Eeking it out

My parents don't pay for anything except for I benefit from not paying rent and benefit from groceries occasionally and I don't know what they think. I don't wear silly hats and I have a buzzcut. I own 5 black t-shirts, 5 black boxer briefs, 3 pairs of shorts, and 1 pair of sandals. I don't want to be a fake poor hippie. If anything I want to be the guy down by the river selling pots I made in return for meagre money and food or a Buddhist monk or something along those lines. A simple life taking refuge in the 3 jewels. I really am quite far from being a hippie these days. The only real similarity is a rejection of conventional values.

you forgot about your car. didn't your parents gift you that?

pretty much rent + car make up the majority of expenses for most adults. what happens when your car breaks down and you need a new one? I guess you can get a bicycle or save up for some sort of moped.

also most adults kind of save a little bit for a rainy day//retirement. do you really think your parents/siblings are going to let you get to a point where you are homeless living on the street one day?

you can keep lying to yourself but at the end of the day, yes you are a fake poor person.

I had a really nice used Hyundai Elantra once. I think I was paying like $200/month for that. I could probably afford that but I would want to go more bare necessity than that. Hell, I might be paying $200/month in books these days. This is part of the trap I don't like though. I have been over it in the past. I need a car to go to my job. I need a job to pay for my car. It's frustrating. Thinking about it makes monastic living so much more attractive.

Much to my chagrin I am saving for retirement. It's such a pain to do it through a company. They make it so easy to syphon all your money into the accounts they want it in but then when it comes time to take the money out it's a pain in the ass. I don't even want to get started on investment corporations or the stock market. I have some money saved up too. I was more talking about my income versus expenses. I think I made $200 more dollars than my expenses were this month.

I don't know what the definition is of a "fake poor person." I've gone into numbers in the past. My position today is that being transparent on the internet is stupid. I will say that if you added $1,000/month for rent, car payment, random groceries to my expected income this year I would not be under the poverty line. I don't know if I ever claimed to be poor in this thread. I simply said I am eking it out on a pretty low level of expenses. $200 on books is a lot (if it was even that high which I don't think it was) but that is my "entertainment." I literally go on the internet, go to the beach, and read. That is pretty much it.

poor

lacking sufficient money to live at a standard considered comfortable or normal in a society.

So, it depends what the standard is but I think by most ordinary standards I would be considered poor.

It doesn't really matter though because I don't really think in those terms anymore. Why would I care what ordinary and worldly society thinks? They think that getting married, buying a house, having children, and clinging to material items is a good idea. No thank you.

I eke it out, I meditate, I learn, I reflect. Sometimes I will be dissatisfied. I am still learning and practicing.

On August 29 2018 23:24 hiems wrote: you forgot about your car. didn't your parents gift you that? pretty much rent + car make up the majority of expenses for most adults. what happens when your car breaks down and you need a new one? I guess you can get a bicycle or save up for some sort of moped. also most adults kind of save a little bit for a rainy day//retirement. do you really think your parents/siblings are going to let you get to a point where you are homeless living on the street one day? you can keep lying to yourself but at the end of the day, yes you are a fake poor person.

Such a harsh bitchy post lol. Stop giving society so much credit its messed up and stupid based on the presumption that life is about economics. We should be trying to live with nature not saving up for some car bs I think being a bum might actually be kinda noble.

^ no idea what the hell your talking about.

What are the odds Rik never quit working at his corporate job and has been climbing the ladder/killing it, and these blogs are just to troll everyone?

Poll: would you ever finance a used car?
(Vote): yes
(Vote): no

On August 31 2018 02:15 bigredhoss wrote: What are the odds Rik never quit working at his corporate job and has been climbing the ladder/killing it, and these blogs are just to troll everyone?

