Portland forcing poker rooms to remove professional dealers and use players from the games

This might seem like an April fools day joke, but believe us - it's not. City of Portland wants its local poker rooms to permanently stop using professional dealers and instead make the poker players in the games deal the hands themselves, passing the cards around like it happens in most home games.

Can you imagine how messy the games will get and how many questionable situations this will lead to?

According to a report published in the Portland Tribune, Portland City sent a letter to all 15 poker rooms located in the area ordering them that “designated dealers are not allowed” under current state law. In simple words, the dealers can’t be employees or volunteers without pay anymore and have to participate in the games actively.

Due to law in Oregon, which prohibits all non-tribal casinos, poker rooms make profit through entrance fees,food and drink sales, rather than real rake.

This is also a direct results of some poker rooms trying to cut their financial obligations to dealers, as they used volunteer dealers, who earned only tips instead of proper wages. There were at least 2 cases of dealers filing complaints over not making at least minimum wage at the very profitable rooms in the city.
The Oregon Bureau of Labor and Industries investigated the complaints, and so city of Portland decided to crack down on the poker games. According to the report, Portland had previously let the games run, even even though they knew that the situation with dealers was rather questionable.

Soon after the July letter from the city, the Encore Poker Club in Northwest Portland closed its doors for good. Two of the largest rooms in the area, that is Final Table and Portland Meadows reportedly are still using permanent dealers and are in talks with the city officials. Others have accordingly complied to the new terms.

Welp, mechanics are gonna have an easy time.

Yomer gotta contact sorEl miz and get tips on how to bottom deal effectively

pretty sure on twitter Sorel said " moving to portland"

That's kind of funny and a really weird/complicated issue of employee treatment and an established culture of tipping. From a European perspective where I definitely agree with minimum wages across the board, but casino poker dealers make more than enough not to need them at all.

so sounds like some terrible dealers who were not getting tipped complained and ruined poker for entire city

I hate it when players take turns dealing cards. It only looks cool in rounders, sucks in real life haha

Just imagine the amount of times people will forget to burn a card.
Or a newbie joining the table

oh the fun

Oh dear god. Rules made for poker players by non poker players seem to be the theme nowadays. 80 year old woman dealing 1 hand in 20 mins no thx.

As crazy and ridiculous as this sounded at first it *kind of* makes sense. If your establishment is paying dealers a wage, then you're operating a casino, which is illegal. If your establishment is selling beverages, and and your customers just so happen to decide on playing some poker at one of their tables, you can at least smirkingly say that their gambling has nothing to do with your business.

I mean I still think there are better options of course but when faced with the can of worms a labor lawsuit would bring I understand where the city is coming from.

lul

This is awful. Who is this legislation supposed to benefit? I don't see anyone benefiting

I don't understand how these clubs make much money to begin with when they can't take a rake. Player dealt games won't work and if they have to pay the dealers there is no way they can stay profitable.

Fortunately, for now everyone but Encore just ignored the letter and it's business as usual. Enforcement has been threatened many times but the follow through is never there. The few times clubs have been shut down they just reopen a few months later under new owner or name.

lol fuckin shit q.q

There were at least 2 cases of dealers filing complaints over not making at least minimum wage at the very profitable rooms in the city.

greedy cunts.

if they were dealing at encore or FT they are for SURE averaging more than minmum wages long term.

I hear some of them complaining they earned $5 that hour. but never talk about the times it's $40+ an hour either.

just all greedy scumbags

the tipping model is absolutely fucking retarded

On August 29 2016 00:01 Baalim wrote: the tipping model is absolutely fucking retarded

On August 28 2016 23:48 YoMeR wrote: There were at least 2 cases of dealers filing complaints over not making at least minimum wage at the very profitable rooms in the city. greedy cunts. if they were dealing at encore or FT they are for SURE averaging more than minmum wages long term. I hear some of them complaining they earned $5 that hour. but never talk about the times it's $40+ an hour either. just all greedy scumbags

how the hell is wanting minimum wage in a profitable room greedy?

