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Aggression Entry #4 |
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MARSHALL28 United States. Jan 02 2008 16:28. Posts 1904 | | |
Okay so, I’ve been planning on getting out this article for a while now, and I think I finally have the time to pump it out, so what I’m basically going to be doing here is explaining, with examples, why it works, how to employ it, etc.
When I was in Vegas I sweated Daut for about 45 minutes online. He said something to me that really hit me hard, I thought about it, and realized, this is exactly the image I want at the table. What he said was “the guys on my right, I want them to fear me, I want to be in the back of their mind every time I enter a pot, because when they fear me, they are going to become uncomfortable playing against me, and when they’re uncomfortable, that’s when they make mistakes.” This wasn’t verbatim, but pretty much the gist of what he was saying. The point of it is, by inflating the pots against players in position, because they make the mistake of calling too often (or folding too often, both can be mistakes depending on the situation), you will win a ton of money.
Most players think I’m a donk calling station, or I’m just so retarded agro that I’m a terrible player. The thing about it is, I’m not afraid to go w/ a read that I have, and I’m not afraid to go broke. Some advice I’ve been giving my students lately, that I think is very important for everyone (who eventually wants to get very good) is to make a move if you think it may be a good situation. The thing is, it may not, and you may get stacked, but what’s important is that you found out the information about that situation, and you know for next time. There are so many situations out there, if you are just paying attention where you can force folds out of your opponents. You’ve just never attempted them, so you have no idea, here’s an example …
http://www.pokerhand.org/?1885655
I realized that on the river, against this particular player, if I raised his blocker bet I could represent the flush, and get a fold a high percentage of the time. Obviously he’s not going to believe me every time, but the point is, it’s going to work often enough that the play will be profitable. Here’s one where it didn’t work….
http://www.pokerhand.org/?1885661
In this one, I thought he had a very marginal made hand that thought I might be bluffing the K on the turn. I went a step further and recognized that he probably thinks I was bluffing the K on the turn and attempted to further cement in that bluff by jamming the river. He made an unbelievable call, and was right this time. I really think this was a lucky call, as even if I hit my 8 or 9 on the river I was making the same play, or it’s also very likely I was turning a made hand into a bluff, like a pair of 7s or 8s or whatever. The point is, because of my level of aggression, I’m getting him to call down three barrels all in w/ 4th pair. This is a great thing.
Here’s the reason why I think this is such a great play. Even if it’s negative EV at this particular point, for sake of example let’s say that he makes this call 60% of the time, meaning I only win the pot 40% of the time. The point is, I’m a good enough player to look at the information I received from this hand, I’m going to take into account how this particular player is going to be adjusting to my play in the future, and I’m going to use all of this information to make FAR FAR more positive EV plays against him, as well as others paying attention at the table in the future. As I’m sure you can see here, this style of play is extremely high variance, and I constantly have sessions where I’m down 5 buy ins, then win 2 buy ins back, then lose another 4, then win 5, then lose another 4, and finish up like 4 or 5 buy ins on the session. This in particular happened last night, and it does happen pretty often. It’s also why my WTSD is so high, it’s because I’m getting it in so light so often.
This brings me to the point about the difference in a cooler the way I play to a difference in a cooler the way a tight player plays. For a tight player, a cooler might be a set under set, or two pair versus a set, or an overpair versus a set. However, for me, a cooler is going to look MUCH more like something like this….
http://www.pokerhand.org/?1885674
Or like this …
http://www.pokerhand.org/?1885395
Or this…
http://www.pokerhand.org/?1885400
The purpose of showing you these is because I end up getting the money in so light against a lot of players, that when I do happen to make top pair, in my mind it’s pretty much the nuts. based on the fact that I’m bluffing so often and value betting so thinly against players, they are going to sit there and think that their 2nd pair is good against me when I’m betting top pair three streets all in for value (sometimes worse than top pair if I have a specific read on a villain). This is something I do constantly, and a very big reason for why my winrate is so high.
Now like I said, a lot of people think I’m nuts or I’m just flat out a bad player when they see the types of hands that I show down in certain situations (BUT THIS IS GREAT FOR MY IMAGE!!), because I know how people are going to react to me, and I know how to react to them.