Zero. But, that is a funny idea. I have dreams that I am back in that life but they are mostly about the people I miss or the stimulating aspects of it. Actually, even last night I had a dream that I was calling on one of my favorite customers and he couldn't afford to pay all of that month's consignment so we negotiated out a deal that both sides could live with then he wanted to show me his new favorite movie and I sat on the floor cross legged and we watched the movie but he was watching it super loud and some women started complaining and when she got to the door she was really attractive with a hat and tattoos and then she didn't expect me to be in there and we exchanged attracted gazes and then Merv (customer) just sort of rolled his eyes and we continued to watch the movie. Any psycho-therapists/dream-analysts out there?

No, but I actually got out of that corporation at a good time. It is more and more driven by cold, robotic, accountants. The CEO and the shareholders get all the money. The Presidents of the Business Units get the scraps as well as the cold, robotic, accountants but they are really one in the same these days.

I work for quite a large corporation today but I wouldn't say I am killing it. I do my best to be useful. I have no desire to move up the ladder or even to move from part-time to full-time.

The culmination in my time of high paying corporate America jobs could really be summarized by my $3,000 desk lamp sitting in a box somewhere in a corner somewhere in my brother's basement. There was also the stupid expensive rehab that basically just told us to go to Alcoholics Anonymous. Staying at the W in Chicago when my friend had an open couch. The list is really endless.

Just the nature of corporations it is hard to avoid the state of müdigkeit (tiredness, undeadness). Not quite alive and not quite dead. We anesthetize ourselves with substances, material goods, whatever we can find. There is no rest. No andante (in a moderately slow tempo). At my current work it is critical that I get into a production mode. I must optimize. I must think about how to maximize profit but after that I attempt to cut that mode completely off which isn't always easy to do. Sometimes it takes some meditation, sometimes it takes a night of restful sleep. Some nights I might need 10 hours of sleep where on my days off it feels like I need 6 hours. I remember running 12 hour days and making sure to keep things hectic with drinking and carousing and running on 6 hours of non-restful sleep. It's almost like I was running on pure adrenalin but then the adrenalin wears off. Euphoria leads to burnout.

My message is the worldly life is a mirage. The ordinary life and this ordinary idea of happiness is not reality. If you aren't suffering or dissatisfied it is easy to disregard this message. That is if you aren't deluding yourself.

My brother got a new keyboard. I guess it lights up or something like that. He was all excited about this new keyboard. I guess he needed a new keyboard or maybe he didn't. It's like taking cocaine for the first time. Now, he will need to buy something else and that's what he has been doing. Him and his wife have a gigantic house that they bought with money they earned working for one of those criminal banks (aren't they all criminal it seems?) and it almost became a hobby of how to fill this house up with stuff. Many times he is at work late or working on Saturday building models to decide who they should give loans to. The only joy I really see in their lives is raising their son. It is kind of like built in altruism. There are also parts narcissism and vanity which aren't so good but I think the forcefulness of altruism is a good thing.

I just got the thought that a lot of the old people here are in their 30s. I started playing poker in 2005 or even before then in dorm rooms in 2004. I don't know how many people here are in their 20s or have these dreams of making it big in poker or corporate America or whatever. It's a mirage. It's a trap. This idea that I actually am still in corporate America killing it and trolling would appease a lot of the people here I think. We want the dreams to be a reality. I think the fact is we are all fellow sufferers all trying to figure out what to do about that. It's really interesting the different ways in which people try and deal with suffering and dissatisfaction. But, no, my days of killing it in corporate America so I can buy $3,000 desk lamps that sit in my brother's basement are over. Oh, the days. I had my desk lamp. I had my $100 candles. I had my $25 cigar. I had my Hennessey. I had my Macbook Pro and I would just sit and drink and smoke and smell and see and hear and you know on some nights there might have been some rapture. Then I am just clinging to that. It's not re-creatable. I don't have control over those states. That's the point. I don't have control over those states. I could do heroin for the first time. I would bet that that would be a pretty blissful state. Unfortunately, it would be impermanent and now maybe I am dope sick or am psychologically addicted to that blissful state. I really think the simple life is the way to go whatever that simplicity ends up being. Maybe not everyone has to renounce everything. We are addicted to sooo many things and don't even realize it. At least be aware of our attachments. Fellow sufferers! Our sufferings can be reduced!

