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TimDawg   United States. May 20 2013 19:37. Posts 10197 | | |
I decided to post this in the High Stakes forum since I think it gets more views and responses than the "Other Poker Games" forum. If mods feel like this needs to be moved then go ahead but I prefer to have it left here.
So I've been playing a live game that has a 3 game mix, 1 round of each: No Limit Hold'em, Pot Limit Omaha, and Pot Limit Omaha H/L. The blinds are $5/$5 with many players putting $10-$25 straddles on the button at times. Usually everyone is pretty deep as well as the game has a min-buyin of $500 and some people buyin for $1000 or more.
I feel I have a pretty decent grasp on NLHE and PLO High but feel really confused as to what to do in a lot of situations for PLO H/L. For example what hands to open with preflop, what hands to open limp/call a raise or what hands to limp/fold to a raise (or should I never be doing this?), what hands to 3bet with, ect. Also not sure how to play certain postflop spots when I have the nut low draw/2nd nut low draw and no high hand or if I have a good high hand and no low draw.
Here is an example of a hand I played last night that I'm not sure about:
Game is 7 handed. Blinds are $5/$5 and there is no straddle this hand. I am UTG with and limp for $5. Both blinds are recreational players so I want to play pots with them. I felt my hand was not strong enough to raise preflop and stand a re-pot so my plan was to just limp/call. Should I just fold preflop to begin with?
Anyway, one player UTG+1 limps, folds to CO who pots to $30 (we'll call CO, Villain 1), SB folds, and BB calls (we'll call BB Villain 2), I call and UTG+1 folds.
Villain 1 is my friend who I consider to be a good thinking player. Villain 2 is a recreational player who is pretty loose preflop and a passive, fit or fold type of player postflop but is capable of getting super aggressive with his bare nut low draws, bare 2nd nut low draws.
Also as far as stack sizes go, Villain 1 has roughly $800 behind, Villain 2 about $1k behind and I cover both.
So flop comes down
checks around to Villain 1 who bets $80 into a pot of $100
Villain 2 raises immediately to $180
I think for awhile and re-pot to $750.
Standard? Any argument for cold-calling?
Villain 1 announces he's all in.
Villain 2 thinks for a decent amount of time then calls, leaving about $200 behind.
I am not able to raise because it is less than a minimum raise and call.
Turn is the
Villain 2 checks and I put him all in.
I'm going to go ahead and post results since I'm interested in what you guys think about everybody's play in this hand.
Villain 2 has
Villain 1 has
The river comes out the so the final board is
So what do you guys think of my play in this hand and both villains' play?
Also just some general thoughts as to what you guys think is good to do in this game and what is not good to do. I will post some more specific examples of some of my questions in the beginning of the thread but I wanted to go ahead and get this thread up and running.
Thanks in advance,
Tim
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online bob is actually a pretty smart person, not at all like the creepy fucker that sits in the sofa telling me he does nasty shit to me when im asleep - pinball | Last edit: 20/05/2013 19:38 |
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PoorUser   United States. May 20 2013 21:43. Posts 7471 | | |
probably just have to fold flop with no low draw. so many good straight draw/fd hands that have really strong equity vs set that are also freerolling low draw. if your 9 was 2/4/5/7/8 itd probably be different |
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NMcNasty   United States. May 21 2013 17:34. Posts 2039 | | |
When a passive villain raises that flop you're done. He'll always have either top set or flush draw+low draw and you do poorly vs that range.
Fold pre. Low pairs are really not good in this game. |
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MezmerizePLZ   United States. May 21 2013 18:58. Posts 2598 | | |
I would fold this hand pre. Ur potential high hands and potential low hands are both not that strong. |
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MezmerizePLZ   United States. May 21 2013 19:01. Posts 2598 | | |
I've only played limit omaha H/L but in a ring game, i think you can be very selective preflop with hands alot of the time. Its probably really important to be drawing to clean lows |
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W   . May 22 2013 11:20. Posts 11 | | |
plo8 is a disgrace, o8 should always be fixed limit.
then again i also think nlhe is a joke compared to flhe. |
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rogier   Netherlands. May 22 2013 17:39. Posts 1528 | | |
| On May 21 2013 18:01 MezmerizePLZ wrote:
I've only played limit omaha H/L but in a ring game, i think you can be very selective preflop with hands alot of the time. Its probably really important to be drawing to clean lows |
this. essentially, with the hand you have pre you're at best drawing to a split, and especially in 3way situations you're just getting crushed by hands which can be a massive favorite against you. besides that, your hand is often playing to win half the pot instead of to scoop, which is quite bad. Therefore, play hands that have potential for both (suited ace + LO(5 or under) card + broadway card, preferrably suited obv). As said before, bottomset is worthless due to this
obv topset vs midset looks like a cooler, but even a hand like a nutflushdraw with a random LO is a massive favorite versus your hand. A six hi LO draw is not going to help you a lot, so if you're whiffing your set you're pretty fucked. Hence: fold low pairs. Furthermore, having a nine in your hand is quite bad because it rarely helps you (lets you not draw to the nuts on HHx boards, weak on boards with 2 cards lower than 8)
start playing around with http://www.propokertools.com/simulations to get a better idea about equities.
fwiw, I'm nowhere near a highstakes player but this is a really basic mistake comparable to limping KTs or something preflop UTG in a remotely aggressive ringgame.