Lol at greedy poker players who don't tip because it's "-EV"

On August 29 2016 02:16 PolarFox wrote: Show nested quote + On August 28 2016 23:48 YoMeR wrote: There were at least 2 cases of dealers filing complaints over not making at least minimum wage at the very profitable rooms in the city. greedy cunts. if they were dealing at encore or FT they are for SURE averaging more than minmum wages long term. I hear some of them complaining they earned $5 that hour. but never talk about the times it's $40+ an hour either. just all greedy scumbags how the hell is wanting minimum wage in a profitable room greedy?

it's greedy and unhelpful. You are taking away from other things the casino can spend on including advertising for more players to play in the room. You are forcing out of market prices on other items within the same establishment which is less money the players will have to tip with. i.e. Pay the dealers $0 and they live off tips, drinks $1, entry fee $20, whatever it is. Pay dealers $10 an hour, drinks $3, entry fee $30...One takes from the other it's unavoidable.

I see people from non us hating on tipping. Which I don't like it either. But tbh jobs that are tipping related probably pay more in the US if I had to guess. I mean it's significantly higher than minimum wage usually. Depending on the exact service. But there are waiters making 25 an hour easily depending on restaurant

On August 29 2016 00:01 Baalim wrote: the tipping model is absolutely fucking retarded

yes fuck that 1st person who tipped someone because of good service. That fucker should have just smiled and said thanks

Also, fuck all the services that originally did not have tipping but instead employees decided to shame customers with a tip jar.

lastly fuck owners who purposefully take advantage of people to force them to rely on tips.

It is a guise, where by it should be pay people a fair wage, price your items at a fair rate.

Here at my casinos, they are:

a) union

b) paid a fair wage

c) have very set hours, secure work

d) refuse work because they don't have to deal after certain requirements

There have been games waiting for a hour to start because all the dealers not at a table 'did not have to work right now'.

ridiculous they expect tips under that environment.

The worst part is they do not gets tips mostly anywhere else and all the newer dealers froth at their 'chance' to deal at the poker room for part of their shift. They literally look at you as an ATM and get visibly upset if they don't make enough tips.

They literally do less work and less stress at a poker table than at Blackjack but expect so much more.

I feel like I should get a graphic tshirt for the casino that says:

Dealers: I am not your ATM

+ Less rake ?
+ You dont have to feel obligated to tip the dealer anymore
+ If its possible to agree with the other players to be dealing for everyone, its easier to be patient when you have something to do with your hands and thereby +EV (+ still a quick game)
+ I think this type of cheap enviroment is generally making people play worse (+EV)

- Some scumbags will try to cheat, and probably in some cases get away with it
- Some people running good the hands they dealt themself will be falsely accused for cheating. I think there will be a lot of "Ive been in poker long enough" situations
- Probably a lot of drama, drunk people screwing up, misdealing etc

Considering those facts:

- Live players are mostly recreational
- It's a game of chance where you bind money with ego and emotions ( recreationals are not aware of the long run )
- Free alcohol and waitresses are usually hot , which also primes you to act on primal instincts as a male ( inb4 feminazis attack me on this )

- Minor negative fact -> people that love to talk a lot will become even more annoying.

Mix that shit up and you will have a lot of unnecessary drama. Agree with Baal, but then government made a retarded decision as well, not that its surprising considering clueless people take a decision on topics they are completely unaware of.

On August 29 2016 06:20 thewh00sel wrote: Show nested quote + On August 29 2016 02:16 PolarFox wrote:   On August 28 2016 23:48 YoMeR wrote: There were at least 2 cases of dealers filing complaints over not making at least minimum wage at the very profitable rooms in the city. greedy cunts. if they were dealing at encore or FT they are for SURE averaging more than minmum wages long term. I hear some of them complaining they earned $5 that hour. but never talk about the times it's $40+ an hour either. just all greedy scumbags how the hell is wanting minimum wage in a profitable room greedy? it's greedy and unhelpful. You are taking away from other things the casino can spend on including advertising for more players to play in the room. You are forcing out of market prices on other items within the same establishment which is less money the players will have to tip with. i.e. Pay the dealers $0 and they live off tips, drinks $1, entry fee $20, whatever it is. Pay dealers $10 an hour, drinks $3, entry fee $30...One takes from the other it's unavoidable.