On August 31 2018 14:24 RiKD wrote: My message is the worldly life is a mirage. The ordinary life and this ordinary idea of happiness is not reality. If you aren't suffering or dissatisfied it is easy to disregard this message. That is if you aren't deluding yourself. [...] This idea that I actually am still in corporate America killing it and trolling would appease a lot of the people here I think.

How is the 'worldly life' more or less of a mirage than anything else? The ordinary idea of happiness is that it's a state of chemicals in your brain, are you saying that's not reality?

Also don't understand the second part, why do you think you still being in corporate America would appease people?

The "worldly life" is far off in the distance. It's a sheen of water that isn't really there. We think we can quench our thirst. Therefore we should quench are thirst. But, our thirst is unquenchable. These competitive negotiators, hoarders, and certainly addicts in their own right! What are they actually successful at? Leading a useless life and acquiring stuff?

Ok. It's a state of chemicals in the brain but then what? The key here is that we can't exactly conjure these chemicals and they are impermanent. It's not reality that we can get married (impermanent), buy a house (impermanent) and have kids (impermanent) and that we will be in this blissful state through out. All three things I mentioned are myths. Get a high paying corporate job, get a nice car, buy a big screen tv: They are all myths and we sit there and we rationalize and we justify. This can be understood with the practice of meditation. Some moments are blissful, rapturous, or just happy feelings some moments just aren't. But, the key is to not get attached to those moments and not try to sit down and figure out how to conjure up those moments. There is an ice cream place in New Hampshire on the beach that has the best black raspberry ice cream on the planet. I can get 3 scoops and walk across the street to the beach and gaze at the full moon over the waters and this may make me happy or it may not but the clinging is the problem. Maybe I am in a total blissful state and then the next day I want to re-create that so I get another 3 scoops of black raspberry but it's not as good and I am in a crummy mood that I can't recreate the happiness from before.

Appease isn't the right word. What I meant was that I think a lot of people on LP want or wanted to be big shots at poker and now that that is not as realistic they want to be big shots in the corporate world. In 2005 I wanted to be Chip Reese or Phil Ivey. When I quit poker in 2010 I read so many books and autobiographies and blogs and tweets from/about big shots in the corporate world. That's not entirely accurate. Eh, actually it pretty much is. I was still quite lost in 2010 more so reading Dostoevsky, Sartre, Nietszche. In 2011 when I made my decision that I was going to go into business that's when I really went all-in. I think a story about an LP guy who quit poker and then was doing really well in corporate America would appeal to a lot of people here. It would propagate the Drrreeeaaammm. It is just a dream though. Being successful in corporate America is really quite difficult especially for someone like me. It's also rather useless and a waste of a life. Like I said earlier it's a lot of justifying and rationalizing purchases. If your job is useless and pretty terrible and you have to buy shiny stuff to try and coax the brain chemicals that is horrendous. You may even coax the happy brain chemicals but then what? Impermanence. You can buy a new pair of shoes to cure the blues but then you are just going to end up with a lot of shoes and maybe a resentment that it's no longer making you happy. This is the reality that I am talking about. The understanding.

I used to be obsessed with following my lust for pleasure. Chocolate croissant with a coffee, cigarette, spliff with another coffee, online poker, spliff, online poker, gravity bong, walk on the beach, red wine, Italian dinner, ecstasy, rave, marijuana when the sun comes up, marijuana, planet earth. It's really a horrible way to live. Many ways I have tried living turned out to be pretty bad. The Buddhist path is really not that great actually it's just less bad than the others. I am in a stage where I am renouncing things that I am in some way a little pissed about. Deep down I think I might want cigarettes, pastries, and coffee, cigarettes, red wine, and French food, a French woman, sex, and cigarettes. Then what? I've kind of been through this before. Humans have short memories. We are like rats in a cage that press buttons for food or for cocaine or for whatever.