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| Last edit: 22/05/2013 18:01 |
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n0rthf4ce   United States. May 25 2013 23:09. Posts 8119 | | |
ur hand is terrible, def fold pre |
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TimDawg   United States. May 26 2013 19:02. Posts 10197 | | |
Ok I'm going to be playing in the same game today and will try to be a lot more selective pre
Will jot down any interesting hands and post them later tonight or tommorrow |
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online bob is actually a pretty smart person, not at all like the creepy fucker that sits in the sofa telling me he does nasty shit to me when im asleep - pinball | |
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TimDawg   United States. May 27 2013 19:25. Posts 10197 | | |
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online bob is actually a pretty smart person, not at all like the creepy fucker that sits in the sofa telling me he does nasty shit to me when im asleep - pinball | |
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waga   United Kingdom. May 28 2013 02:05. Posts 2375 | | |
600+310+70+20=,1000
edit: nevermind I was thinking about it while taking a shower and I'm not sure now , 8am here I need to sleep
Omaha Hi Simulation ?
281,040 trials (Exhaustive)
board: Kd8s7c6s
Hand Equity Wins Ties
9dTd8h2h 45.16% 0 253,808
9T 54.84% 27,232 253,808
edited with right board |
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| Last edit: 29/05/2013 14:03 |
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zemetique   France. May 29 2013 13:49. Posts 86 | | |
River bet is more like 2/3 of the pot. I'd like your plan if you had an actual PSB or possibly slightly more to bet on the river, but if it really is only 600 in 900 left, shoving the turn is much better, while he usually had T9 there is also a decent chance he doesn't, in which case you are slightly ahead and he will probably outplay you on river.
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Decidement les temps comme les oeufs sont durs, et la betise n a pas de limite | |
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mnj   United States. May 29 2013 17:06. Posts 3848 | | |
Seems silly to defend this kind of hand against a good competent reg.
I guess you are bluffing to try to get him off a split....but I think if you go through the step of seeing things from his point of view, I don't think you have many strong hands at all. |
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waga   United Kingdom. May 29 2013 17:46. Posts 2375 | | |
| On May 29 2013 16:06 mnj wrote:
Seems silly to defend this kind of hand against a good competent reg.
I guess you are bluffing to try to get him off a split....but I think if you go through the step of seeing things from his point of view, I don't think you have many strong hands at all. |
folding pre from the button is terribad
and obviously he can have a lot of strong hands river.
wtf do you even play omaha ? Oo |
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waga   United Kingdom. May 31 2013 15:05. Posts 2375 | | |
for nlhe : 95o vs top 100% : 42% vs 58%
.................. vs top 10% : 27.5% vs 72.5%
for plo : T98ss vs top 100% : 50% vs 50%
....................vs top 10% : 41% vs 59%
definitely not the same no.
against this vilain 3b > fold > call but I never fold in a live game this hand where ppl have absolutely no clue how to play omaha. |
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| Last edit: 02/06/2013 00:44 |
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Naib   Hungary. Jun 01 2013 08:52. Posts 968 | | |
| On May 31 2013 14:05 waga wrote:
I never fold in a live game this hand where ppl have absolutely no clue how to play omaha. |
I think this is the single most important advice to playing PLO live, especially if the game is very passive (happens often, at least in my experience). You can see flops so cheaply and just get away if you're non-(near)nutted. |
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My favourite line is Bet/Fold. I bet, you fold. | Last edit: 01/06/2013 08:52 |
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n0rthf4ce   United States. Jun 01 2013 18:04. Posts 8119 | | |
Never folding this hand pre in a deep live game, almost always 3b or calling and in this spot probably calling. As played I love the shove. It's a win/win as either u win the pot or if he calls its a great image builder and you get paid later. |
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n0rthf4ce   United States. Jun 01 2013 18:06. Posts 8119 | | |
Btw I expect him to call and always call in this spot or fold and always fold in this spot. Live PLO players fall into these categories most of the time |
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TimDawg   United States. Jun 07 2013 20:24. Posts 10197 | | |
Haha didn't mean to confuse you Lex |
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online bob is actually a pretty smart person, not at all like the creepy fucker that sits in the sofa telling me he does nasty shit to me when im asleep - pinball | |
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gawdawaful   Canada. Jun 14 2013 09:58. Posts 9012 | | |
| On May 21 2013 17:58 MezmerizePLZ wrote:
I would fold this hand pre. Ur potential high hands and potential low hands are both not that strong. |
| On May 21 2013 18:01 MezmerizePLZ wrote:
I've only played limit omaha H/L but in a ring game, i think you can be very selective preflop with hands alot of the time. Its probably really important to be drawing to clean lows |
I pretty much had this in mind when I read OP. Would love to read more PLO8 spots if you come across more |
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Im only good at poker when I run good | |
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TimDawg   United States. Jun 30 2013 23:04. Posts 10197 | | |
Alright guys I got two more hands I'm going to post: one high low and one high
In the process of putting them up now |
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online bob is actually a pretty smart person, not at all like the creepy fucker that sits in the sofa telling me he does nasty shit to me when im asleep - pinball | |
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TimDawg   United States. Jul 01 2013 00:51. Posts 10197 | | |
Ok the first hand is a H/L hand. Villain in this hand is a good thinking live reg that is definitely capable of bluffing in good spots but generally just always shows up with the nuts.
