate it is yet because im not sure how much % they play this same way with a 3 in their hand or if they would bet something else like 40 on the turn.

All in all you only lost 32 dollars this hand, and although its not a huge lost, i am still very sad to see us lose this hand because i am always trying to maximize profit and win every hand and it seems like we got exploited this hand.


Possible solution to prevent this from happening again in the future...

vs this particular opponent i would say you need to adjust your bet sizing, as all your bet should be player dependent and not linear or systematic. In this case, i would NOT like to see a check raise from a tight player or any playing back, therefore I would be betting something that will get us more respect like 12 dollars and just play the hand straightforward for value not trying to induce any bluffs with bets like $8 even though it helps balance your air range for cheap. If it were a fish though im all for your 8 dollar bet bro and induce away.
and if he check raises you after your 12 dollar bet and call i can fold more comfortably on turn in a sense...


You say hes an old azn nit.
if this were a game and all the fish are level 1 newbs, i would say this guy is like a lvl 2 or 3 shaman.






By doing a little bit at a time, a lot can be done 

thewh00sel    United States. Dec 03 2015 18:44. Posts 2717

First rule of poker is:
Never fold a good hand face up.
The second rule of poker is:
Never fold a good hand face up.

Worse than talking strategy at the table

A government is the most dangerous threat to man’s rights: it holds a legal monopoly on the use of physical force against legally disarmed victims. - Ayn RandLast edit: 03/12/2015 18:45

traxamillion   United States. Dec 04 2015 01:15. Posts 10239

Agreed, table was about to break tho and doubt I see him again. Wanted to see his hand and it worked out. Just proved how hard I got owned though


traxamillion   United States. Dec 04 2015 01:20. Posts 10239

Agree with ur post johnny; positive the guy isn't thinking about ranges and what he reps. May not have even spoke english. I think he just looked at positions and betsizing, decided I was weak/without 3 and went ham. I have the best calling hand so fk it should just call with at least this; he seemed ready to fire River and I just didn't wanna call that bomb.


 





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