On August 31 2018 22:43 bigredhoss wrote: Show nested quote + On August 31 2018 14:24 RiKD wrote: My message is the worldly life is a mirage. The ordinary life and this ordinary idea of happiness is not reality. If you aren't suffering or dissatisfied it is easy to disregard this message. That is if you aren't deluding yourself. [...] This idea that I actually am still in corporate America killing it and trolling would appease a lot of the people here I think. How is the 'worldly life' more or less of a mirage than anything else? The ordinary idea of happiness is that it's a state of chemicals in your brain, are you saying that's not reality? Also don't understand the second part, why do you think you still being in corporate America would appease people?

I think the ordinary idea of happiness is that it is achievable by the repetition of a certain variety of pleasures. These are pleasures that are generally seen as wholesome and obviously acceptable in the culture you've been brought up in (i.e. those are "worldly''). And so an ideal life is structured in a way to obtain those pleasures as much as possible. This sort of happiness is self-defeating, we go about it through vulgar hedonism and eventual burn out, rather than something involving restraint like Epicureanism. The other view of happiness is grounded on the idea of living a meaningful life, a life that we feel we have some degree of control over. Nozick came up with this thought experiment that is designed to show that our desires with regards to our own life are not simply about pursuing pleasure (i.e. it's not just about the pleasure chemicals in one's brain): the experience machine. Of course we can argue that in the end it's all chemicals and it's just that the second view of happiness gives you less pleasure chemicals but that in the end that is best for the person. But then this is really quite trivial and doesn't tell us much about how we should live if we want to be happy.

it's kind of weird to say happiness is just chemicals. When people refer to happiness they refer to the folk science concept: what we use it for in everyday life. we associate happiness with everyday observable phenomena; people's emotions, ect. To say happiness is brain chemicals is kind of like saying sailing is just air waves and force or driving is just combustion of chemicals.

Ofc chemical's are related to happiness in that brain activity, chemical levels can give us an idea about someone's happiness.

If i recall correctly there was a poll on nozicks thought experiment asking everyday people if they would want to use the experience machine to have the perfectly experienced life. I think most people said no. So that should tell you a lot about what people view as happiness. This may be the paper written on it. It's a bit broader;
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/09515089.2017.1406600

Rik:

Sure, everything is impermanent. I think you are conflating some societal norms with happiness though, or at least exaggerating the perceived connection. Some people may wish to be married, have kids, own a house and indeed increase their happiness by doing so. The vast majority of people who do these things don’t see them as a ticket to bliss the way you seem to be implying though. It seems like you are continually re-constructing the mentality of society (or misunderstanding, or selectively remembering) to make yourself appear wiser in comparison.

I do agree that attachment is often a detriment to sustainable happiness.

Re: propagating the dream if you were killing the corporate game – I dunno. Success is success, but I think the mindset of most poker players is more likely to glorify a more individualistic path like entrepreneurship of some kind. If anything the attitude is probably more reluctant acceptance to corporate career paths.

Loco/Rik:

I’ll try to explain what I think happiness is. Let’s consider two general states:

1. You feel peaceful; you have a steady inner confidence that has been cultivated through years of competently applying yourself towards efforts that are meaningful to you, as well as honest self-reflection which has given you a deep understanding of who you are. Your thoughts are clear and uncluttered.

2. You won the biggest poker pot of your life, looked some hot girl in the eyes and felt mutual attraction, etc. etc.

Roughly speaking I tend to associate happiness more with #1, and I think most of society would as well. However, I think ‘ideal happiness’ is probably some game theory-like balance of both. When I say “state of chemicals in your brain” I’m not just referring to dopamine rushes or whatever. I’m talking about whatever balance of chemicals induces the state in #1.

