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Gto river calling. Need help.

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SuperCardUser   United States. Aug 16 2015 01:20. Posts 83

Been playing a lot of 100 zone on bovada. Good results but I think I'm calling too much on river. Is there a stat in hem for this? Like river call +-$

There is a lot of bluffs there but I'm stacking off a lot also. Any suggestions?

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ToT)MidiaN(    United Kingdom. Aug 18 2015 17:57. Posts 4941

There's a stat called "River Call Efficiency" which shows how much you return per $1 invested in river calls, so any number >1.00 shows that you're making profit on the calls. You can then filter by hand ranges on river, so you can see how you're doing when hero calling for instance


SuperCardUser   United States. Aug 20 2015 02:13. Posts 83

Thanks. I was looking for what stat to find. One more question. since I play zone anonymous tables. Would it be beneficial to me to study gto river betting/calling frequencies? What's your recommendation on that. Obviously I'm a sick n00b so I'll be happy with any tips you have for zone style poker.


SuperCardUser   United States. Aug 20 2015 02:25. Posts 83

River call eff= 1.43 at 100 zone. When I looked at facing bet on river my net is way in the negative for that stat. Hmm I'm having trouble on river because I'm picking off tons of bluffs but paying off tons of nuts too...


traxamillion   United States. Aug 20 2015 08:19. Posts 10275

Well when facing a bet on the River you have to fold often and makes sense to have a net negative even as a winning player (this is my gut feeling. Have not actually ever seen these stats). If ur call eff is 1.43 then ur right often enough on those calls but I don't think that tells the whole story and you probably need to analyze what this stat means through it's correlation to some other related stats

These stats really could mean anything when looked at alone. For example if you just always fold on the river when facing a bet unless you are nutted your river call efficiency will look great however you are getting crushed without showdown and leaking heavily. Despite that one stat looking good your river calling frequencies may be way off.

 Last edit: 20/08/2015 08:23

SuperCardUser   United States. Aug 20 2015 09:01. Posts 83

I'm sure they are... Should I have a calling frequency based on bet size. Example pot sized bet. Getting 2-1 on call. Should I be calling the top 33% of my range that's left on that street? I'm sick n00b so work with me????


ToT)MidiaN(    United Kingdom. Aug 20 2015 12:20. Posts 4941

Yes, naturally if a guy bets $1 into a $100 pot you're obviously going to be calling a lot more often than if he bets $100 into a $100 pot. GTO river calling frequencies are usually very close to 1-alpha, but they can be tighter or looser depending on what ranges both players get to the river with. Putting too much time and effort in to studying GTO is very unlikely to benefit you imo. I know all too well as my winrate has plummeted significantly since I started attempting to play a theoretically sound/GTO approach. There are far too many spots where a huge number of players are simply not bluffing or conversely there are spots you can find where they're bluffing too much. You can find streets where they're folding way too often and streets where they're not folding anywhere near enough. I think instead of pumping tons of money in to GTO solvers and what not you should just aim to improve your hand reading abilities and try to exploit player tendencies to underbluff/overbluff/underfold/overfold

 Last edit: 23/08/2015 09:42

Highcard   Canada. Aug 22 2015 23:10. Posts 5409


  On August 20 2015 11:20 ToT)MidiaN( wrote:
Yes, naturally if a guy bets $1 into a $100 pot you're obviously going to be calling a lot more often than if he bets $100 into a $100 pot. GTO river calling frequencies are usually very close to 1-alpha, but they can be tighter or loosing depending on what ranges both players get to the river with. Putting too much time and effort in to studying GTO is very unlikely to benefit you imo. I know all too well as my winrate has plummeted significantly since I started attempting to play a theoretically sound/GTO approach. There are far too many spots where a huge number of players are simply not bluffing or conversely there are spots you can find where they're bluffing too much. You can find streets where they're folding way too often and streets where they're not folding anywhere near enough. I think instead of pumping tons of money in to GTO solvers and what not you should just aim to improve your hand reading abilities and try to exploit player tendencies to underbluff/overbluff/underfold/overfold



+1

I have learned from poker that being at the table is not a grind, the grind is living and poker is how I pass the time 

Baalim   Mexico. Aug 23 2015 09:39. Posts 31469


  On August 20 2015 11:20 ToT)MidiaN( wrote:
Yes, naturally if a guy bets $1 into a $100 pot you're obviously going to be calling a lot more often than if he bets $100 into a $100 pot. GTO river calling frequencies are usually very close to 1-alpha, but they can be tighter or loosing depending on what ranges both players get to the river with. Putting too much time and effort in to studying GTO is very unlikely to benefit you imo. I know all too well as my winrate has plummeted significantly since I started attempting to play a theoretically sound/GTO approach. There are far too many spots where a huge number of players are simply not bluffing or conversely there are spots you can find where they're bluffing too much. You can find streets where they're folding way too often and streets where they're not folding anywhere near enough. I think instead of pumping tons of money in to GTO solvers and what not you should just aim to improve your hand reading abilities and try to exploit player tendencies to underbluff/overbluff/underfold/overfold



Agreed, however running GTO Simulations can be eye opening about your tendencies and many things you arent doing fwiw

Ex-PokerStars Team Pro Online 

SuperCardUser   United States. Aug 25 2015 10:25. Posts 83

Thanks guys. And I am going to focus on hand reading for now. Playing a lot of zone on bovada and seems like a standard tag approach with lots of bet folding might be the way to go. also think I'm going to tighten up preflop. Like 18/16/7