I have
$15 button straddle, Villain raises to $50 UTG+1, I flat MP, CO flats
Flop , Villain bets $115, I flat, CO folds
Turn , Villain bets $225, I flat
River
Villain bets $450
Hero?
(I have $700ish behind and Villain has me covered)
I think flop and turn are pretty standard. Pre flop I could see an argument for 3 betting. On the river I'm pretty lost on what to do. His sizing also confused me a lot since he's betting $450 into about $850 when he could just pot and put me all in.
This next hand is a PLO High hand. Villain in this hand is also a good thinking player with more of an online background. We are pretty good friends and always seem to "go after" each other as a result of both of us being very competitive. I don't know if that factors into his play in this hand or not though. The guy in MP is a guy I've never played with before but seems weaker/recreational.
$10 button straddle, I have on CO, Villain raises from UTG to $40, HJ flats, I flat in CO, straddle calls.
Flop
Villain checks, MP bets $100, I call, straddle folds, raiser calls
Turn
Raiser checks, MP bets $100, I call, Villain goes all in for $600ish. MP tanks for awhile and folds. Hero?
Villain and I have about the same amount to start the hand. I really was kind of lost in this hand on the turn. I felt the flop was pretty standard. I considered jamming turn but wanted to keep in worse hands. What do you guys think?
Comments for all streets are appreciated, thanks
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online bob is actually a pretty smart person, not at all like the creepy fucker that sits in the sofa telling me he does nasty shit to me when im asleep - pinball | Last edit: 01/07/2013 01:34 |
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NMcNasty   United States. Jul 02 2013 10:50. Posts 2039 | | |
Hand1: AA2 is basically the nuts and you want just AA to have a decent chance of winning high so I definitely 3bet pre to get it hu. I think I just fold river since you have the Ad diamond blocker and both aces block A23. If he's got a lot of wrap type hands in his range then he's pretty bad.
Hand2: Bleh I just call. Seems like villain has AQ or AA a lot and you don't quite have odds, but it's kind of a weird spot and I don't like folding hands that good in weird spots. |
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waga   United Kingdom. Jul 02 2013 21:17. Posts 2375 | | |
hand 2:
you have to call 500 for a 1750ish pot ?
In vilain' shoes I would be piss off if you think about it more than 3 seconds
You have 25% against a non bluffing range :AA,AQ,88,33,QQ
22% against : AA , AQ
and both MP and you show weakness on the turn , I would be shocked if you have less than 30% here. |
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tooker   . Jul 03 2013 15:31. Posts 470 | | |
| On July 02 2013 20:17 waga wrote:
hand 2:
you have to call 500 for a 1750ish pot ?
In vilain' shoes I would be piss off if you think about it more than 3 seconds
You have 25% against a non bluffing range :AA,AQ,88,33,QQ
22% against : AA , AQ
and both MP and you show weakness on the turn , I would be shocked if you have less than 30% here. |
appears to be 500 into 1250ish |
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waga   United Kingdom. Jul 03 2013 21:19. Posts 2375 | | |
so we need 500/1750 = 28.5% , sorry if I wasn't clear. |
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YoMeR   United States. Sep 10 2013 17:07. Posts 12435 | | |
As think as a general rule of thumb you're gonna be way nittier in hand selection for PLO8 than PLO...esp in multiway pots. you don't want to have 2nd nuts + 2nd nuts and just get scooped by 2 other players. |
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YoMeR   United States. Sep 10 2013 17:13. Posts 12435 | | |
hand #1 I think is a pretty clear 3bet pre unless you have a good reason not to. You'll be able to take this hand to war on so many boards.
hand #2 I think this is a pretty easy call unless villain in hand is really on the nitty side. You do have a lot of wrap + FD hands dominated and are drawing live even against strong made hands. |
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YoMeR   United States. Sep 10 2013 17:14. Posts 12435 | | |
In general I think just 3 betting a higher frequency than not in omaha w position is so good...ppl tend to react so poorly vs them |
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