Because I force myself into these types of situations constantly, I have gotten pretty decent at figuring out when I’m good and when I’m not…. Here’s a few examples…
http://www.pokerhand.org/?1885715
This is 100% for value against this player, what I was attempting to do was force him to jam on me w/ Ace high or something worse because this is a flop that just looks like I'm going to be bluffing really often. I’m just raising too many pots for them to think I hit this board. I'd actually play any pair this way. This is how I get people to constantly put the money in w/ A high or other very weak hands. I’ll give a few more examples….
http://www.pokerhand.org/?1885732
Here's a spot where I get him to get it in against me for 200bb w/ just TPTK.
http://www.pokerhand.org/?1885738
People like to claim that I just run good and am really lucky, but how many of you are getting all in value here?
http://www.pokerhand.org/?1885491
http://www.pokerhand.org/?1885753
If the river hadn't come a 3 here, I was betting it for value, as I felt a 3 and ace high were a huge portion of his range. He called me an idiot afterwards. lol.
http://www.pokerhand.org/?1885499
It’s important to manipulate the perception your villain is going to have of your play, for example, certain players are going to think an all in jam looks like a draw (most do until they know you will do otherwise), so it’s usually best to play a strong hand like this on a draw heavy board by just jamming, I’ll often do this w/ sets and overpairs also, not just top pair. Here’s an example where I knew a villain would interpret a jam as very weak, but a small raise as very strong, so what I did was a checkminraise…
http://www.pokerhand.org/?1885514
I actually think villain very likely folded a decent sized overpair here, or if he didn’t happen to hold one in this spot that he would fold a decent sized overpair.
Okay so, there’s one other concept that is really important to understand with this style, and it has a lot to do w/ double barreling in certain situations where you have high implied odds. I don’t know anyone that’s every articulated it before, I’ve never read it anywhere and never heard anyone explain it, so I’m gonna do my best…
It’s like, lets say you’ve opened from the SB and been called by the BB, you are holding like 78o and the flop comes J64r, you’ve flopped a gutshot and you go to c-bet. Villain calls your c-bet, the turn card is a 9, making you an open ended straight draw. This is a spot where I love to double barrel, obviously on the surface this looks just like a standard double barrel, but let’s think about it from a different perspective. When you are firing this second barrel here (which should be near pot sized), you are putting villain in a pretty difficult spot considering he could have been calling the flop w/ a pr of 7s, 8s, Ts, a weak J, even a somewhat strong J like a JT, they are going to have trouble calling the second barrel, you’ll actually find that they fold a pretty decent portion of the time (more often than you’d expect—even w/ a crazy image). But the thing about it is, if their hand is strong enough to call this second barrel, we will have accomplished two things—one, we’ve established that villain has a pretty strong hand in this spot, and two, we’ve built ourselves a good sized pot w/ a fairly decent draw. Now let’s say you hit your draw on the river. By building the pot on the flop and the turn, you’ve created a situation where you have very high implied odds to win a big bet on the river (since river bets are usually the largest in size). If his hand was good enough to call a pot sized bet on the flop and turn, he’s going to almost feel committed to calling the 3rd barrel on the river. At this point, you can use your discretion if you miss, or if say an overcard comes that you can represent, like a Q, K, or A. What you need to do is experiment w/ betting sizes to see how certain players interpret certain types of bets. Some are going to look at a bet that looks like a value bet and think it’s a bluff, others are going to look at huge bets and just be too scared to call, or might be more inclined to call because they think you’re bluffing. This is something you learn w/ experience, and by constantly getting yourselves in these situations.
The great thing about playing this way is that it makes your opponent play out of his comfort zone. You are in your comfort zone because you play large pots all the time and are comfortable w/ losing a stack or two if it happens to happen. Your opponents for the most part won’t be. This is what’s going to cause them to make mistakes. And the bigger the pot is against these weaker opponents, necessarily, the mistakes they make will be bigger ones.