hold on so you really think if dealers are making less than min including tips they should just suck it up for the benefit of everyone else? wtf?
.
I don't like the tipping model and think the rooms should pay the dealers straight up, they rake enough

the dealers weren't making less than minimum wage in tips. I would be very shocked. Most dealers in vegas make 25~ an hour give or take a few dollars and only 2.5 of that is coming from actual pay. Tipping for dealers is actually normally huge +EV setup. Its likely if they were they were really bad dealers.

On August 29 2016 04:00 spugru wrote: Lol at greedy poker players who don't tip because it's "-EV"

it's not greedy. it's cheap and shows no class.

On August 29 2016 10:14 Highcard wrote: Show nested quote + On August 29 2016 00:01 Baalim wrote: the tipping model is absolutely fucking retarded yes fuck that 1st person who tipped someone because of good service. That fucker should have just smiled and said thanks Also, fuck all the services that originally did not have tipping but instead employees decided to shame customers with a tip jar. lastly fuck owners who purposefully take advantage of people to force them to rely on tips. It is a guise, where by it should be pay people a fair wage, price your items at a fair rate.

I think you misinterpreted his point.

There is nothing wrong with tipping for service but wages should not be based on the auto assumption you will get tipped. There is no law that forces a consumer to pay your wage.

In the us, tipping is "expected" and is taken out of your base pay. Should you run bad and always get customers that never tip, you are not being fairly compensated for your work.

If you want to fix the problem, you either pay the employees the base rate and eliminate tipping if you think it's "too greedy" or you build in a base 12-18% charge on every single bill as gratuity built in so people have to pay it.

Option 1 businesses dont like cause its an added hit to cost and option 2 consumers dont like cause its like being additionally taxed.

On August 29 2016 06:20 thewh00sel wrote: Show nested quote + On August 29 2016 02:16 PolarFox wrote:   On August 28 2016 23:48 YoMeR wrote: There were at least 2 cases of dealers filing complaints over not making at least minimum wage at the very profitable rooms in the city. greedy cunts. if they were dealing at encore or FT they are for SURE averaging more than minmum wages long term. I hear some of them complaining they earned $5 that hour. but never talk about the times it's $40+ an hour either. just all greedy scumbags how the hell is wanting minimum wage in a profitable room greedy? it's greedy and unhelpful. You are taking away from other things the casino can spend on including advertising for more players to play in the room. You are forcing out of market prices on other items within the same establishment which is less money the players will have to tip with. i.e. Pay the dealers $0 and they live off tips, drinks $1, entry fee $20, whatever it is. Pay dealers $10 an hour, drinks $3, entry fee $30...One takes from the other it's unavoidable.

Considering that the poker room is a business why would it not already have chosen a price point that maximizes its revenue? If it could get away with increasing the entry fee to have extra money to compensate dealers then they should have increased the entry fee years ago and just kept the extra money for themselves.

Reminded me of one of my fav movie scenes.

yup I love that scene... fuck tipping, they are jobs and should be paid like any other job, if you for some reason feel like giving money to some worker then fine its your money, but It shouldn't be expected, encouraged or even mentioned.


And obviously this measure is beyond retarded and people are going to misdeal and angle shoot all day long, also it will be a cheaters paradise.

From what I've read about various jobs, the USA is the only place where tipping is expected and people get frustrated if they are not tipped... I see no reason to tip if you are just doing your job, if you go beyond that sure, but the baseline being tipping is super retarded.