ToT)MidiaN(    United Kingdom. Aug 25 2015 12:22. Posts 4941

By playing that tight pre you're folding a lot of profitable hands. Pretty much none of the bigger winners in the PokerStars zoom games are playing <22% vpip and most of the best Stars zoom regs are 26-30% vpip from what I've seen. There should be a bigger gap between vpip and pfr than 2 as well, much of which will be made up in the big blind where you should be flatting relatively wide


SuperCardUser   United States. Aug 26 2015 00:47. Posts 83

My current stats on 20k hands is 22/17/8. But because it is 100% anon I was thinking of nitting it up a bit. Keep late position the same. Tighten up earlier and get more hands per hour. But I dunno. I opened up for a phase at like 26/22/10 but I found myself in too many uncompfy spots against unknown players. So I wanted to tighten back up because my winrate dropped. But maybe at that 22/17 spot I'll be ok. Just hard to make certain plays against completely random opponents.


Highcard   Canada. Aug 26 2015 15:32. Posts 5409

to be entirely honest, I do not know how to calculate a defend percentage from the BB or SB when facing anon players. I don't know of any aprox gto defend percentages, so how do you even go about playing this zoom, anon, tables?

1 guy could be opening 10% button, the next guy 100% button, any idea how to come up with a strategy?

I have learned from poker that being at the table is not a grind, the grind is living and poker is how I pass the time 

Ryan Neilly   United States. Aug 26 2015 18:36. Posts 1160

listen to midian and baal they are very spot on trax solid too

anything midian or baal posts is str8 gold in general.


Fayth    Canada. Aug 27 2015 04:33. Posts 10050

95% of the time I read one of your post neilly, first thing that comes to mind is "well... this is awkward"

Im not sure what to do tomorrow when I see her, should I shake her hand?? -Floofy 

Smuft   Canada. Aug 27 2015 14:50. Posts 615


  On August 26 2015 14:32 Highcard wrote:
to be entirely honest, I do not know how to calculate a defend percentage from the BB or SB when facing anon players. I don't know of any aprox gto defend percentages, so how do you even go about playing this zoom, anon, tables?

1 guy could be opening 10% button, the next guy 100% button, any idea how to come up with a strategy?



You can make assumptions about how the population plays PF and design your defense frequency based on that.

You can then make deviations based on reads like stack size and open raise size.

Occasionally you'll make "mistakes" against extreme players but the vast majority of the time you'll be executing your strategy vs a player that is representative of the population


SuperCardUser   United States. Aug 28 2015 11:37. Posts 83

I can get population stats because in hem they go by player name utg/co/btn etc so I can get population stats based on position and then in pokersnowie I can get opponent population overall Vpip pfr etc. not exactly sure what to do with it though ???? maybe I'll get some of stats and post and you guys can give me some recommendations.


Highcard   Canada. Aug 30 2015 01:56. Posts 5409


  On August 27 2015 13:50 Smuft wrote:
Show nested quote +



You can make assumptions about how the population plays PF and design your defense frequency based on that.

You can then make deviations based on reads like stack size and open raise size.

Occasionally you'll make "mistakes" against extreme players but the vast majority of the time you'll be executing your strategy vs a player that is representative of the population


The margin for error or deviation on positional stats, combined with deviation of ranges, combined with post flop frequency deviations + high rake = a massive cluster fuck of a situation that definitely destroys profit margins.

There is a calculation on some math blog, I don't have a link, that worked out an anon game, similar to this zoom anon.

In the game, they created 3 profiles, 1 spazzy fish, 1 regular who exploited regulars trying to exploit the fish and you

In the end, You could not profit in this game because any exploit you used vs the fish ranges, was exploited by your other opponent, the regular. Since you never know if you are up against the regular or the fish in each instance, the game reach break even much faster than normal.

My point is, not a single person should ever support anon zoom games offered as it is a terrible precedent for game strategy and profit margins.

I have learned from poker that being at the table is not a grind, the grind is living and poker is how I pass the time 

SuperCardUser   United States. Aug 30 2015 08:39. Posts 83

Thanks for that post. I was wondering if there were any studies on that. Maybe I'll just stick to slow ass regular games. God I wish I could play stars ????


Smuft   Canada. Aug 30 2015 16:59. Posts 615


  On August 30 2015 00:56 Highcard wrote:
Show nested quote +



The margin for error or deviation on positional stats, combined with deviation of ranges, combined with post flop frequency deviations + high rake = a massive cluster fuck of a situation that definitely destroys profit margins.

There is a calculation on some math blog, I don't have a link, that worked out an anon game, similar to this zoom anon.

In the game, they created 3 profiles, 1 spazzy fish, 1 regular who exploited regulars trying to exploit the fish and you

In the end, You could not profit in this game because any exploit you used vs the fish ranges, was exploited by your other opponent, the regular. Since you never know if you are up against the regular or the fish in each instance, the game reach break even much faster than normal.

My point is, not a single person should ever support anon zoom games offered as it is a terrible precedent for game strategy and profit margins.



Seems like a pretty interesting paper, you have a link?

Do you think he considered all variables? Like just giving 3 profiles and their static EV against each other seems like it's over simplifying things.

Fish often have <100bb stacks and use strange sizings/timing throughout the hand that give away who they are. There are so many ques throughout the hand especially PF (stack size, limping, minnish 3bets) that you'll often know before you even VPIP.


 
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