These types of play work much, much better in position, I just chose a random example for this particular hand, but when you are able to do this to someone who is out of position, and to just continue to hammer down on them, it becomes very easy to start putting your opponents on hands and very easy to extract value w/ hands as weak as second or even third pair. I posted a hand not long ago where I bet the turn and called all in for value w/ AJ high. These types of things are possible; you just have to open your mind and start thinking of ways of being creative. You’ll never learn anything if you just sit there and tag it up and never force the issue or “make any mistakes” … IMO if you aren’t making mistakes, you aren’t playing good poker. If you see me posting advice in the hand forums, I’m usually saying all in and celebrate, or bet all three streets for value. These reasons I’ve articulated in this article are exactly why I advocate what I do.
Thanks for reading, hope you enjoyed it. If you have any questions feel free to post comments. I’m heading out of town tomorrow for PCA I’ll be there until the 11th or 12th, not quite sure.
GL,
Marshall28
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MARSHALL28 United States. Jan 02 2008 16:50. Posts 1904 | | |
twisted, i agree people can pick up on how i play, and i appreciate the warning, but my feeling on it is this ...
if people couldn't already figure this out based on playing against me, and adjusting to it in the flow of the game, sure they can come and read this, and realize that they can do x or y to exploit me, and it might work for a minute or two ... but im a good enough player to realize who's adjusting to me and who's not. So it;s like, if they weren;t already smart enough to understand this, to try to interpret it here then exploit me, i think they are going to make even bigger mistakes against me since they just dont have the experience or understanding, and im going to readjust much faster. who knows, maybe ill be playing a 20/17 game rather than a 38/33 one next time I sit down, there's no way they can know, i'd rather have the image first then worry about people exploiting me afterwards. the only people that really tend to give me a lot of trouble are the ones who are in position against me and are just as aggressive or eve nmore aggressive, for example AcidCA, i sat w/ him the other day and was extremely impressed. but i think most people arent good enough, and i like to share my thoughts on this stuff. |
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MARSHALL28 United States. Jan 02 2008 16:54. Posts 1904 | | | |
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Bejamin1 Canada. Jan 02 2008 16:55. Posts 7042 | | |
These thoughts about putting opponents in very tough spots on a frequent basis are pretty interesting. It's like playing long-ball all the time but you're always on home field and the other team is always wearing uncomfortable uniforms designed by George Kastanza. |
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| Sorry dude he Jason Bourned me. -Johnny Drama | |
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thanks for the article, good read  |
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ahh, you cashed out your PS roll to buy a car? |
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| Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light not our darkness that most frightens us and as we let our own lights shine we unconsciously give other people permision to do the same | |
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TimDawg  United States. Jan 02 2008 17:20. Posts 10197 | | |
loved it
especially loved the hand against baal looooool |
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| online bob is actually a pretty smart person, not at all like the creepy fucker that sits in the sofa telling me he does nasty shit to me when im asleep - pinball | |
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MARSHALL28 United States. Jan 02 2008 17:48. Posts 1904 | | |
didnt cash out my PS roll, my ps roll was like 50k ... i cashed out 27k for the car and a watch ... left me w/ like 22, then i busted that ... then i sold the 6 hours of coaching for 400, then i turned that into 12k in 1 sesssion. |
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MARSHALL28 United States. Jan 02 2008 17:59. Posts 1904 | | |
plz anyone post your thoughts on this idlike to hear other sides of it, or if u think some things are mistakes, id really appreciate it. |
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sawseech Canada. Jan 02 2008 18:12. Posts 3182 | | |
stuff like this is subject to counter-exploitation; the thing is, most players are too stupid to arrive at an appropriate solution and the rest just tilt, which is why it's so powerful
you and 0evg0 and noahsd are the primary reasons why i've evaluated my game and decided to make a concerted effort to arrive at and implement a 33/30 variant
thx for posting |
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| lets go fucking mental la la la la lets go fucking mental lets go fucking mental lala la la | |
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JonnyCosMo United States. Jan 02 2008 18:18. Posts 7292 | | |
Except 0evg0 and noahsd are complete noobs who have no clue wtf they are doing.... |
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| Everyone needs to see that you are king of the castle - PoorUser | |
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JoeDeertay United States. Jan 02 2008 18:20. Posts 1730 | | |
Great article, good read. Too bad this is like the complete opposite of my playstyle =P |
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| Variance has a big brother named doomswitch. - edzwoo | |
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sawseech Canada. Jan 02 2008 18:20. Posts 3182 | | |
i didn't say that i was thrilled with the quality of their play and, yeah, i busted them up pretty good |
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| lets go fucking mental la la la la lets go fucking mental lets go fucking mental lala la la | |
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adam001 Canada. Jan 02 2008 18:55. Posts 289 | | |
nice article, good read.