I checked the experience machine wiki and don’t really see the distinction Nozick is trying to make. From the article:

“Nozick asks us to imagine a machine that could give us whatever desirable or pleasurable experiences we could want.”

That’s an incredible amount of power we are granting this machine, much more than simply mimicking a dopamine rush. All the reasons given not to plug into the machine (e.g. “we want to do certain things, and not just have the experience of doing them”) are implicitly putting a limit on the machine’s abilities which is inconsistent with the premise of the earlier quote. i.e. it’s implying that the machine cannot arrange our brain chemistry in a way in which the difference between doing something and experiencing something is indecipherable.

On September 01 2018 06:15 Stroggoz wrote: it's kind of weird to say happiness is just chemicals. When people refer to happiness they refer to the folk science concept: what we use it for in everyday life. we associate happiness with everyday observable phenomena; people's emotions, ect. To say happiness is brain chemicals is kind of like saying sailing is just air waves and force or driving is just combustion of chemicals. Ofc chemical's are related to happiness in that brain activity, chemical levels can give us an idea about someone's happiness. If i recall correctly there was a poll on nozicks thought experiment asking everyday people if they would want to use the experience machine to have the perfectly experienced life. I think most people said no. So that should tell you a lot about what people view as happiness. This may be the paper written on it. It's a bit broader; https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/09515089.2017.1406600

It's not weird to say it's just chemicals, it's the logical conclusion when pressed for a rigid definition. People usually use abstractions when talking about happiness because they're not being pressed to define what happiness is. If we're going to discuss what it is we need to start with something objective, and it seems that pretty much any attempts to define it beyond brain chemicals are going to be subjective. I tried to include a more subjective version of what I think it is in my last post.

People's responses to the experiment don't say much about what they view as happiness, why do you think so? The most likely explanations for a majority of people choosing 'no' to the machine are:

1. Lack of imagination (specifically lack of ability to imagine that certain types of experiences through the machine don't lose anything when compared to experiencing them in real life)

2. Religious reasons

On September 01 2018 08:49 bigredhoss wrote: Rik: Sure, everything is impermanent. I think you are conflating some societal norms with happiness though, or at least exaggerating the perceived connection. Some people may wish to be married, have kids, own a house and indeed increase their happiness by doing so. The vast majority of people who do these things don’t see them as a ticket to bliss the way you seem to be implying though. It seems like you are continually re-constructing the mentality of society (or misunderstanding, or selectively remembering) to make yourself appear wiser in comparison. I do agree that attachment is often a detriment to sustainable happiness. Re: propagating the dream if you were killing the corporate game – I dunno. Success is success, but I think the mindset of most poker players is more likely to glorify a more individualistic path like entrepreneurship of some kind. If anything the attitude is probably more reluctant acceptance to corporate career paths. Loco/Rik: I’ll try to explain what I think happiness is. Let’s consider two general states: 1. You feel peaceful; you have a steady inner confidence that has been cultivated through years of competently applying yourself towards efforts that are meaningful to you, as well as honest self-reflection which has given you a deep understanding of who you are. Your thoughts are clear and uncluttered. 2. You won the biggest poker pot of your life, looked some hot girl in the eyes and felt mutual attraction, etc. etc. Roughly speaking I tend to associate happiness more with #1, and I think most of society would as well. However, I think ‘ideal happiness’ is probably some game theory-like balance of both. When I say “state of chemicals in your brain” I’m not just referring to dopamine rushes or whatever. I’m talking about whatever balance of chemicals induces the state in #1. I checked the experience machine wiki and don’t really see the distinction Nozick is trying to make. From the article: “Nozick asks us to imagine a machine that could give us whatever desirable or pleasurable experiences we could want.” That’s an incredible amount of power we are granting this machine, much more than simply mimicking a dopamine rush. All the reasons given not to plug into the machine (e.g. “we want to do certain things, and not just have the experience of doing them”) are implicitly putting a limit on the machine’s abilities which is inconsistent with the premise of the earlier quote. i.e. it’s implying that the machine cannot arrange our brain chemistry in a way in which the difference between doing something and experiencing something is indecipherable.