I have to agree with that Gordon Gekko guy

"Youre gonna tip the dealer because you dont want to be that asshole that doesnt tip the dealer"

tipping sucks, especially mandatory
people should be paid a livable wage, below minimum does not cut it, and if you think it's fair that dealers in a casino are making less than that then you are basically supporting this type of solution because you're not gonna get reliable competent dealers anyway if they keep not making money.
and this solution sucks, seems like a consequence of politicians being presented with a problem where they have 0 knowledge of how what they are trying to solve operates and then they end up stuff like this. But if the casino had just abandoned tip structure and either decreased top level pay (preferable) or increased entrance fees/drinks then there'd never be any need for it.

On August 30 2016 01:05 blackjacki2 wrote: Show nested quote + On August 29 2016 06:20 thewh00sel wrote:   On August 29 2016 02:16 PolarFox wrote:   On August 28 2016 23:48 YoMeR wrote: There were at least 2 cases of dealers filing complaints over not making at least minimum wage at the very profitable rooms in the city. greedy cunts. if they were dealing at encore or FT they are for SURE averaging more than minmum wages long term. I hear some of them complaining they earned $5 that hour. but never talk about the times it's $40+ an hour either. just all greedy scumbags how the hell is wanting minimum wage in a profitable room greedy? it's greedy and unhelpful. You are taking away from other things the casino can spend on including advertising for more players to play in the room. You are forcing out of market prices on other items within the same establishment which is less money the players will have to tip with. i.e. Pay the dealers $0 and they live off tips, drinks $1, entry fee $20, whatever it is. Pay dealers $10 an hour, drinks $3, entry fee $30...One takes from the other it's unavoidable. Considering that the poker room is a business why would it not already have chosen a price point that maximizes its revenue? If it could get away with increasing the entry fee to have extra money to compensate dealers then they should have increased the entry fee years ago and just kept the extra money for themselves.

I think we are saying the same thing. I'm saying without any knowledge of the market, that most likely the business paid at the market rate, and if the rates are altered by the government then it will imbalance everything else within the business. Obviously if there are enough people who feel like they are underpaid, they will leave and others who accept those lower wages will fill the gap until the point where customers don't think that the people dealing are any good and need to be paid more thus drawing more skilled laborers to those positions. It's a balancing act i.e free market, but when the laborers can complain to the government to attempt to force higher pay they will change the market in some inefficient way.

The tipping model for service jobs is not flawed imo. There are actually a lot of benefits to it. One is a layer of bureaucracy is removed because you don't need to see who the best dealers are to give them promotions, the market automatically corrects for it, same with waiters. You could already see with Highcard's post that dealers who are unionized and protected by the government are less likely to deal to the best of their abilities/unwilling to start tables for players, etc because there is no incentive. Tipping is incentive, and service is one of the more free market jobs that exists. Without fail, every night at the Bellagio, the fastest, best dealers are cashing out 20% more than the average, and more still than the slow shitty ones. Some shitty ones don't get tipped well, and quit, while a good dealer might tell his buddy about how much he makes by doing it a certain way and more good dealers come into the fray. Another example of a shitty business strategy is tip pooling. aka welfare, which is a tax on the best dealers and a boon to the shitty. Everyone is brought down to the lowest common denominator, so dealing the slowest will benefit the most and thus everyone deals like shit and everyone gets punished for it. Incentives rule all, and free market, profit motivated incentives have been proven to be the best way to do pretty much everything.

The reason tipping is "accepted" is because the casino or establishment sets it up that way as they believe it's in their best interests, you're then reacting to their business model. They're forcing you to make a moral decision to get more money from you, it's that simple and it's dirty. You wouldn't want the person who just helped you to not be taken care of. After all, they did you a kindness, a good job, looked after you etc etc... and that should be rewarded, right? It's uncertain how much you should give and the dealers or anybody working a job that accepts tips will make more money because people will voluntarily give more than is actually fair. As whoosel pointed out, those who don't make enough money then quit their job because of it. That should be a decision for management, not one an individual worker has to make. It encourages workers to act the same way they would on a regular wage but for the wrong reasons. None of this makes any fuckin' sense for the players, in fact it's disrespectful towards them. Set wages + no tips accepted is the most honest way to do it.

I'm not sure anyone actually realizes the money saved from tipping. On average, for services that are tipped as a norm, you save 10% tipping 10%.