lol @ baalim hand
It's def some food for thought tho, and a lot of it I have also been thinking about lately.  |
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vegable United States. Jan 02 2008 19:16. Posts 2453 | | |
Sick article. Can't wait to start but I gotta put it off for a few days... |
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TimDawg United States. Jan 02 2008 19:23. Posts 10197 | | |
i have a question i guess kind of pertaining to the article since it's about aggression
after looking at your stats a couple of posts ago, i was surprised to see that your total AF was only a little over a 3
mine has always been pretty high (4.5-5) and i've always tended to think it could be a leak and i'm not really sure how to lower it without doing things that might be -ev
in order to lower it i've been experimenting with taking more passive flop lines such as checking back TP (on dry & semi drawy flops), occasionally just flatting raises pf w/ JJ+ AK, and c/c'ing cbets with sets/overpairs on semi drawy/drawy flops and sometimes leading turns and other times check/shoving turns depending upon what i think my opponent will do most of the time on various turns
hopefully that made sense |
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| online bob is actually a pretty smart person, not at all like the creepy fucker that sits in the sofa telling me he does nasty shit to me when im asleep - pinball | Last edit: 02/01/2008 19:24 |
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Joe Czech Republic. Jan 02 2008 19:29. Posts 5987 | | |
| | On January 02 2008 18:23 TimDawg wrote:
i have a question i guess kind of pertaining to the article since it's about aggression
after looking at your stats a couple of posts ago, i was surprised to see that your total AF was only a little over a 3
mine has always been pretty high (4.5-5) and i've always tended to think it could be a leak and i'm not really sure how to lower it without doing things that might be -ev
in order to lower it i've been experimenting with taking more passive flop lines such as checking back TP (on dry & semi drawy flops), occasionally just flatting raises pf w/ JJ+ AK, and c/c'ing cbets with sets/overpairs on semi drawy/drawy flops and sometimes leading turns and other times check/shoving turns depending upon what i think my opponent will do most of the time on various turns
hopefully that made sense |
You prolly play tighter preflop. If u are a standard tag player with stats like 18/16 or something similar, then having total AF of about 4.5 is quite usual. |
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| there is a light at the end of the tunnel... (but sometimes the tunnel is long and deep as hell) | |
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TimDawg United States. Jan 02 2008 19:35. Posts 10197 | | |
| | On January 02 2008 18:29 Joe wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 02 2008 18:23 TimDawg wrote:
i have a question i guess kind of pertaining to the article since it's about aggression
after looking at your stats a couple of posts ago, i was surprised to see that your total AF was only a little over a 3
mine has always been pretty high (4.5-5) and i've always tended to think it could be a leak and i'm not really sure how to lower it without doing things that might be -ev
in order to lower it i've been experimenting with taking more passive flop lines such as checking back TP (on dry & semi drawy flops), occasionally just flatting raises pf w/ JJ+ AK, and c/c'ing cbets with sets/overpairs on semi drawy/drawy flops and sometimes leading turns and other times check/shoving turns depending upon what i think my opponent will do most of the time on various turns
hopefully that made sense |
You prolly play tighter preflop. If u are a standard tag player with stats like 18/16 or something similar, then having total AF of about 4.5 is quite usual.
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i run at 22/18 mostly athough i can play really lag or really tight depending upon how the table is |
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| online bob is actually a pretty smart person, not at all like the creepy fucker that sits in the sofa telling me he does nasty shit to me when im asleep - pinball | |
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thanks for the article... i'll have to keep this in mind if i ever move up lol
btw... 400 to 12k is extremely impressive
did you manage to do that playing this very way? |
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