I disagree. I think most people see the societal norms as a ticket to happiness. Bliss is a strong word but ticket to a "happy life" is appropriate. I have my experience and knowledge on why I am speculative of the house with the white picket fence and two car garage, 2.5 kids, corporate job, and the house packed full of material items, a garage larger than the hut I wish to live in with no discernible space because of all the stuff, barely enough room for 2 cars, a similar junkyard for a basement, interior decoration magazines, People magazine, nights spent on netflix/hulu/hbo, It is natural for people like this to get defensive or rationalize or justify their choices or be deeply deluded by it all. Or, maybe they are not suffering so deeply. Part of this so called "wisdom" is MY experiences with life. It's also the wisdom of all the philosophy I have read including Buddhism. I can be a pretty intense person. In the past when I am dissatisfied I immediately go to suicide or blotting out the consciousness with drugs. I drank myself into a stupor everyday for years. I learn about Buddhism my first inclination is to abstain from everything and become a monk. My dad is the opposite. It's rare to see him dissatisfied. He had the high paying corporate job, the wife, the house, the kids, the company car, the country club membership, the vacations, all of it and seemed pretty content with it all. We are all just living life the best we can.

Very few people are free from suffering if any.

"1. You feel peaceful; you have a steady inner confidence that has been cultivated through years of competently applying yourself towards efforts that are meaningful to you, as well as honest self-reflection which has given you a deep understanding of who you are. Your thoughts are clear and uncluttered."

I tend to like this definition. I think people can be deluded in what is actually meaningful. If someone is looking for meaning in a relatively useless corporate job they may just find tiredness and undeadness rather than any peace. If one is looking for Nibbana (Enlightenment) through meditation and the Dhamma (Truth) from my experiences that is the true path. Although, I am somewhat speculative of Nibbana or unsure if it is actually attainable for me. Nibbana mostly just means freedom from suffering. I am unsure if it is actually possible for moments and much more speculative of stories of people living free of desires and suffering. Not that it couldn't be possible but this is the path for me. I have to find out for myself. Even if I just become more peaceful, reduce suffering, and reduce negative emotions that will be a positive outcome. This state you are talking about in the above quote again is very much impermanent for non-enlightened beings. The self-reflection and deep understanding doesn't seem to leave me although I can get deluded and confused. I am closer to the peace. I can tap into the peace more easily but again I am not at a point I can conjure peace at will. You keep defining happiness as something that can be prolonged or more or less permanent and that is just not the case. I don't do x, y, z and a switch gets flipped and now I am happy for 10 years. I know you don't mean this exactly it was just an exaggerated example. I can make wagers on what might make me happy. Going to the beach is likely to have more ev than stabbing myself with scissors but I have been miserable at the beach and burning myself with a candle in the past actually brought me some peace. It's why cutting is a thing. If I am blue I could watch some "Curb Your Enthusiasm" and it may cheer me up but what about later in the day when I experience minor withdrawals from that and now the show is no longer interesting. I could be at peace and understand myself very well and be at work and get slammed and tickets are more than I can even count and the barcode printer runs out of paper and I don't know how to change it or how I am even going to manage. This is a very dissatisfying state no matter how strong my inner peace is. Now, I can realize the impermanence of it and just do my best to be useful. I survived. I avoided many negative emotions. That's really all I can do. I can mediate. I can get enough sleep. I can meditate some more. I can study the Dhamma. But, even then any peace, rapture, or blissful states are fleeting.

^

Just get that money right hiems. Just get that conglomeration of material things right hiems. Then maybe that "hot" bartender will look your way. Man, if I could just get to $80,000/yr+ my life would be so great. Man, if I could just get to $120,000/yr+ my life would be so great. Go listen to some rap music and get the fuck out of here.